South Africa - CBL "Captive Bred Lion Hunt" progress

[mark-hunter]

The is a huge difference between releasing lions into a relatively small fenced property as a publicity stunt without future follow up vs the 24 lions introduced into Mozambique as a permanent conservation effort.

So, what is the difference?

In South Africa, fenced hunting areas are typical. How do we (on another continent) determeine the diference?
We also know, is that lion after release, wil start hunting very soon, generally after few days.
And after that will start getting all wild lion habbits in time. (territory, breeding, forming packs, etc)

From the perspective of overseas client, it is very hard to get to establish the actual difference, with limited resources.

The differences that I see at this moment are following:

- We have, wild managed lion, which is supposed to be living in a natural way, selfsustained in large fenced areas.

- we have lions raised in pen, and later released in large fenced areas, getting quickly all wild lion habbits.
And if this is true, than they do have conservation value.
Because they adapt. Release to wild can also be controlled, monitored, etc... from smaller enclosure to medium size property, then to large areas.

- and most probably, there are some bad practises like put an take,, releaseing just before the hunt in areas of smaller sizes, etc etc... giving indutry a bad rep, and zero conservation value.
But it is the bad practise that destroys conservation value, not the captive bred lions, that given the chance will adapt to wild very quickly.

 

[TSALA HUNTING SAFARIS]

Hi Guys

This is a very delicate and emotional subject and like all professions there are people that do it correctly within the laws of our country and then you get people that exploitation the industry for personal gain , the greenies would jump on this and create a terrible narrative around the industry.

What I can tell you with facts is that there has been captive bred lions released into the wild with success where they have bred and flourished without human intervention so much so that some of the pride members had to be moved again to other reserves.Proof that captive bred lions do have conservation value.

Each captive bred lion hunt in SA has a conservation levy added to be paid by the hunter that goes into a wild lion conservation fund used for research purposes.

Fact and proven that captive bred lions has a broader genetic diversity than wild lions.As said above this could certainly aid the Souther Africa lion population.

For reference I don't breed Lions nor do I have any commercial gain in such operations.Canned Lion hunting is against the law in SA , captive bred lion hunting has to adhere to strict protocols and laws in SA.We should be very careful not to confuse the two.

Good conversation lets respect each individual opinion.In the end we are all hunters and outdoorsman .

Regards

Rouan

 

[375Fox]

So, what is the difference?

In South Africa, fenced hunting areas are typical. How do we (on another continent) determeine the diference?
We also know, is that lion after release, wil start hunting very soon, generally after few days.
And after that will start getting all wild lion habbits in time. (territory, breeding, forming packs, etc)

From the perspective of overseas client, it is very hard to get to establish the actual difference, with limited resources.

The differences that I see at this moment are following:

- We have, wild managed lion, which is supposed to be living in a natural way, selfsustained in large fenced areas.

- we have lions raised in pen, and later released in large fenced areas, getting quickly all wild lion habbits.
And if this is true, than they do have conservation value.
Because they adapt. Release to wild can also be controlled, monitored, etc... from smaller enclosure to medium size property, then to large areas.

- and most probably, there are some bad practises like put an take,, releaseing just before the hunt in areas of smaller sizes, etc etc... giving indutry a bad rep, and zero conservation value.
But it is the bad practise that destroys conservation value, not the captive bred lions, that given the chance will adapt to wild very quickly.

I am against farmed lions, if there was any conservation value initially it’s no longer there. However, my comments on this thread started with correcting where the lions reintroduced to Mozambique came from, not hunting. The difference is the reintroduction of lions into Mozambique is a permanent conservation effort and you can still see updates on their progress. The YouTube video of SAPA releasing lions into a property may be a legitimate effort to establish a “wild managed” pride or it’s likely an attempt to make a nice YouTube video. We do not know what happened or is happening with those lions after they were released. If it went well, I would call it a temporary conservation effort at best. The landowner can decide they are too much trouble and have them hunted or removed at any time. That is the difference.

 

[mark-hunter]

@375Fox
I understand your point!

 

[Tanks]

....Canned Lion hunting is against the law in SA , captive bred lion hunting has to adhere to strict protocols and laws in SA.We should be very careful not to confuse the two...

I like the protocols that CBLs can not be hunted if they have been hand fed or petted by humans as cubs etc..

I think where RSA rules failed is the very short duration of time a CBL is released to the hunting area (and I understand why as a longer time would have been expensive). If the time was 180 days minimum for example, instead of ~72 hours then a lot of objections would have been eliminated not to mention the hunt being more challenging. One other thing I would have added would have been a minimum roaming property size based on habitat size found in the wild.

I don't think too many arguments would have been made against a CBL that has been roaming on a 100K hectares (for example) for 6 months or so. Yes, that would mean less lions available to hunt at a greater cost, but most likely still would have been less expensive than Zambia etc.. RSA outfitters used their PG philosophy (cheap and high volume hunting) to their detriment for lion hunts unfortunately.

 

[375Fox]

Each captive bred lion hunt in SA has a conservation levy added to be paid by the hunter that goes into a wild lion conservation fund used for research purposes.

Can you give more information on this? How much the levy is and where it’s actually going to?

 

[C.W. Richter]

But there are very very few of them

Yes and that's an objective statement. I've no time for the tired old misused R word.

 

[Frederik]

I watched Blood Lions for the first time last night although I saw some clips before.
I tell you what with media, sound and editing you could make a lamb look evil.

Anyway afterwards I concluded we as hunters will watch programs on both sides of the spectrum conservation and hunting programs on youtube and television. Then we as hunters will not picket, send death threats and attacks on any greenies. So who is truly then the guardians of the animals on earth defintely not the greenies.

I love their name first it was tree huggers now greenies my definition of greenies "Green of jealously that we enjoy life and connect and have a special bond with nature as we form part of it!"

 

[Philip Glass]

What do you smart guys want to call it if it’s not racism? Putting one animal above ALL others! I am open to your suggestions but NO ONE in the industry is standing up in his manner.
It’s ok to pen raise: whitetail, all Texas exotics, Sable, buffalo, springbuck (where do you think color variants came from?), all PG, all wild sheep, all wild goats, ……………….
BUT NOT A LION.
It’s a furry animal we make children’s toys out of so you can’t do that.

You have a better term? let’s hear it please.

Regards,
Philip

 

[TSALA HUNTING SAFARIS]

Can you give more information on this? How much the levy is and where it’s actually going to?

@375Fox

Apologies I can't recall the specific amount.

Taken from South African Predator Ass Norms and Standards.

SECTION E: CONSERVATION

The contribution to conservation of lions in the wild is an international (USFWS) requirement for the hunting of ranch lions.
18. Contribution to Conservation of the Species in the Wild

18.1. Traceability of the lions from which the contribution is made by DNA profile & microchip.
18.2. Breeding/ Keeping contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund.
18.3. Hunting contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund by means of the hunting tag purchased for each lion hunted.
18.4. Derivate contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund by means of the utilisation tag purchased for each lion from which derivatives are sold.
18.5. All contribution are to be managed through the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund.
18.6. The fund and projects it supports must be thoroughly documented and conform to legal requirements.

Hope this helps

Rouan

 

[375Fox]

@375Fox

Apologies I can't recall the specific amount.

Taken from South African Predator Ass Norms and Standards.

SECTION E: CONSERVATION

The contribution to conservation of lions in the wild is an international (USFWS) requirement for the hunting of ranch lions.
18. Contribution to Conservation of the Species in the Wild

18.1. Traceability of the lions from which the contribution is made by DNA profile & microchip.
18.2. Breeding/ Keeping contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund.
18.3. Hunting contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund by means of the hunting tag purchased for each lion hunted.
18.4. Derivate contribution to the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund by means of the utilisation tag purchased for each lion from which derivatives are sold.
18.5. All contribution are to be managed through the SAPA Conservation and Development Fund.
18.6. The fund and projects it supports must be thoroughly documented and conform to legal requirements.

Hope this helps

Rouan

Thanks for posting, I was unaware of this. Had they gone this route and showed conservation value by putting money back in to worthy projects I wouldn’t be so against CBL lion hunting. However the initial message was hunting CBL lions was conservation by taking pressure off wild lion populations which is completely contradictory to the message of limited sustainable hunting is conservation. These are the projects being supported and this is the amount being contributed would have been a much better message to put out there in the beginning.

 

[Milo]

What do you smart guys want to call it if it’s not racism? Putting one animal above ALL others! I am open to your suggestions but NO ONE in the industry is standing up in his manner.
It’s ok to pen raise: whitetail, all Texas exotics, Sable, buffalo, springbuck (where do you think color variants came from?), all PG, all wild sheep, all wild goats, ……………….
BUT NOT A LION.
It’s a furry animal we make children’s toys out of so you can’t do that.

You have a better term? let’s hear it please.

Regards,
Philip

The term that has been coined is "speciesism," but it means the same thing.

 

[Frederik]

Met with Hans de Klerk yesterday close to the airport at African Sky we had a brief chat and I finalized my hunt for the lioness. Next step the permit.

I am sure I'm in good hands from the brief meeting very pleasant and made me more exited.
Next week on the range to double check my loads which I already have in place. Have hunted 3 animals with my lott in last 12 months so far Red Hartebees, Zebra and Blue Wildebeest.
Fired close if not 200 round through my CZ 550 since first firing it May 2020.

480gr Woodleigh SN at 2180fps.

Only recovered the one bullet from frontal on the Red Hartebeest at a range of 120 meters opened up to just over an inch and almost exited, found under the skin in hind leg.

 

[DWB]

I watched Blood Lions for the first time last night although I saw some clips before.
I tell you what with media, sound and editing you could make a lamb look evil.

Anyway afterwards I concluded we as hunters will watch programs on both sides of the spectrum conservation and hunting programs on youtube and television. Then we as hunters will not picket, send death threats and attacks on any greenies. So who is truly then the guardians of the animals on earth defintely not the greenies.

I love their name first it was tree huggers now greenies my definition of greenies "Green of jealously that we enjoy life and connect and have a special bond with nature as we form part of it!"

Right before we almost got arrested ;D

 

[Nyati]

@Frederik , you will enjoy your lion hunt, I have been on two such hunts with friends, (not shot the lion myself), and I guarantee it is a unique experience

 

[Frederik]

@Frederik , you will enjoy your lion hunt, I have been on two such hunts with friends, (not shot the lion myself), and I guarantee it is a unique experience

Thank you Nyati, yes I have been on hunts like it before but there is a difference when suddely its you going to shoot and know what to expect, very exiting.

 

[MarkB]

Thank you Nyati, yes I have been on hunts like it before but there is a difference when suddely its you going to shoot and know what to expect, very exiting.

I am 100% same as you from your thoughts on this thread posts. I do not need to go down any rabbit hole with morals, ethics or feelings. All Phillip Glass states is very true, a slippery slope some willingly ride. There's a saying about throwing rocks in a glass shop. We should all heed that as HUNTERS, we are loosing the war. If its legal I WANT to do it. Right now CBL is legal and I have only to wait till 1 Aug this year to make lifetime memories. My finances are not at a point where any wild lion hunt will present, besides one wild lion hunt would equal another 10? safaris to awesome Africa. I have harvested 2 leopards, both on bait from blinds, they were outstanding experiences for various reasons, but not on a scale of what I expect this summers hunt to be, after this Augusts hunt I will have a CBL perspective for comparisons, and being Canadian followed by a life size mount to spend the rest of my life looking at and respecting him.

Enjoy your hunt.

MB

 

[mark-hunter]

It’s ok to pen raise: whitetail, all Texas exotics, Sable, buffalo, springbuck (where do you think color variants came from?), all PG, all wild sheep, all wild goats, ……………….
BUT NOT A LION.

I dont have any better term, but I think that global CBL discussion came from average western perception.
Herbivores, mankind hunts (or raise as domestic) for ages for purpose of meat. No issue whith that.

Predators, carnivores, in general we do not eat. Historically they are hunted either as a pests, or as direct danger to men.
So, if CBL lion is not a direct threat, and is not killing sheep and cattle, hunting is sometimes hard to justify.

So, this pereception remains in general public, and it will be very hard to reason with somebody who is in start biased against this practise. And it is all inflated by modern media and internet. SO, it is more and more diffcult to wrap the pracitse in a language acceptable to average, not informed, urban non hunter. So, public becomes irritated, and emotional. Law makers react, to keep all politically correct.

 

[Frederik]

Thanks MB!!

 

[Frederik]

Went to the range yesterday an found that after roughly 200 rounds of lott and the rifle settling in the stock the Actions screws were loos by about half a turn. Think the weather could also have had an effect anyway the rifle was shooting 5 1/2" low at 50 meters

Which gave me clarity why I shot like crap on our BASA shoot everything was low.
So afer tightening the screws and fine tuning my Trijicon SRO I am happy to say my practise rounds and my lion hunitng load is shooting 1/2' apart from each other at 50 meters.

Lesson learned, taking a picture and keeping it on record of my action screws and make sure they are tight before a hunt and a shoot.

I might let the rifle get bedded properly at a later stage.