Tim Sundles 4 shots of 600 NE into Buff

[JG26Irish_2]

That was THE video that I talked about. They waited soooo long after the bull rose to its feet before taking the 1st shot with the 600NE. I think the range on the first two shots was 20-30y at most.

It seemed that the hunter had froze until Mark told him to shoot. Up to that point, he had not even shouldered his weapon. Not sure what he was waiting for? Then when told, he threw up the rifle very fast and spooked the bull which moved as he shot. I felt that the hunter rushed the 1st shot and the 2nd shot and then fumbled around too long to effectively take a 3rd shot. I do not want to be too critical as I was not there and things happen.

Regarding the issue of hydrostatic shock? I have seen little evidence that the "shock" effect from shooting a large animal does any serious permanent damage to the body. Once I shot a deer with a 130g Nosler ballistic tip from a 270 at close range (40y). A frontal shot that I rushed and hit high and left and the bullet hit the shoulder and skimmed outside the top of the ribs and destroyed a 6" diameter portion of the back straps. A chunk entered the ribs and ruptured one lung which proved fatal. That is the only time I saw a devastating effect like that.

Last year, I shot a buck with a 150g Fed bonded 7mm Mag at 125y with a broadside shot. This was a pass thru. Hit both lungs and top of heart. Made a 2" wound in the top of heart and burst both lungs but the exit wound was only about 2" and not that impressive. Results however, were quite impressive as the buck dropped in its tracks, attempted to get up but was unable and I hit it with a 2nd shot to end it. If a 3000fps + mag does not cause hydrostatic shock, then few others will.

The year prior, I shot a buck with my 375HH using a 250g TBBC. Result was a dead deer but the internal damage was no worse than my 270 or 7mm mag. In fact, I wondered if the bullet had expanded at all. Still, all three of these example bucks now hang on my wall in a place of honor. Correction, two are on the wall. The 3rd is still at the taxidermist.

 

[Safari Dave]

Try out a 257 w
I have shot deer in the shoulder and had the stomach busted open when cleaning them.
It’s only happen a few times.
Normally when expecting a 300 yd shot and the deer desided to come out 50 yds are less.
The bullets path were stright through both shoulder.
Something busted the stomach.
I don’t think it happens reliably enough to count on it but I do think it happens

After giving it more thought, I concur.

I agree that it does happen on occasion, but you can't depend on it.

 

[sgt_zim]

After giving it more thought, I concur.

I agree that it does happen on occasion, but you can't depend on it.

Yep. There are nearly an infinite number of variables at play - distance to target which of course affects impact velocity; shot angle; and bullet construction, just to name 3.

We know with absolute certainty that 2 holes means more damage and bleeding than 1 hole. That can absolutely be counted on. So endeavor to take a shot that'll make 2 holes.

 

[Tradmark]

Used the 257 weatherby last summer in africa. In each the lil 101gr lrx made an 8-10” path of destruction in the lungs on animals from bushbuck up to eland. That is hydraulic shock at play. Heres a deer shot at 200 yds with a swift scirocco 130gr out of my 6.5:300. The hole you see is big enough for my fist to easily pass into the chest cavity. All the ribs except the first rib were separated from the sternum from the chest expansion.

 

[grand veneur]

That was THE video that I talked about. They waited soooo long after the bull rose to its feet before taking the 1st shot with the 600NE. I think the range on the first two shots was 20-30y at most.

It seemed that the hunter had froze until Mark told him to shoot. Up to that point, he had not even shouldered his weapon. Not sure what he was waiting for? Then when told, he threw up the rifle very fast and spooked the bull which moved as he shot. I felt that the hunter rushed the 1st shot and the 2nd shot and then fumbled around too long to effectively take a 3rd shot. I do not want to be too critical as I was not there and things happen.

...

I assume you mean the video in post # 40.

The hunter next to Mark Sullivan is Cal Pappas, who was a big fan of the cartridge 600 Nitro Express. Himself owned one or more rifles of that caliber and wrote a book about rifles caliber 600 Nitro Express. I don't know why he did not shoot when the buffalo was perfectly positioned, but Cal Pappas passed away suddenly not so long ago, so to preserve his memory, it is advisable to refrain from criticism.

 

[Philip Glass]

This is nothing new. I've seen it over and over again. The myth of needing to shoot buffalo with solids is likely to blame. Put a TSX or two into him and done!

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I assume you mean the video in post # 40.

The hunter next to Mark Sullivan is Cal Pappas, who was a big fan of the cartridge 600 Nitro Express. Himself owned one or more rifles of that caliber and wrote a book about rifles caliber 600 Nitro Express. I don't know why he did not shoot when the buffalo was perfectly positioned, but Cal Pappas passed away suddenly not so long ago, so to preserve his memory, it is advisable to refrain from criticism.

I did not know Cal but he was well known in the hunting and shooting community. Certainly not a neophyte to the big doubles. And as I stated, "I do not want to be too critical as I was not there and things happen." But, I am not a Mark Sullivan fan and that clouds my judgement somewhat. That is based only on his buffalo hunting videos. He might be the nicest, best PH on the planet. Just seems that he likes to provoke a charge so he (or his client) can get his rocks off with the big double. Which BTW, he seems to shoot very well. Just my opinion and it could be totally off the mark. Nothing beats a big double when facing a charge from DG at close range. But, IMO it is not the best choice for the client who is taking that first shot. For those who use em, more power to ya.

Lots of things can go sideways in a hunting situation and with DG that is even more true. My PH had a hunt with an acquaintance of mine a couple of years ago when a Cape Buff soaked up a total of 8 impacts (not misses) with 375 and 458 at close range before giving up. Unexpected can happen.

 

[Rafiki]

This has got to be one of the worst cases of product marketing I've ever seen.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Used the 257 weatherby last summer in africa. In each the lil 101gr lrx made an 8-10” path of destruction in the lungs on animals from bushbuck up to eland. That is hydraulic shock at play. Heres a deer shot at 200 yds with a swift scirocco 130gr out of my 6.5:300. The hole you see is big enough for my fist to easily pass into the chest cavity. All the ribs except the first rib were separated from the sternum from the chest expansion.

What a waste! Why not shoot it with an RPG?

 

[HankBuck]

Try out a 257 w
I have shot deer in the shoulder and had the stomach busted open when cleaning them.
It’s only happen a few times.
Normally when expecting a 300 yd shot and the deer desided to come out 50 yds are less.
The bullets path were stright through both shoulder.
Something busted the stomach.
I don’t think it happens reliably enough to count on it but I do think it happens

@Flbt - maybe it was just a Gut Shot….and a fragment struck the Shoulder??

 

[HankBuck]

Used the 257 weatherby last summer in africa. In each the lil 101gr lrx made an 8-10” path of destruction in the lungs on animals from bushbuck up to eland. That is hydraulic shock at play. Heres a deer shot at 200 yds with a swift scirocco 130gr out of my 6.5:300. The hole you see is big enough for my fist to easily pass into the chest cavity. All the ribs except the first rib were separated from the sternum from the chest expansion.

@Tradmark - “Hydraulic” Shock is when your Truck is up on a Lift and while you’re changing the oil it COLLAPSES on top of you ….you’re SHOCKED ! (and F—ked).
Hydrostatic Shock is much less serious !

 

[Rifleman97]

Used the 257 weatherby last summer in africa. In each the lil 101gr lrx made an 8-10” path of destruction in the lungs on animals from bushbuck up to eland. That is hydraulic shock at play. Heres a deer shot at 200 yds with a swift scirocco 130gr out of my 6.5:300. The hole you see is big enough for my fist to easily pass into the chest cavity. All the ribs except the first rib were separated from the sternum from the chest expansion.

Energy is mass times velocity squared. A lot of people doubt the difference velocity can make in actual real world damage to game.

This is what happens when a half inch piece of plastic hits a solid block of aluminum at 15,000 mph

While our guns don’t go anywhere near that speed, it shows that velocity really does give a boost in real world damage.
Anyone else who has used a 257 weatherby will note that it does not leave a .257 diameter hole, or even a hole the width of the expanded bullet. Usually the hole is much larger, often times softball sized exits like you show there.

When I’ve killed game with magnum 12 gauge brenneke slugs, the exit is usually 1-1.5 times the diameter of the bullet, whereas the weatherby is many times the diameter.

 

[Tradmark]

Everything about this topic went off the rails years ago when a combination of things happened. 1) roy weatherby stated something to the effect that if a bullet goes fast enough it will kill an animal wherever you hit it. 2) the bullets of the time couldnt handle the velocities those cartridges produced and most shooters couldnt handle the recoil of the larger calibers weatherby had. The response to this was just stupid when they said velocity just doesnt matter.

 

[Carnivore hunter]

Everything about this topic went off the rails years ago when a combination of things happened. 1) roy weatherby stated something to the effect that if a bullet goes fast enough it will kill an animal wherever you hit it. 2) the bullets of the time couldnt handle the velocities those cartridges produced and most shooters couldnt handle the recoil of the larger calibers weatherby had. The response to this was just stupid when they said velocity just doesnt matter.

378 WBY?

Has anyone ever built a custom rifle stock setup for the 378 WBY with a muzzle brake to tame the recoil?

 

[CoElkHunter]

Energy is mass times velocity squared. A lot of people doubt the difference velocity can make in actual real world damage to game.

This is what happens when a half inch piece of plastic hits a solid block of aluminum at 15,000 mphView attachment 686481

While our guns don’t go anywhere near that speed, it shows that velocity really does give a boost in real world damage.
Anyone else who has used a 257 weatherby will note that it does not leave a .257 diameter hole, or even a hole the width of the expanded bullet. Usually the hole is much larger, often times softball sized exits like you show there.

When I’ve killed game with magnum 12 gauge brenneke slugs, the exit is usually 1-1.5 times the diameter of the bullet, whereas the weatherby is many times the diameter.

I’ll bite. How did someone/something get a piece of plastic to go 15K/hour? Incredible damage.

 

[Cucuy]

Don’t know, but if the projectile doesn’t weigh much I’ll take one.

 

[grand veneur]

A projectile must retain enough kinetic energy to continue moving for a long time, even in a medium, no matter how strong it is. This is achieved primarily through the speed and mass of the projectile. The caliber of a projectile does not play the primary role; the length and diameter are determined by the weight of the projectile and also by internal ballistic parameters. How high the impact velocity is and how much more a projectile must be very strong designed. Anti tank ammo is a good example.

For shooting game according this concepts, at some point only solid bullets will be considered. Deformation or fragmentation of a bullet no longer play a role, on the contrary, can have a negative impact. What kills is the great temporary cavitation that results by the use of such high velocity bullets, but a cavitation which has to occur on the right place, meaning after a good shot placement. There is primary no schock, otherwise the initial belief that it is enough to hit a game somewhere to incapacitate it would be true, which is not the case. The discussion about the working of the 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridge illustrates some of this.

The Weatherby concept was therefore not bad in theory and for this reason the cartridge 378 Weatherby Magnum was rightly considered the maximum needed to kill the heaviest animals. Theoretically, that may be true, but in practice, for a lot of reasons, things turned out differently. You cannot mix highly modern ballistic concepts with old traditional hunting and shooting concepts. This is also the case when talking about the old cartridge 600 Nitro Express.