Why no lever-action rifle for Elephants?

[Tam Dl]

Exactly . Well said. Too many people use today’s standard to judge people’s actions in the past .

At this point, the "past" has rolled up to ideas from about 12 months ago.

 

[Tam Dl]

Yes but it has been done. one of the members on this forum killed an elephant with a 454 cassul, and if I'm not mistaken the ph didn't fire a shot

I don't know how often it happens on caned hunts, but the idea in a DG hunt is you can handle the situation from soup to nuts. Pistols are really woeful in that regard. Unless we are talking short rifles. The lever can come close to being up there with the bolt.

Howard Hill, as the story goes, longbow shot an elephant frontally, in what in any reasonable rifle shot would have been a brain shot. He got 16 inches of penetration into 18 inches of skull. The PH had to clean up the mess. Not blaming Howard, someone had to try it. With todays gear that is about 4 times as powerful on a draw weight basis, and could be more rugged, it is probably possible, but you would still need to be backed.

I did read a story from a guy who shot all 20+ NA game animals. On his polar bear hunt, the guides rifle was not brought to the party, and he did manage to pin cushion a polar, while holding him off with heavy longbow fire. And got the kill and the save. Not recommending it, but he was playing the DG game to the full, if reports are to be believed.

 

[Tam Dl]

back in the day, the answer was, they didn't exist in a proper format,

Just one small addition to an excellent post. Back in the day, say 1895, there were a lot of guys using light solids to shoot the biggest game. The names and calibers are well known, sometimes as small as the 6.5x55. Therefore, the Winchester 1895 in the Krag getitng 2300 fps at 180 grain, and 2600 at 150 grain. The Russian contract 1895 were in the 7.62×54mmR, about equivalent to the 7.62 NATO and a few hundred FPS higher in velocity, could have all served in the hands of Bell, or others.

 

[crs]

Alaska Luke said "Here is what I want to see. I want a Model 94 in 444 Marlin with really nice open sites and a McMillan style fiberglass stock that is glass bedded. "

My response is "Why not try the Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester? The .405 is competitive with the .444 and is proven in Africa with 300 grain and 400 grain Bullets. "
With proper bullets, it can take game from Blackbuck to elephant (an d has).
Also fast handling and with recoil pad and Magnaport, what is missing?

 

[leslie hetrick]

my winchester 94 big bore timber carbine in .444 marlin with a ported barrel. shoots very well, but is very loud. would i shoot a elephant with it, only as a last resort if it was me or the elephant.

 

[superdutch]

Check out wild west guns co-pilot in .457 wwg. It is basically a very hot 45-70, but also gets a much better trigger, carbon fiber stock and better sights. I don't know that it would be my go to elephant gun, but is a powerful little package.

 

[C.W. Richter]

The BLR has been made into a 458 Win Mag. Find an old steel receiver model and a gunsmith known for it and maybe $3k-$5k and it can be done.

And have it barreled in 416 chatfield Taylor (2450 feet per second/400 grains-just like every other 416!) I believe one of the issues with lever guns very similar to pump actions is that the extraction system may not be as strong and reliable as the bolt when using more modern high pressure cartridges. Have seen a pile of DG shot with old big bore straight wall cartridges but typically in a single (or double) shot sharps type rifle. You have to get close if you plan on doing that!

 

[TTundra]

And have it barreled in 416 chatfield Taylor (2450 feet per second/400 grains-just like every other 416!) I believe one of the issues with lever guns very similar to pump actions is that the extraction system may not be as strong and reliable as the bolt when using more modern high pressure cartridges. Have seen a pile of DG shot with old big bore straight wall cartridges but typically in a single (or double) shot sharps type rifle. You have to get close if you plan on doing that!

Last I checked, they were taking the 450 Marlin barrel assume from a takedown BLR and mating it to a 300 win receiver and rechambering. That made the east amount of work, but needed two guns. I suppose you may have a 300 and 458 takedown system and could have ordered a new 450 Marlin barrel assembly from Browning and sold that rifle back off. Now that the 450 Marlin takedown are discontinued, it may not be as easy to find everything

 

[xausa]

So when it comes to elephant hunting, the big debate seems to be a bolt or double. However, I think there are benefits that the lever-action style rifle has over the other 2.

Not only would a lever-action rifle beat a double in ammo capacity, but it would also beat a bolt rifle in speed as you would only need to do 2 movements of the hand to reload instead of 4, making it better for tight situations. And while a double rifle can shoot 2 rounds as fast as the hunter needs them, it's still only w and a 4 barrel rifle would be grossly cumbersome.

So my question is this. Why has no-one made a lever-action rifle based specifically made for thick-skinned, big-boned dangerous game rounds? I know the 45-70 can be used for that sometimes, but from what I've read, it's more adept at NA dangerous game and not as recommended as something like a .458 or 500 NE.

I have waded through all ten pages of commentary and have a few thoughts which I don't believe have been expressed.

First there is the question of a lever action versus a bolt action where speed is concerned. I don't know whether the writer was ever a competetive shooter, but in NRA large bore competition, where the ranges vary from two to six hundred yards and scopes are not allowed, one half of the shots are fired rapid fire. In both the 200 and 300 yard series, the competetor starts in a standing position, with the rifle locked and loaded. Whe the targets appear, he has a certain length of time to go into position, fired two or five shots, reload with eight or five cartridges and fire them. The clock starts when the targets appear. During that period of time, the shooter must assume the required position, sitting or prone, and reload from the belt or from the ground, using stripper clips in the case of a bolt action rifle and en bloc clips in the case of an M1 rifle or a detachable magazine in the case of an M14 or M16 rifle.

The shooters who choose bolt action rifles generally shoot higher scores than those with the semi-automatic rifles. They are certainly not handicapped by shooting a bolt action rifle.

The bolt action rifle shooter generally uses only two movements to operate his bolt. sweeping his open hand to the rear, raising the bolt handle with the index finger and bringing the bolt to the rear. Closing the bolt is generally done with the thumb, which lowers the handle when the bolt is all the way forward.

I began competetive shooting soon after earning my commission in the Marine Corps in the summer of 1960. My "match rifle" was a much altered 1903 Springfield. Although my training as a Marine had been with the M1 rifle, I had little difficulty in acquiring the skills required with a bolt action rifle. The more precise sighting equipment on my bolt gun (Lyman 48 receiver sight, Redfield Olympic match front sight) reduced the time needed to acquire and fire at the target, making up for any disadvantage caused by manual bolt operation.

These skills have stood me in good stead in hunting situations, allowing me to hit a Cape buffalo four times in the shoulder as it ran past me. I was using my .505 SRE bolt action rifle, which weighs only 8 3/4 pounds, so a certain amount of time was taken between shots recovering from the recoil. The cartridge duplicates the performance of a .500 NE, a 570 FMJ bullet at 2150 fps muzzle velocity. The buffalo was killed instantly.

Another time I was called upon to deal with an aggressive black rhino at very close range and I was able to put four shots into him as well, although in that case the animal managed to make about 75 yards farther before collapsing and expiring.

The bolt rifle I was using was built on a P14 Enfield action, converted to cock on opening. It was sighted with a Lyman 48 receiver sight and a Redfield ramp with Sourdough front sight. Hundreds of rounds of cast bullet reduced loads had gone down range in practice sessions preparing for such situations.

Mention has been made of primary extraction, which is a term which may need explaining. When a Mauser type action is loaded, the bolt pushes the cartridge forward as far as it will go and then the bolt is turned, engaging the locking lugs. However, the locking lugs are not machined exactly perpendicular to the bolt body. They are slightly angled, so as to conform to the slightly angled faces of the locking lug recesses, which means that the bolt and cartridge are moved slightly forward as the locking lugs engage. The reverse occurs when the bolt is opened, so that the last franction of an inch of bolt travel is subject to a mechanical advantage in the neighborhood of 10 to 1. This gives the action the capability of seating a cartridge which might be slightly oversize or dirty, where an ordinary push forward would not suffice. This means that the bolt action rifle is better equipped to deal with actual hunting conditions than rifles without this advantage, such as lever actions. The only lever action that I am aware of which enjoys this advantage is the Winchester Model 88, and action which in essence is a lever actuated bolt action.

When I received my Krieghoff Teck O/U double rifle from the dealer, it would readily accept factory .375 H&H cartridges, but stubbornly refused to extract and eject them. The .458 WM Magnum barrel set which came with the rifle gave no such problem. Applying additional force to the extractors caused some movement, but also threatened to break the extractors. A trip back to the Krieghoff factory solved the problem, although I never did know the cause of the difficulty. The rifle has functioned perfectly since then, now over 50 years ago.

My experience with lever actions, which includes Winchester Model 86's, 92 and 94 and Savage Model 99's, leads me to conclude that the extraction capability of those rifles is about the same as that of a Wincester 1885 sincle shot or a Sharps Borschardt, both of which I have extensive experience with.

My favorite lever action, a Model 99 Savage, feeds cartridges flawlessly from its revolving magazine, but has been known to give difficulty with extraction. I would not choose it, or any other lever action rifle, with the possible exception of the aforementioned Winchester Model 88, for any dangerous game situation.

 

[crs]

Well written and said. Thank you.

In all my several years of shooting a variety of rifle actions including break action, bolt action, slide action, auto loader action, and lever action, the only extraction problem I have ever had was caused by too hot a load of the wrong powder. After the action cooled, it worked properly. I pulled those bullets, disposed of the powder, and advised the hand loader of the mistake. The person that had loaded that ammo later successfully used that rifle to take DG with properly loaded ammo. That sort of overheating can and has happened with many types of rifle actions. It pays to know your rifle and your ammo BEFORE the hunt or other important engagement.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[John P.]

Well darn. Snowing at the farm today (26 Jan 2021) and I am sitting by the wood stove, scrolling through AH and ran across his thread. 18 inches of new snow today and my 74 year old joints needed something to do inside.

First, I will not argue pros/cons of a lever gun. But the following is a short description of a 50 Caliber I worked with some 25 or so years ago. 9-1/2 pounds. Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock along with a thick Sorbothane pad. Stock is extensively reinforced with a through bolt. Tangs are reinforced with a "bedding pillar" and have a larger screw than original.

The one on top. Note the barrel contour.

In the beginning:

Smoking!

The little 9 inch South Bend got some action:

And some vertical milling:

On left, the 50 case with a 458 Win Mag case up ended

Center, 458 Win with a hard cast

Right, the 50 with a 450 Barnes.

The fatter 50 case has more case capacity than the 458 win or the 50 Alaskan.

45/70 left, the big 50 right.

M98 test gun with a strain gauge over the chamber, using the Oehler system. Chamber pressure and velocity at the pull of the trigger!

Oh Yea!

Setting up in the vertical mill to mill a groove in the barrel for the magazine tube.

The Bronze custom on the right is 470 grains, not 375 as written on the card.

This thing was way too expensive in man hours for me to attempt another on the Marlin receiver. Feeding was a nightmare. A lot of internal work required. But the rifle is reliable, will feed in any position including upside down. If one studies the internals of the receiver when cycling cartridges, yes Virginia, it is CRF.

I am not a elephant hunter and never have been to Africa. Would I go after a bull with the rifle? Yes, with an experienced Elephant Hunter backing me up with a .500 double.

Oh, the Oehler stuff: 5500 ft/lbs at 41,000 psi.

Would I build another? Yes, but on a Win 71. It will handle the 500 Nitro case with a bit of shortening.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Well darn. Snowing at the farm today (26 Jan 2021) and I am sitting by the wood stove, scrolling through AH and ran across his thread. 18 inches of new snow today and my 74 year old joints needed something to do inside.

First, I will not argue pros/cons of a lever gun. But the following is a short description of a 50 Caliber I worked with some 25 or so years ago. 9-1/2 pounds. Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock along with a thick Sorbothane pad. Stock is extensively reinforced with a through bolt. Tangs are reinforced with a "bedding pillar" and have a larger screw than original.

View attachment 443696

The one on top. Note the barrel contour.

View attachment 443684

In the beginning:

View attachment 443693

Smoking!

View attachment 443695

The little 9 inch South Bend got some action:

View attachment 443692

View attachment 443689


And some vertical milling:

View attachment 443694

On left, the 50 case with a 458 Win Mag case up ended

View attachment 443686

Center, 458 Win with a hard cast

View attachment 443687

Right, the 50 with a 450 Barnes.

The fatter 50 case has more case capacity than the 458 win or the 50 Alaskan.

45/70 left, the big 50 right.

View attachment 443688

M98 test gun with a strain gauge over the chamber, using the Oehler system. Chamber pressure and velocity at the pull of the trigger!

View attachment 443690

Oh Yea!
View attachment 443691

Setting up in the vertical mill to mill a groove in the barrel for the magazine tube.

View attachment 443697

The Bronze custom on the right is 470 grains, not 375 as written on the card.

View attachment 443685

This thing was way too expensive in man hours for me to attempt another on the Marlin receiver. Feeding was a nightmare. A lot of internal work required. But the rifle is reliable, will feed in any position including upside down. If one studies the internals of the receiver when cycling cartridges, yes Virginia, it is CRF.

I am not a elephant hunter and never have been to Africa. Would I go after a bull with the rifle? Yes, with an experienced Elephant Hunter backing me up with a .500 double.

Oh, the Oehler stuff: 5500 ft/lbs at 41,000 psi.

Would I build another? Yes, but on a Win 71. It will handle the 500 Nitro case with a bit of shortening.

Cool project! What was the parent case for your cartridge?

 

[AustinM]

Well darn. Snowing at the farm today (26 Jan 2021) and I am sitting by the wood stove, scrolling through AH and ran across his thread. 18 inches of new snow today and my 74 year old joints needed something to do inside.

First, I will not argue pros/cons of a lever gun. But the following is a short description of a 50 Caliber I worked with some 25 or so years ago. 9-1/2 pounds. Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock along with a thick Sorbothane pad. Stock is extensively reinforced with a through bolt. Tangs are reinforced with a "bedding pillar" and have a larger screw than original.

View attachment 443696

The one on top. Note the barrel contour.

View attachment 443684

In the beginning:

View attachment 443693

Smoking!

View attachment 443695

The little 9 inch South Bend got some action:

View attachment 443692

View attachment 443689


And some vertical milling:

View attachment 443694

On left, the 50 case with a 458 Win Mag case up ended

View attachment 443686

Center, 458 Win with a hard cast

View attachment 443687

Right, the 50 with a 450 Barnes.

The fatter 50 case has more case capacity than the 458 win or the 50 Alaskan.

45/70 left, the big 50 right.

View attachment 443688

M98 test gun with a strain gauge over the chamber, using the Oehler system. Chamber pressure and velocity at the pull of the trigger!

View attachment 443690

Oh Yea!
View attachment 443691

Setting up in the vertical mill to mill a groove in the barrel for the magazine tube.

View attachment 443697

The Bronze custom on the right is 470 grains, not 375 as written on the card.

View attachment 443685

This thing was way too expensive in man hours for me to attempt another on the Marlin receiver. Feeding was a nightmare. A lot of internal work required. But the rifle is reliable, will feed in any position including upside down. If one studies the internals of the receiver when cycling cartridges, yes Virginia, it is CRF.

I am not a elephant hunter and never have been to Africa. Would I go after a bull with the rifle? Yes, with an experienced Elephant Hunter backing me up with a .500 double.

Oh, the Oehler stuff: 5500 ft/lbs at 41,000 psi.

Would I build another? Yes, but on a Win 71. It will handle the 500 Nitro case with a bit of shortening.

Did you do the work on the Marlin yourself? It reminds me of Mic McPherson's work, with NP3 plating and Roguard, which is a beautiful combination! So I'm guessing this Marlin is chambered for a modified 50-110 with a slight taper to the case and probably slightly shortened, which Mic calls the 510 KE (Kodiak Express).

Beautiful rifle and I anxiously await my 510 KE as well!

 

[Tam Dl]

By the way. I made an error in a post on page 9. I said you could toss rounds in from the top on the 1886. It is controlled rounds feed, and I do not think that is an option. I have two of them, so I should know, I just did not want to force anything.

 

[Tam Dl]

I have been reading some news on the new Ruger 45-70 treatment for the Marlin. Sounds like they are taking it seriously. Going piece by piece through the guns and making Improvements. I don't know many details, but there were always a range of custom options for the Marlin, where options already were available, in recent years, mostly from Wild West. Ruger, will presumably add their specialties, the hammer forged barrel will be one. Presumably a lot of lost wax casting. Unfortunately, a few of the Wild West ideas, mainly the levers, were probably not good ideas.

 

[geoff rath]

@crs my original post did suggest that perhaps there is no viability in offering a commercially made Lever in Elephant gun chamberings.
I’m sure it could be done but with the coloured sold what’s would be the retail price.
I’m talking about say. 458wm and above or some of the Nitro Express cartridges that I know little about. Even a .375H&H probably won’t fit in a lever gun so it’s start from scratch and built a bigger action to handle the cartridge and the load.
I read they say a .458wm needs to propel a 500gn projectile at 2150fps to be a good elephant round. So that is probably running at higher pressure than the .45/90 with that slightly shorter case. If you want a Lott you probably need. Bigger stronger action.
I have nothing against lever guns but unless they offer one designed to handle these rounds I wouldn’t try have one rebarreled to suit.
A lever action built as a special run to handle such cartridges may well cost what a double does.
I’m sure there are 2 things, don’t reinvent the wheel when traditionally these big bore offerings are available in Doubles and CRF ,
Secondly the cost of producing a limited run. If they done them at 2k each we may buy them just because they made them but with research and development I’m sure the initial roll out would be expensive! Very expensive

 

[geoff rath]

I think one could easily make a stock lever action that was good enough for the task of taking large dangerous game. The reasons it has not been done have been largely identified. Back in the early days of smokeless powder and bolt actions, they so distinguished themselves in Africa, from the Boer War, to the game fields that there would be little reason to look for anything else other than the double rifle, which was obviously very much in use. The US did not adopt bolt actions as quickly, and after their brief appearance at the front in WWI, they had by WWII sensibly moved strongly in the direction of other action types. Of course bolt actions are very popular in the US, but they didn't blanket the game fields in the same way. Even mid way through the last century a hunter in the US might well still be shooting a lever. So you have the lever being important outside the dangerous game fields.

The Winchester was used by the Russians in WWI and worked very well by some reports, being preferred to bolts when the individual soldiers could get them. So chambering them in a 9.3x62 would have been easy enough and they could have been side by side with developments. A local store has barrels for the Garrand in 9.3x62. That could be another thread, why not semis.

I shouldn't draw this cultural distinction too strongly. There are pictures of Settlers in Africa with lever action rifles...

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I think that one of the reasons that big bore levers have not become more available is because of the 45/70 myth. There are many big bore levers being made today, maybe more than at any time. And a lot of this appeal has to do with the universal acceptance that levers are a great platform for 45/70s, and that the 45/70 is magic. This mythical performance of the 45/70 is basically true if you live outside of Big Five country. So you can't blame folks for not wanting more. But for those of us who want more it is very hard to get, particularly outside of the US. The 50 Alaskan has also flagged as far as I can tell without access to actual sales statistics. It has never been offered in a stock 1886 that I have seen, and many of the people who were offering it a few years back, have stopped, offering it in the Mossberg customs. A better choice for the US based shooter is probably the 470 and 475 Turnbulls, because they absolutely stroke the ballistic minimums. These are readily available from Turnbull but so far I have not seen them from others. The Turnbull rifles are excellent, but they lean towards nostalgia over practicality, that is just his niche.

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I don't think that the lever offers anything that the Blaser or doubles, and maybe even the best bolts can't do better. Basically it comes down to fire power. The Blaser is a stock item in the 500 Jeffery, and second shots are probably fast enough for clients, or the best professionals who might be better off with a double. When they wade in, it can be so tight on time, you really need a double, 3, 4, and 5, are probably not going to get used in every case, and if you have that much time, you can probably get by with a bolt. Most of the levers can be locked up and clearing can be a problem. Again, that is probably something that could be changed in the design, but until Blaser decides to make it happen, we are probably out of luck. Currently my local shop has several Blasers in 500 Jeffery, new and second hand, and not a single super sized lever. Getting one would cost more than the Blaser, or even a custom bolt gun.

I don't think the R8 has suitable calibres for D/G listed as available, judged by current practice. That means 416Ruger upwards. Now to the subject in hand: lever actions. Current rifles MIGHT meet requirements, but I've long suspected they would need to be re-engineered to the tolerances of Ruger's alleged work on the '95 ex-Marlin, or the Model 89 Big Horn; with suitable metallurgy applied. That would suggest a revisioned, rebuilt '86, in a suitable calibre(s); take your pick there.

Now for the bears/elephants in the room; suitable projectiles (present goods will suffice), than all the set-up production costs. Finally, who would buy one? Some of us on here, I suspect.

As always, I'll stand corrected, educated on this; after all I'm still learning.

 

[Scrumbag]

I think teddy used a 1895 Winchester in .405 win to shoot elephants,lions and rhino,s and maybe cape buffalo too.

Apparently most of the larger animals were taken by his pHs

 

[Scrumbag]

So when it comes to elephant hunting, the big debate seems to be a bolt or double. However, I think there are benefits that the lever-action style rifle has over the other 2.

Not only would a lever-action rifle beat a double in ammo capacity, but it would also beat a bolt rifle in speed as you would only need to do 2 movements of the hand to reload instead of 4, making it better for tight situations. And while a double rifle can shoot 2 rounds as fast as the hunter needs them, it's still only w and a 4 barrel rifle would be grossly cumbersome.

So my question is this. Why has no-one made a lever-action rifle based specifically made for thick-skinned, big-boned dangerous game rounds? I know the 45-70 can be used for that sometimes, but from what I've read, it's more adept at NA dangerous game and not as recommended as something like a .458 or 500 NE.

Does make you wonder that as you can get BLRs in .30-06 and 300WM whether they could be rebarreled to 9.3x62 and 458WM

Scrummy

 

[BeeMaa]

I don't think the R8 has suitable calibres for D/G listed as available, judged by current practice. That means 416Ruger upwards. Now to the subject in hand: lever actions. Current rifles MIGHT meet requirements, but I've long suspected they would need to be re-engineered to the tolerances of Ruger's alleged work on the '95 ex-Marlin, or the Model 89 Big Horn; with suitable metallurgy applied. That would suggest a revisioned, rebuilt '86, in a suitable calibre(s); take your pick there.

Now for the bears/elephants in the room; suitable projectiles (present goods will suffice), than all the set-up production costs. Finally, who would buy one? Some of us on here, I suspect.

As always, I'll stand corrected, educated on this; after all I'm still learning.

The Blaser R8 is available in 375H&H, 416RM, 458LOTT and 500J...all suitable for DG.