At this point, the "past" has rolled up to ideas from about 12 months ago.Exactly . Well said. Too many people use today’s standard to judge people’s actions in the past .
At this point, the "past" has rolled up to ideas from about 12 months ago.Exactly . Well said. Too many people use today’s standard to judge people’s actions in the past .
I don't know how often it happens on caned hunts, but the idea in a DG hunt is you can handle the situation from soup to nuts. Pistols are really woeful in that regard. Unless we are talking short rifles. The lever can come close to being up there with the bolt.Yes but it has been done. one of the members on this forum killed an elephant with a 454 cassul, and if I'm not mistaken the ph didn't fire a shot
Just one small addition to an excellent post. Back in the day, say 1895, there were a lot of guys using light solids to shoot the biggest game. The names and calibers are well known, sometimes as small as the 6.5x55. Therefore, the Winchester 1895 in the Krag getitng 2300 fps at 180 grain, and 2600 at 150 grain. The Russian contract 1895 were in the 7.62×54mmR, about equivalent to the 7.62 NATO and a few hundred FPS higher in velocity, could have all served in the hands of Bell, or others.back in the day, the answer was, they didn't exist in a proper format,
And have it barreled in 416 chatfield Taylor (2450 feet per second/400 grains-just like every other 416!) I believe one of the issues with lever guns very similar to pump actions is that the extraction system may not be as strong and reliable as the bolt when using more modern high pressure cartridges. Have seen a pile of DG shot with old big bore straight wall cartridges but typically in a single (or double) shot sharps type rifle. You have to get close if you plan on doing that!The BLR has been made into a 458 Win Mag. Find an old steel receiver model and a gunsmith known for it and maybe $3k-$5k and it can be done.
Last I checked, they were taking the 450 Marlin barrel assume from a takedown BLR and mating it to a 300 win receiver and rechambering. That made the east amount of work, but needed two guns. I suppose you may have a 300 and 458 takedown system and could have ordered a new 450 Marlin barrel assembly from Browning and sold that rifle back off. Now that the 450 Marlin takedown are discontinued, it may not be as easy to find everythingAnd have it barreled in 416 chatfield Taylor (2450 feet per second/400 grains-just like every other 416!) I believe one of the issues with lever guns very similar to pump actions is that the extraction system may not be as strong and reliable as the bolt when using more modern high pressure cartridges. Have seen a pile of DG shot with old big bore straight wall cartridges but typically in a single (or double) shot sharps type rifle. You have to get close if you plan on doing that!
I have waded through all ten pages of commentary and have a few thoughts which I don't believe have been expressed.So when it comes to elephant hunting, the big debate seems to be a bolt or double. However, I think there are benefits that the lever-action style rifle has over the other 2.
Not only would a lever-action rifle beat a double in ammo capacity, but it would also beat a bolt rifle in speed as you would only need to do 2 movements of the hand to reload instead of 4, making it better for tight situations. And while a double rifle can shoot 2 rounds as fast as the hunter needs them, it's still only w and a 4 barrel rifle would be grossly cumbersome.
So my question is this. Why has no-one made a lever-action rifle based specifically made for thick-skinned, big-boned dangerous game rounds? I know the 45-70 can be used for that sometimes, but from what I've read, it's more adept at NA dangerous game and not as recommended as something like a .458 or 500 NE.
Well darn. Snowing at the farm today (26 Jan 2021) and I am sitting by the wood stove, scrolling through AH and ran across his thread. 18 inches of new snow today and my 74 year old joints needed something to do inside.
First, I will not argue pros/cons of a lever gun. But the following is a short description of a 50 Caliber I worked with some 25 or so years ago. 9-1/2 pounds. Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock along with a thick Sorbothane pad. Stock is extensively reinforced with a through bolt. Tangs are reinforced with a "bedding pillar" and have a larger screw than original.
View attachment 443696
The one on top. Note the barrel contour.
View attachment 443684
In the beginning:
View attachment 443693
Smoking!
View attachment 443695
The little 9 inch South Bend got some action:
View attachment 443692
View attachment 443689
And some vertical milling:
View attachment 443694
On left, the 50 case with a 458 Win Mag case up ended
View attachment 443686
Center, 458 Win with a hard cast
View attachment 443687
Right, the 50 with a 450 Barnes.
The fatter 50 case has more case capacity than the 458 win or the 50 Alaskan.
45/70 left, the big 50 right.
View attachment 443688
M98 test gun with a strain gauge over the chamber, using the Oehler system. Chamber pressure and velocity at the pull of the trigger!
View attachment 443690
Oh Yea!
View attachment 443691
Setting up in the vertical mill to mill a groove in the barrel for the magazine tube.
View attachment 443697
The Bronze custom on the right is 470 grains, not 375 as written on the card.
View attachment 443685
This thing was way too expensive in man hours for me to attempt another on the Marlin receiver. Feeding was a nightmare. A lot of internal work required. But the rifle is reliable, will feed in any position including upside down. If one studies the internals of the receiver when cycling cartridges, yes Virginia, it is CRF.
I am not a elephant hunter and never have been to Africa. Would I go after a bull with the rifle? Yes, with an experienced Elephant Hunter backing me up with a .500 double.
Oh, the Oehler stuff: 5500 ft/lbs at 41,000 psi.
Would I build another? Yes, but on a Win 71. It will handle the 500 Nitro case with a bit of shortening.
Did you do the work on the Marlin yourself? It reminds me of Mic McPherson's work, with NP3 plating and Roguard, which is a beautiful combination! So I'm guessing this Marlin is chambered for a modified 50-110 with a slight taper to the case and probably slightly shortened, which Mic calls the 510 KE (Kodiak Express).Well darn. Snowing at the farm today (26 Jan 2021) and I am sitting by the wood stove, scrolling through AH and ran across his thread. 18 inches of new snow today and my 74 year old joints needed something to do inside.
First, I will not argue pros/cons of a lever gun. But the following is a short description of a 50 Caliber I worked with some 25 or so years ago. 9-1/2 pounds. Two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock along with a thick Sorbothane pad. Stock is extensively reinforced with a through bolt. Tangs are reinforced with a "bedding pillar" and have a larger screw than original.
View attachment 443696
The one on top. Note the barrel contour.
View attachment 443684
In the beginning:
View attachment 443693
Smoking!
View attachment 443695
The little 9 inch South Bend got some action:
View attachment 443692
View attachment 443689
And some vertical milling:
View attachment 443694
On left, the 50 case with a 458 Win Mag case up ended
View attachment 443686
Center, 458 Win with a hard cast
View attachment 443687
Right, the 50 with a 450 Barnes.
The fatter 50 case has more case capacity than the 458 win or the 50 Alaskan.
45/70 left, the big 50 right.
View attachment 443688
M98 test gun with a strain gauge over the chamber, using the Oehler system. Chamber pressure and velocity at the pull of the trigger!
View attachment 443690
Oh Yea!
View attachment 443691
Setting up in the vertical mill to mill a groove in the barrel for the magazine tube.
View attachment 443697
The Bronze custom on the right is 470 grains, not 375 as written on the card.
View attachment 443685
This thing was way too expensive in man hours for me to attempt another on the Marlin receiver. Feeding was a nightmare. A lot of internal work required. But the rifle is reliable, will feed in any position including upside down. If one studies the internals of the receiver when cycling cartridges, yes Virginia, it is CRF.
I am not a elephant hunter and never have been to Africa. Would I go after a bull with the rifle? Yes, with an experienced Elephant Hunter backing me up with a .500 double.
Oh, the Oehler stuff: 5500 ft/lbs at 41,000 psi.
Would I build another? Yes, but on a Win 71. It will handle the 500 Nitro case with a bit of shortening.
@crs my original post did suggest that perhaps there is no viability in offering a commercially made Lever in Elephant gun chamberings.
I’m sure it could be done but with the coloured sold what’s would be the retail price.
I’m talking about say. 458wm and above or some of the Nitro Express cartridges that I know little about. Even a .375H&H probably won’t fit in a lever gun so it’s start from scratch and built a bigger action to handle the cartridge and the load.
I read they say a .458wm needs to propel a 500gn projectile at 2150fps to be a good elephant round. So that is probably running at higher pressure than the .45/90 with that slightly shorter case. If you want a Lott you probably need. Bigger stronger action.
I have nothing against lever guns but unless they offer one designed to handle these rounds I wouldn’t try have one rebarreled to suit.
A lever action built as a special run to handle such cartridges may well cost what a double does.
I’m sure there are 2 things, don’t reinvent the wheel when traditionally these big bore offerings are available in Doubles and CRF ,
Secondly the cost of producing a limited run. If they done them at 2k each we may buy them just because they made them but with research and development I’m sure the initial roll out would be expensive! Very expensive
I don't think the R8 has suitable calibres for D/G listed as available, judged by current practice. That means 416Ruger upwards. Now to the subject in hand: lever actions. Current rifles MIGHT meet requirements, but I've long suspected they would need to be re-engineered to the tolerances of Ruger's alleged work on the '95 ex-Marlin, or the Model 89 Big Horn; with suitable metallurgy applied. That would suggest a revisioned, rebuilt '86, in a suitable calibre(s); take your pick there.I think one could easily make a stock lever action that was good enough for the task of taking large dangerous game. The reasons it has not been done have been largely identified. Back in the early days of smokeless powder and bolt actions, they so distinguished themselves in Africa, from the Boer War, to the game fields that there would be little reason to look for anything else other than the double rifle, which was obviously very much in use. The US did not adopt bolt actions as quickly, and after their brief appearance at the front in WWI, they had by WWII sensibly moved strongly in the direction of other action types. Of course bolt actions are very popular in the US, but they didn't blanket the game fields in the same way. Even mid way through the last century a hunter in the US might well still be shooting a lever. So you have the lever being important outside the dangerous game fields.
The Winchester was used by the Russians in WWI and worked very well by some reports, being preferred to bolts when the individual soldiers could get them. So chambering them in a 9.3x62 would have been easy enough and they could have been side by side with developments. A local store has barrels for the Garrand in 9.3x62. That could be another thread, why not semis.
I shouldn't draw this cultural distinction too strongly. There are pictures of Settlers in Africa with lever action rifles...
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I think that one of the reasons that big bore levers have not become more available is because of the 45/70 myth. There are many big bore levers being made today, maybe more than at any time. And a lot of this appeal has to do with the universal acceptance that levers are a great platform for 45/70s, and that the 45/70 is magic. This mythical performance of the 45/70 is basically true if you live outside of Big Five country. So you can't blame folks for not wanting more. But for those of us who want more it is very hard to get, particularly outside of the US. The 50 Alaskan has also flagged as far as I can tell without access to actual sales statistics. It has never been offered in a stock 1886 that I have seen, and many of the people who were offering it a few years back, have stopped, offering it in the Mossberg customs. A better choice for the US based shooter is probably the 470 and 475 Turnbulls, because they absolutely stroke the ballistic minimums. These are readily available from Turnbull but so far I have not seen them from others. The Turnbull rifles are excellent, but they lean towards nostalgia over practicality, that is just his niche.
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I don't think that the lever offers anything that the Blaser or doubles, and maybe even the best bolts can't do better. Basically it comes down to fire power. The Blaser is a stock item in the 500 Jeffery, and second shots are probably fast enough for clients, or the best professionals who might be better off with a double. When they wade in, it can be so tight on time, you really need a double, 3, 4, and 5, are probably not going to get used in every case, and if you have that much time, you can probably get by with a bolt. Most of the levers can be locked up and clearing can be a problem. Again, that is probably something that could be changed in the design, but until Blaser decides to make it happen, we are probably out of luck. Currently my local shop has several Blasers in 500 Jeffery, new and second hand, and not a single super sized lever. Getting one would cost more than the Blaser, or even a custom bolt gun.
Apparently most of the larger animals were taken by his pHsI think teddy used a 1895 Winchester in .405 win to shoot elephants,lions and rhino,s and maybe cape buffalo too.
Does make you wonder that as you can get BLRs in .30-06 and 300WM whether they could be rebarreled to 9.3x62 and 458WMSo when it comes to elephant hunting, the big debate seems to be a bolt or double. However, I think there are benefits that the lever-action style rifle has over the other 2.
Not only would a lever-action rifle beat a double in ammo capacity, but it would also beat a bolt rifle in speed as you would only need to do 2 movements of the hand to reload instead of 4, making it better for tight situations. And while a double rifle can shoot 2 rounds as fast as the hunter needs them, it's still only w and a 4 barrel rifle would be grossly cumbersome.
So my question is this. Why has no-one made a lever-action rifle based specifically made for thick-skinned, big-boned dangerous game rounds? I know the 45-70 can be used for that sometimes, but from what I've read, it's more adept at NA dangerous game and not as recommended as something like a .458 or 500 NE.
The Blaser R8 is available in 375H&H, 416RM, 458LOTT and 500J...all suitable for DG.I don't think the R8 has suitable calibres for D/G listed as available, judged by current practice. That means 416Ruger upwards. Now to the subject in hand: lever actions. Current rifles MIGHT meet requirements, but I've long suspected they would need to be re-engineered to the tolerances of Ruger's alleged work on the '95 ex-Marlin, or the Model 89 Big Horn; with suitable metallurgy applied. That would suggest a revisioned, rebuilt '86, in a suitable calibre(s); take your pick there.
Now for the bears/elephants in the room; suitable projectiles (present goods will suffice), than all the set-up production costs. Finally, who would buy one? Some of us on here, I suspect.
As always, I'll stand corrected, educated on this; after all I'm still learning.