Why no lever-action rifle for Elephants?

I have just had a quick read through my copy of " African Game Trails ".
President Theodore Roosevelt appears to have only shot 1 elephant with the .405 Winchester Model 1895 lever rifle. His son , Kermit and he shot it repeatedly I the head. For all of the other elephants , buffaloes and rhinoceroses , he preferred a .500/450 Nitro Express double barreled side by side rifle , built by the company , Holland and Holland .
Infact , he is vocally saying that he does NOT think that the .405 Winchester is adequate for elephants at all .
 
crs,
in the old days some people made claims, and the general populous just unthinkingly believed them.
nowadays people tend to look at evidence on such issues.
while I cannot comment on the quality of the man's presidency, in other areas evidence would suggest that the image presented had a gap from reality.
while being connected to national parks, in the real world he believed them to be hunting reserves for himself, as president.
while presenting as the great hunter, he used people to chase game to him, and was indiscriminant in what he shot.
he used according to legend, a 405 win on elephant, and thought it adequate.
these things alone, when given any consideration, mark the man.
sometimes delving below the surface just a little shows that "legends" while convenient, can be disappointing.
bruce.
You really need to do some research. That is one of the more uninformed assessments of Roosevelt and his legacy I have ever seen. There is revisionist history and then there is hostile revisionism designed to reinforce a specific conclusion or impression. This is as bad a synopsis of one of the latter that I have read in years.
 
I was typing a response and several others beat me to it. Just read the above and +1
 
@crs my original post did suggest that perhaps there is no viability in offering a commercially made Lever in Elephant gun chamberings.
I’m sure it could be done but with the coloured sold what’s would be the retail price.
I’m talking about say. 458wm and above or some of the Nitro Express cartridges that I know little about. Even a .375H&H probably won’t fit in a lever gun so it’s start from scratch and built a bigger action to handle the cartridge and the load.
I read they say a .458wm needs to propel a 500gn projectile at 2150fps to be a good elephant round. So that is probably running at higher pressure than the .45/90 with that slightly shorter case. If you want a Lott you probably need. Bigger stronger action.
I have nothing against lever guns but unless they offer one designed to handle these rounds I wouldn’t try have one rebarreled to suit.
A lever action built as a special run to handle such cartridges may well cost what a double does.
I’m sure there are 2 things, don’t reinvent the wheel when traditionally these big bore offerings are available in Doubles and CRF ,
Secondly the cost of producing a limited run. If they done them at 2k each we may buy them just because they made them but with research and development I’m sure the initial roll out would be expensive! Very expensive
 
CBH in New South Wales.
Either I have failed completely to convey the fact that the current Winchester 1886 in .45-90/.458 2.4 ALREADY kills ele with 450 grain bullets at 2150 fps and that so does the .45-70 with slightly SLOWER bullets, or you just skimmed over my reply. Nothing requires a 500 grain bullet to kill an ele.
And there are the 45-110 cartridges. IMHO, the .45-90 performance is enough for the hunter, but each hunter can and must make up his own mind. I read one report where a hunter used his .460 Weatherby to stop an escaping ele at 200 yards. OK by me if it is legal.
The professional hunter that may be expected to stop a charge has reason to use any rifle of his choice that will do that job. Why not a .600 NE if he can handle it and it is legal?

In addition to the standard 1886 .458 rifles, several variants have been made in 50 caliber for Alaskan brown bear. They too should kill an ele.
Modern bullets are a far cry from the old cast 500 grain lead bullets first used to kill bison.

Please consider doing a bit of research on this matter as I can think of nothing else to say.
 
HWL said earlier in this thread (Donald Trump, now it is time to follow the foodprints of Theodor Roosevelt and kill an Elephant with a lever gun.
A 30-30 is appropriate, I think….)
President Trump has plenty of rifles in his family and one of his sons has plenty of African hunting experience.
But if he wants to borrow my 1886 .45-90, we can arrange that too.
MAGA
 
HWL said earlier in this thread (Donald Trump, now it is time to follow the foodprints of Theodor Roosevelt and kill an Elephant with a lever gun.
A 30-30 is appropriate, I think….)
President Trump has plenty of rifles in his family and one of his sons has plenty of African hunting experience.
But if he wants to borrow my 1886 .45-90, we can arrange that too.
MAGA
Why yes , that is correct. I have seen a photograph of Donald Trump Junior , with a double barreled side by side rifle made by the British company , John Rigby and Co . I have read an internet article which claims that it is a .470 Nitro Express , Crs . It was a beautiful looking rifle .
 
As for a lever gun and shooting a elephant dont you you think that with modern bullets you would be a lot more successful than good old TR was back in the day when he tried it.

Most 45-70 and even the 50-110 were shooting lead bullets and even if they were a hard cast I think that even hard cast are better today than they were back in the days of TR
 
You really need to do some research. That is one of the more uninformed assessments of Roosevelt and his legacy I have ever seen. There is revisionist history and then there is hostile revisionism designed to reinforce a specific conclusion or impression. This is as bad a synopsis of one of the latter that I have read in years.

Well said!!
 
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@crs I’m not debating if the older rifle will kill Ele but I took it more that the OP @tigris 115 was asking why they are not common, perhaps I misquoted you but I don’t think there are any current offerings as they probably never reached the popularity of the CRF and Doubles therefore there hasn’t been a surge in popularity in big bore Levers and there is probably not any offerings in current production in .458wm larger or the like, the Nitro cartridges or modern big bore rounds.
For all the reading I have done they don’t seem to have the popularity. My only lever action is a .357magnum, and I fired a .44-40 and .32-20 in some old Winchester’s but I don’t recall the model as I was young.
Running .38special in my .375 has dropped cattle in yards instantly although Ele head is different.
I am not in a position to hunt DG but like most I would probably go with the commonly used CRF in my budget (CZ550’s $1500) but i wish any one all the best whatever they hunt with , no issues with levers It’s seems the OP Like Me, doesn’t see them getting publicity as DG rifles and my conclusion was availability due to demand driven by popularity. Hell invite me over to hunt Bison , if you are happy to loan me the lever you can back me up with my .375 Cz550, I will trust you your load and your experience and when they make a new and affordable Lever in a True DG chambering for 2k I’m in. (Ok so by TRUE, I mean traditional or common)
I won’t start on Teddy as I don’t know much about him. Calling a son Kermit would make me wonder.
When Blaser R8 become more affordable their will be no debate just the R8.
 
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Browning BLR can be done in .458 win mag, .416 Ruger and .375 Ruger.
If you start with a WSM platform you have many wildcats to play with also, up to, if it fits, the .470 Rhino. This round was designed for AR-10’s and gets bloody close, if not the same, as a .470 nitro.


I think someone mentioned be savage 99 earlier. These can be done in .375/284 and .416/284.
 
"I cannot comment on the quality of the man's presidency, in other areas evidence would suggest that the image presented had a gap from reality.
while being connected to national parks, in the real world he believed them to be hunting reserves for himself, as president."

Even if this were true, it would show an element of entitlement, but not really rule out a conservation approach.

"while presenting as the great hunter, he used people to chase game to him, and was indiscriminant in what he shot."

100 years ago, if true, this was fairly typical. Of course, it does beg the question of what one means by "indiscriminate". Beating, or drives was and is a common tactic. Indiscriminate is the sort of word people use when laying a guilt trip on others. It would be very rare for anything most people did to be indiscriminate. Just in terms of cost, effort, etc... But large mixed bags of animals were common when animals abounded. And something like shooting every varmint one sees, which is common enough today will not likely pass tests in the future.

"he used according to legend, a 405 win on elephant, and thought it adequate.
these things alone, when given any consideration, mark the man."

This may not be accurate, but even if he did say that, there are many elephant hunters in history who used choices available in their day, from 4 bores, to 7x57s, even 9.3x62, which today are either tossed aside, or even banned.

Roosevelt is idolized by many gunnies, but not particularly by me. But I prefer not to bear false witness.
 
call me an agnostic.
I would like to believe, but I can't.
modern marketing has made me cynical, as have modern politicians, and here I see both ahead of their time.
I cannot feel cosiness in the comfort of legend.
bruce.
 
I think one could easily make a stock lever action that was good enough for the task of taking large dangerous game. The reasons it has not been done have been largely identified. Back in the early days of smokeless powder and bolt actions, they so distinguished themselves in Africa, from the Boer War, to the game fields that there would be little reason to look for anything else other than the double rifle, which was obviously very much in use. The US did not adopt bolt actions as quickly, and after their brief appearance at the front in WWI, they had by WWII sensibly moved strongly in the direction of other action types. Of course bolt actions are very popular in the US, but they didn't blanket the game fields in the same way. Even mid way through the last century a hunter in the US might well still be shooting a lever. So you have the lever being important outside the dangerous game fields.

The Winchester was used by the Russians in WWI and worked very well by some reports, being preferred to bolts when the individual soldiers could get them. So chambering them in a 9.3x62 would have been easy enough and they could have been side by side with developments. A local store has barrels for the Garrand in 9.3x62. That could be another thread, why not semis.

I shouldn't draw this cultural distinction too strongly. There are pictures of Settlers in Africa with lever action rifles...

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I think that one of the reasons that big bore levers have not become more available is because of the 45/70 myth. There are many big bore levers being made today, maybe more than at any time. And a lot of this appeal has to do with the universal acceptance that levers are a great platform for 45/70s, and that the 45/70 is magic. This mythical performance of the 45/70 is basically true if you live outside of Big Five country. So you can't blame folks for not wanting more. But for those of us who want more it is very hard to get, particularly outside of the US. The 50 Alaskan has also flagged as far as I can tell without access to actual sales statistics. It has never been offered in a stock 1886 that I have seen, and many of the people who were offering it a few years back, have stopped, offering it in the Mossberg customs. A better choice for the US based shooter is probably the 470 and 475 Turnbulls, because they absolutely stroke the ballistic minimums. These are readily available from Turnbull but so far I have not seen them from others. The Turnbull rifles are excellent, but they lean towards nostalgia over practicality, that is just his niche.

----------------------------------------

I don't think that the lever offers anything that the Blaser or doubles, and maybe even the best bolts can't do better. Basically it comes down to fire power. The Blaser is a stock item in the 500 Jeffery, and second shots are probably fast enough for clients, or the best professionals who might be better off with a double. When they wade in, it can be so tight on time, you really need a double, 3, 4, and 5, are probably not going to get used in every case, and if you have that much time, you can probably get by with a bolt. Most of the levers can be locked up and clearing can be a problem. Again, that is probably something that could be changed in the design, but until Blaser decides to make it happen, we are probably out of luck. Currently my local shop has several Blasers in 500 Jeffery, new and second hand, and not a single super sized lever. Getting one would cost more than the Blaser, or even a custom bolt gun.
 
call me an agnostic.
I would like to believe, but I can't.
modern marketing has made me cynical, as have modern politicians, and here I see both ahead of their time.
I cannot feel cosiness in the comfort of legend.
bruce.

I certainly wouldn't press you to change your approach. We all have a way of judging the world that makes the most sense. I just think that in the past, personal standards really were different. When Churchill really screwed up over the Dardanelles, he not only resigned (something ministers did until quite recently), but he enlisted for the front in Western Europe, and served there. And as far as the rest of it goes, I covered some of it above. But just for instance, there is a distinction between shooting and hunting. In shooting the bags can be enormous and drives are common. It was just how it was.
 
I wonder what could be accomplished when hand loading for the .375 Winchester? It was available in the 1894 model for a few years. One could conceivably use punch style bullets safely in a tubular magazine. Perhaps someone could shed some light as we have a wonderful resource in the collective knowledge our handloading community holds.

I personally don't hold it fair to judge a man from a different time period by our standards. If one starts down that rabbit hole where does he then stop? Wyatt Eurp the Mastersons and bill Cody all contributed too the almost extinction of the amirican bison. Yet none would question their contributions to history. Let us not forget teddy resigned a government job which would of kept him warm and safely at home in order to lead men into battle. Any man what ever his flaws who would willing volunteer to defend his nations way of life I believe has earned our respect.
 
don't start me on the earps, bat masterson, bill cody, or hickock, let alone custer , as human beings.
more legends that veer far from the truth.
bruce.
 
Tigris115
The reason why ( l personally believe that ) the under lever rifle never caught on , as a rifle for dangerous animals is because of a combination of a few reasons .
Firstly , the typical under lever rifle uses a tube type magazine under the rifle , which makes it imperative that the cartridges used , must have flat noses ( like Winchester's .30-30 cartridge ). . Otherwise , if one was using a conventional round nose or pointed nose nose munition , there would always be a chance that a sudden jolt could cause the point of one bullet striking the primer of the bullet before it ( as they are horizontally placed inside the tube type magazine ) . This essentially means that the bullets which can be used in such rifles ( with tube type magazines ) will ( on account of the shape of the bullet's nose ) lack penetration compared to conventional round nosed cartridges .
This is certainly problematic when the Shikari's intended quarry is a large , physically imposing , thick skinned and thick bones elephant .

Secondly , there are under lever rifles , with conventional box type magazines , which are capable of safely using pointed nose or round nose munitions .
This was my Nepalese gun bearer , Rishi holding such an under lever rifle , which belonged to my respected client.
Screenshot_20191002-203359_01_01_01.png

The rifle was a model 99 made by the firm , Savage and it was calibrated for the .243 Winchester cartridge. The model 99 did not utilizing a tube type magazine , but rather a rotary type magazine or a box type magazine . Therefore , in such a design of rifle , pointed nose and round nosed bullets could be used safely .
The firm , Winchester did infact design the model 1895 under lever rifle calibrated for the .405 Winchester cartridge ( using a 300 grain bullet ) . At the time , l do believe ( unless l am very mistaken ) that the .405 Winchester cartridge was the largest calibre cartridge commercially available in a repeating rifle .
The grandfather of my learned colleague and fellow forum member , Major Poton Khan , infact did manage to kill a rogue Indian elephant with three solid metal envelope cartridges from his .405 Winchester model 1895 under lever rifle . Our late friend , Mohiyuddin ( who was a forest department officer , particularly assigned to shoot rogue elephants ) had to have a great deal of knowledge about the calibres ideal for killing elephants , on account of his profession. In a manual which he wrote ( to teach novice forest department officers how to shoot rogue elephants ) , Mohiyuddin states that the .405 Winchester and the 300 grain metal envelope bullets can kill an Indian bull elephant with a side brain shot , but that the penetration was too unreliable for a brain shot taken from the frontal position ( as the front part of an elephant's skull is the thickest compared to the side parts ) . Considering how many rogue Indian elephants l have seen him dispatch , l am inclined to believe him .
This would make the .405 Winchester a very poor calibre for facing a charging elephant ( which only affords the Shikari a frontal shot to the brain )
I do wonder if a a modern brass homogeneous bullet would ensure adequate penetration for the frontal brain shot on elephants .
Another reason why the under lever rifle is shunned for dangerous animals , is because some people have a view that under lever rifles are inherently less accurate than bolt operation rifles . Exactly how true this statement is , I reality ... I cannot say.

The final reason ( according to my observations ) is that under lever rifles are typically viewed as less reliable than a conventional bolt operation rifle. There may be some grain of truth in this , because l vaguely remember Poton's grandfather experiencing a jam or two , in his Winchester model 1895 under lever rifle on some of the occasions when we used to go hunting together . That traitor to the hunting community , Kenneth Anderson also documented some instances in his book of his Winchester model 1895 under lever rifle jamming . However , this was over five decades ago , and l do believe that modern manufacturing techniques have largely eliminated any potential jamming issues in under lever rifles .
This is how l feel about under lever rifled anyway .
On a related subject , President Theodore " Teddy " Roosevelt is , was and always will be my favorite of all American Presidents. I have also read his excellent Safari book " African Game Trails " as a child and if my memory serves me correctly , he only killed a single elephant with his .405 Winchester calibre under lever rifle . I remember reading his own words in the book that he considered the .405 Winchester calibre as perfect for lions , but not thick skinned animals .
In my humble opinion , he was the perfect combination of Shikari and conservationist . He is perhaps the world's most renowned example that hunting and conservation can ( and should) go hand in hand . Unless one can read minds ( that too , of people deceased long before their birth ) it is not possible to determine what went in his mind when he established national parks . However , it is an inescapable fact that those national parks aided in conservation. I also believe in the concept " innocent until proven guilty ". Therefore , unless otherwise proven , l choose to believe that his intentions for establishing conservation were noble and not selfish . Also killing a single elephant with a .405 Winchester calibre rifle , in an era when people were saying hundreds with the service .303 bore Lee Enfield rifles , does not make someone a bad man ( l believe ) .

@Major Khan , could you share some of the details about Jalaluddin Nana's Winchester model 1895 under lever rifle jamming , with these gentlemen ?
 
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don't start me on the earps, bat masterson, bill cody, or hickock, let alone custer , as human beings.
more legends that veer far from the truth.
bruce.
Seriously? Do you actually read any legitimate history? Each of the individuals you have named is extremely well documented - to include the popular misconceptions created by an adoring (and sometimes extremely critical press). Custer, in particular, has been subject to reams of critical study; much of it in the seventies and eighties as flawed as the earlier conventions that led to idolatry like “Boots and Saddles.” However, I suspect more good, balanced research has been written about TR than any other twentieth century president - I wish more was was being written about FDR.

I would urge you to start by actually reading Roosevelt - and I don’t mean just Game Trails. He was one of the most prolific writers of his generation, and by far the most prolific of any president. His naval history of the War of 1812 is still considered one of the best written, and of course his history of the Spanish American War and the creation of the Rough Riders is splendid primary source material for historians to this day. Secondly, I would urge you to judge any historical figure by the standards and conditions of his time - not ours. It is the same error these ignorant snowflakes make in reviling founders like Washington and Jefferson because, for instance, they owned slaves. His hunting ethics were created by the conditions of his time - not ours. What is amazing to me is that at a time when market hunting was at its peak, he could see beyond it for a need for protected lands, limited take, and organizations like Boone and Crockett to provide public support to conservation efforts. I would assume you are aware that his six-month African odyssey was in part funded by the Smithsonian for which he was shooting specimens? Of course that would be considered horrific by the standards of most of the woke unwashed today - standards that were wholly irrelevant to any decision made by the directors of the museum at the start of the 20th century.

Historically, TR was one of the more politically polarizing figures of his day. What is interesting to me is that his political beliefs have gained greater traction and respect over time. Many on the extreme right oppose the legacy of his fiscal policies, but again, most recent, balanced research paints a very favorable picture of his legacy.

Yes, hunting ethics have changed greatly since TR’s day - most for the better. But we should remember that lions were considered dangerous vermin well into the twentieth century. Commercial ivory hunting was at its zenith after TR’s death. And I don’t know where you do your hunting, but I participate in driven hunts of one type or another every season. I grew up in an area where running deer with dogs was still an important custom. Today, I regularly shoot quail pointed by dogs and wild boar pushed by hounds. Just saying.

I keep L. P. Hartley’s quote “The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there” at my signature below for a reason. It is worth a bit of reflection.
 
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