Which Calibre Should Be Consigned to the Grave

[RedTag]

I just did a quick search and you are indeed correct. At some point I read an article about why the 450 Marlin was invented and it had something to do with the availability of 45-70 or 45-70 lever guns. But it appears that wasn't true. Researching now, it appears the 450 Marlin was an attempt to make a higher performance 45-70 cartridge, that idiots couldn't accidently put in a 45-70.

The Winchester 1886 is an excellent and very strong design; there’s a good reason it’s been around for so long. The Marlin 1895 in its modern form has been around since the 1970s, based on the 336 action. Note the original 1895 looked more like the square bolt 1894 and stopped producing sometime around the Great Depression if I recall correctly. They released the .450 Marlin in the year 2000, based on the .458x2” (shortened .458 Winchester Magnum) but the belt made longer to prevent chambering in other rifles like .338 WM, and in doing so lost the opportunity for one way interchangeability like what we have in .458 WM and Lott. This is what never made sense to me. The .45-70 was already achieving high levels of performance and doing so quite safely in established lever action firearms. The .450 was basically duplicating that performance and offering no other advantages or flexibility. The .45-70 can still be loaded with low pressure black powder loads if one desires. I thought the .450 could be kind of a neat short action big bore bolt action cartridge, like it’s wildcat predecessor, but in the lever action 1895 platform it just never made sense to me.

 

[steve white]

main complaint is it did not “out perform” the 300 WM. Its close and very efficient achieving similar performance with less powder.

Other technical issues is the short neck and limited COAL for longer high BC bullets. Works better in a “middle sized” action like a Tikka set to the long bolt stop.

Also the fat case had feeding issues unless sorted, feeds much better from a center feed or a removable clip.

It outperformed the 300 Win mag in at least one measurement--it is short enough to allow longer bullets in the Tikka T3C without compressing the bullet into the powder as much. Tikkas have the same detachable mag which can be unforgiving in that regard.

 

[steve white]

Can you make 5-600+ yard shots with .35 Whelen? It is giving up about 400fps at the muzzle for 200 grain bullets.

When you get into true long range shooting, different rules apply--mid range calibers quickly become too rainbow arced. Nobody wants to aim with the angle of a howitzer, and ranging becomes too critical if crippling hits/misses are to be avoided.

 

[steve white]

I’m good with all of them existing, even the 6.5 cm.

I didn’t go out of my way to find one, but I was offered a deal so good I couldn’t logically pass it up at the time. Rifle, accessories, including case and scope, a pile of ammo, for $200. I bought it, killed a few deer and had some fun at the range, then sold it. It helped me see the effectiveness of a 6.5 platform and now I have a 6.5 Swede M96 to finish out. I don’t regret either purchase.

Now, I would like to see a re-prioritization of certain calibers of bullet and brass manufacturing, as most of us would, but I’ll let someone else start that thread after this one gets its juice squeezed.

Edit:

I’ll also say this. For all the hate, the 6.5 cm did a LOT to get people interested and through the door for shooting accurately, practicing, etc. Any caliber that gets people excited and buying more guns and ammo and reloading materials is a good thing. Anyone who makes the argument that the CM wounds deer, but the Swede slays them, may need to read a bit about logical fallacy, causation vs correlation, etc. The pills they shoot can be identical, and we need to not be grognards about what people choose to hunt with and instead encourage them to hunt, and hunt ethically, etc.

The whole Creedmore derangement syndrome is just a bunch of camp hazing teasing that got out of hand. Surely no one thinks that it is inferior to the Swede.
Anything 8mm has struggled to gain traction in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not a great caliber, well proven in Europe.

 

[Flbt]

The whole Creedmore derangement syndrome is just a bunch of camp hazing teasing that got out of hand. Surely no one thinks that it is inferior to the Swede.
Anything 8mm has struggled to gain traction in the US, but that doesn't mean it's not a great caliber, well proven in Europe.

I dont think the ceed is inferior to the sweed.
There just was no reason for the creed because we all ready had the sweed and 260

 

[Eric Zelanko]

Why all the hate?

I’ve picked up several of these “newer” calibers simply to play. Did the 300 PRC, or back further 300 WSM, do anything my 300 WM or 300 H&H wouldn’t? Nope. But it sure has been fun picking out a rifle, scope mount, and scope to play with. And then finding the right bullet, powder and combinations to make it shoot sub MOA if possible. The bonus is these components are usually readily available for these new calibers. Yea, they sometimes fade away but I tend to buy in quantity for that very reason.

My latest toy is a Tikka 6.5 CM set in an MDT chassis stock with a 6-28 Athlon scope. Not for hunting but to ring steel at long range if my eyes are up to it. Are there other cartridges that could do just as well? Yep, I probably already own them. Would it be as much fun refitting or developing loads for that purpose? Maybe but in this group, who doesn’t want another rifle?

I’ve plenty of calibers that no longer are popular but I hope remain available. For instance, my supply of swift A-frames for the 8mm Mag are dwindling. Swift hasn’t had a run for years. How about our 16 ga shotguns? Available but extremely pricey.

In my opinion, there is simply no best caliber for the masses. I’m glad as it would be boring.

 

[RedTag]

I think cartridges like .308 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor are at their best in autoloading rifles, as originally intended, where they really show their true strengths and advantages. I never understood the love or the hate for the Creedmoor. Sure it is duplicating the ballistics of the .260 Remington and 6.5 Swede, which may seem redundant, but it’s designed specifically for autoloading rifles like the AR-10 platform which makes it make perfect sense. The .30-06 and family seem to offer the balance of power and efficiency in bolt action rifles. When we need a power level that the .30-06 and family can’t deliver, the full length belted magnum cartridges come into their own. The ultra magnum and alphabet soup cartridges of more recent development don’t bring enough more to the table to make the juice worth the squeeze, at least for me.

 

[matt85]

It was probably because it may have had a brake on it, and the windshield reflected a lot of the sound back into his ears. Check out this video on how powerful muzzle blast from brakes really are!

Yet another reason to NEVER use muzzle brakes! I've never owned a hunting rifle with a muzzle brake and I never will.

 

[Safari Dave]

300 Weatherby Magnum based on the guy in my safari camp.

Any caliber is good, even if only supported by a dedicated fan, realistically caliber choice should come with testing.

6.5 Creedmoor is not a horrible choice but a beginner needs to realize that you are not going to shoot a moose at 1200 yards the second time you shoot that gun.

IMO, the .300 Weatherby is the best .30 caliber cartridge ever devised!

(When you collect a bunch of eccentrics, what should you expect?)



I just bought a .340 Weatherby. (I already had a .338 Winchester)

IMO, the .340 Weatherby is the best coastal brown bear and polar bear cartridge ever devised...

Maybe, I just like Weatherby's...

They sure are pretty, and IMO something about the stock tames the recoil.

I'm sure your mileage may vary.

I'm still looking for ugly, but I just haven't been able to find it.

 

[analog_peninsula]

Yet another reason to NEVER use muzzle brakes! I've never owned a hunting rifle with a muzzle brake and I never will.

Never say never. I’m certainly not a fan, but they have their place. I completely agree that noise mitigation is essential.