Trophy Debate

[SHOEDOG]

Great information Brickburn!
One of those things that when you see it once you wont forget it.

 

[SHOEDOG]

I wonder if the ridges are the result of slower growth later in the animals life cycle?

 

[UKHunter]

Not sure how or way peace was made after all it was never about anything but the trophy right. Though a few pms I saw tell me the real story.

My comments are about hunting because a trophy can be different for each hunter. If you cant read then dont feel the need to comment to me. When I say hunters or ph I mean ALL have no right to judge any other hunter period.

I dont believe in telling other hunters what should be a trophy to them.
I dont believe in taking female animals but dont bash guys who do.
I dont believe in taking any animal just beause but dont bash guys who do if they have the tag to take that animal.
I dont believe in trashing any ones hunt report because I can. I do look at those who do trash someones else report and remove that outfitter from my list of who I want to hunt with. I know they dont want me as a client anyway.

As for my foot in the smelly stuff .I can tell you I am only following your tracks through it.

Hi Billc,

Not really apart of this debate but i'm curious as to why you don't believe in taking female animals? Im quite interested by this and if you would prefer please shoot me a PM.

To me culling females is just as important as the males. After all they provide 50% of the genes that are passed on, something I feel is often over-looked or not understood by many hunters. They also cause the same amount of habitat destruction through browsing.

 

[dobber]

There is another great question, what is the % of genes passed on by a bull Kudu, i know that with deer the majority of genes or how the offspring will grow is a major part of the female
Kind of an offshoot of the original topic, but with the topic of genes and seed spreading, this might be a good question for those in the know

 

[BRICKBURN]

............ i know that with deer the majority of genes or how the offspring will grow is a major part of the female ................

Not in Biology class. Elaborate for me please.

 

[Wheels]

The lucky thing about living in Africa, you may change your mind, just like our politicians, and no one would even notice.. .

Even American's can change their mind!

Only difference, people notice.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I think this has been used before with good effect.

 

[dobber]

Guess the studies are still ongoing, found out i was wrong and not wrong, all depending on who you believe, the good news is i had to use google and learned a few things.
And thank you for getting us back on topic with that picture, them are some good genetics


Genetic Contribution of Does. Female ungulates contribute at least as much to the antler and horn quality of their male offspring as do the sires. Experiments have shown that whitetail fawns born from the same doe, but sired by very different bucks, often have antler conformations similar to each other and sharing characteristics with their mother’s father. A male-to-female ratio of 1:2 or 1:3 means that 66-75 percent of the total gene pool is made up of females that cannot be subjected to selective pressures related to horn or antler quality. It would be very difficult to manipulate the quality of horns or antlers by incomplete selection on only 25-34 percent of the gene pool.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Yeah, it's that who do you believe part.
Science is an interesting thing. Replicated controlled studies vs one off reports.
Friend calls lots of the conclusions drawn "Voodoo Genetics".

Manipulation vs Natural selection changes the game to.


It was a show stopper the first go round.

 

[WRudman]

May I pose a question? How do you judge a hornless female wild animal's age. On it's horn length? Ridges in its horns?

Forget the text books, graphs and charts, they give you an idea of averages, but not all the facts.

Next time you shoot a wild animal, open its mouth, look at its teeth,

look at veld conditions, then add it all together. You may get an answer.

Experience is hard to gather, supposition is easy.

Thank you for your time

 

[BRICKBURN]

May I pose a question? How do you judge a hornless female wild animal's age. On it's horn length? Ridges in its horns? ................

Any TROPHY COWS taken?
Just speculation on my part, but I would guess NO.

From all the experience placed out on the hillside photo I can see ZERO KUDU COWS.
(Perhaps there is a Peruke in the lot, but it is beyond me to see it.)


Since the question is nonsensical in relation to Kudu as the only females with horns would be Perukes, I would suggest for practical field guide purposes:

Body size, coloration, maturity.
Cows, calves and yearlings can all be determined by body size alone.

Reliably, tooth bisection is one method used by scientists. (wildlife biologists.)
Note the review of the methodology in the attached document.
Pretty well useless method for a PH and Hunter in the field, before the trigger is pulled.

 

[BRICKBURN]

By the way here is another thread along the same lines.


http://www.africahunting.com/threads/judging-kudu-conservation-not-inches.14005/#post-115643

Jaco Strauss disagreed with me on my call on which one was oldest.
Not that he has any experience or anything.

In fact, upon review I actually agree with him.

 

[vinnymbogo]

I think this has been used before with good effect.

View attachment 48759

Nice eyes!

 

[WRudman]

Point of interest, have harvested a kudu cow with horns and many duiker ewes with horns, all of which were breeding.
What I am trying to put across is there is no hard rule to set in stone, variance's are aplenty.
But we all agree to disagree!

 

[WRudman]

As for the PH, if he knows the ranch well, knows the landowners rules and knows his clients wishes, can't he use his discretion?

 

[brushmore]

As for the PH, if he knows the ranch well, knows the landowners rules and knows his clients wishes, can't he use his discretion?

That's the way I see. The client was happy, the land owner was OK with the hunt and by all accounts is doing very well with managing the kudu population. So what's the problem?

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I have been arguing with myself if I should post in this thread or not, but I have decided too.
After a long discussion with myself I have decided that taking the Kudu dobber shot is totally fine by me as he made the decision himself that he would be totally satisfied with that Kudu and shot it after getting the go ahead from his PH, even if it most likely was a immature Kudu bull.
dobber was and still is happy about it all and that is what really counts.
I hope he and others still will post their hunting reports here and be thick skinned enough to take the criticism of a few posters now and then with a smile

To me it looks very young and I would not shoot that and pay a full trophy fee for it.
If the PH, outfitter or landowner offered me to shoot the animal for a cull price or even for free, because they needed to reduce the male Kudu population, I would most likely do so.

It is totally different when the PH tells you to shoot an animal that is not mature and expect you to pay full trophy price as they(PH, outfitter and landowner) know that the novice most likely will not know it is immature or will not protest as they will avoid a heated situation in a place far away from home.

On my first hunt in South Africa I bought a package from an agent and in hindsight I feel that I was asked/told to shoot 2 immature animals because the PHs most likely was told by the landowner and outfitter(same person) to make sure that I filled my package, even if it had to be done with immature animals.
I made the rookie mistake to not educate myself on how a mature animal of every animal I was hunting look like and I totally trusted that the PH would tell me to shoot the right animal.
I told the PH and the outfitter/landowner that I didn't care about score at all.
All I wanted was mature animals without any broken tips.

During the hunt I was told to shoot a Kudu bull that was immature and to top it all, he had a broken tip.
I didn't have the time to look much at the Kudu bull myself as I was focusing to get a shot at a nice Impala ram when I was told by the PH to quickly take a shot at a Kudu bull that came out of the bush to the right of the Impalas.
I just moved my rifle, got the crosshair on the vitals of the bull and pulled the trigger.
When I approached the Kudu bull with a broken tip as well, I really didn't feel happy about it.
Still today I regret that I did not speak up about it, but I guess I convinced myself to give the PH the benefit of doubt that he didn't notice the broken tip.
After I came home, I learned that he was not a mature bull either and I really regretted that I didn't speak up about it all.

The next day I was told to shoot a immature Impala ram by another PH, and I had no idea at the time, but it doesn't bother me, even today, as I had a fantastic stalk with lots of great experiences, animal encounters and memories with a PH I really liked to hunt with.
I still enjoy the memories of that hunting day

What really bothers me about it all, is that the outfitter/landowner didn't say anything when he looked at those two animals.
He clearly was totally satisfied with me shooting animals like that to fill my package.

When I came home, I was asked by the agent to email them pics of my animals as they wanted to put them up on their home page.
I did and "strangely" enough they didn't use any of the pics on their home page at all
Maybe it was because of the ugly Norwegian in the pics

 

[Wheels]

.
When I came home, I was asked by the agent to email them pics of my animals as they wanted to put them up on their home page.
I did and "strangely" enough they didn't use any of the pics on their home page at all
Maybe it was because of the ugly Norwegian in the pics

Outfitters post photos of my animals, but they don't include me in the photos. Now I understand why.

 

[ActionBob]

The reasoning I got for the landowner to charge full price is that it was not a cull. That bull likely would have grown into a very good mature animal with very good size. I can understand that rational even if I might have questioned it.

The outfitter was not present on the hunt and it was up to the client and PH to make these decisions. The client decided and is happy so no issue there.

I myself have blown opportunities to shoot good trophies. Missed clean, yes on more than one occasion. Squeezed the trigger and heard a click, been there done that when I had a caracal dead to rights... shit happens.... Do I practice, you bet... Enough, tough to ever practice enough.

Can I envision a possibility of blowing a couple opportunities and having the PH readily agree to me shooting something too young, perhaps but I hope not. Do I blame this PH? Not completely... I've never met him but have heard good things. Dobber noted there were two kudu there when he shot... I can comprehend a possible situation where there might have even been three! The PH could have been looking at a different animal than the hunter.... What does a professional PH do when the shot breaks and the animal falls and it is inferior to the one he thought was getting shot? If it is legal I can imagine he pats the client on the back and says "good shot!"... At that point is there any sense to embarrassing a client? The critter is down and needs to be dealt with. What should he say.. Hey dumb ass you shot the wrong one? On the other hand if the client missed a couple and really wants one, says he is happy and wants to shoot "this one".... I can imagine a PH feeling pressure to let it happen... Again I don't know the circumstances but if it is a package deal, take the animal or pay anyway... I could see the PH feeling the pressure if he is running out of time.

Now I am not saying any of these things happened, just saying there are lots of things that happen on a Safari.

I think a couple of things should happen on any safari and certainly on a first time one. I was fortunate to have a very good and well spoken PH on my first hunt... The first thing he did was go over our expectations and lay out reality to us. I wanted to shoot a 42" Kudu that was very wide and good looking... He told me no... He explained how it was not mature so off limits. (they had a lot of pressure on kudu), and that as we had a 9 day hunt he had a personal goal of topping 45" for me(East Cape, hard pressured area). I asked "why for me" and he explained we had a 9 day hunt so he was confident he could do it. But on a 4 or 5 day hunt he would lower those standards if the client really wanted a kudu.

It was a package with add on's. However I think we would be credited 85% of the list trophy fee if we did not shoot a package animal... It was 1 each of these 3, and 2 of these 4. And it was mentioned we could trade stuff around so if we had not taken all the package animals (we did, and then more), knowing the outfitter better now, I think we would have received full credit towards others.

So I would never book a package without the option of receiving some form of credit if I did not get an animal.

I have just been talking to another PH who made an interesting comment. He said that he does not carry a gun on a PG safari. and he tells his clients to leave their binos in the truck. It is his job to evaluate the animal and when he sets the sticks up, it is the clients place to get on them and get the animal in the scope.... He told me he gets frustrated when he says to shoot, looks back and the client has his rifle slung over his shoulder and he is looking through binos.

 

[Wheels]

. Dobber noted there were two kudu there when he shot... I can comprehend a possible situation where there might have even been three! The PH could have been looking at a different animal than the hunter.... What does a professional PH do when the shot breaks and the animal falls and it is inferior to the one he thought was getting shot?
.

Bob,

It is certainly understandable how this hypothetical can take place. It probably happens more than client's realize. Especially when a hunter doesn't have much experience hunting the subject species, or hunting with a guide or PH. Or when a PH is young or new to the business.

This example should not happen with an experienced PH. The PH puts up the sticks and the hunter shoulders his rifle. If the PH isn't 100% sure of the aim, he takes a quick step back to verify the rifle is lined up on the correct animal. This is an elementary rule of being a PH.

If the above scenario is what happened, then it is the PH who is at fault and the kudu should either be a n/c or a cull price.