Thought Provoking Question: How Many Of You Would Use A Smaller Calibre If It Were Legal?

[Newboomer]

True, and it should not be a criteria. The correct procedure is to use the largest caliber you are proficient with. Everyone has their limits, be it recoil, physical, monetary or other. Personal preference and proficiency. If you can't handle it, get something you can handle and get good with it. It will work much better than the alternative.

I don't know what my recoil limit is. The largest caliber to date is my 375HH with Barnes 350 gr TSX. I can handle it and hit what I aim at. My go to rig.

 

[Lyleedward]

It depends on the person pulling the trigger and the guide ( what position the guide can get the client in for a good shot). My wife and youngest daughter can shoot 375 hh fine. Some guns like the hyme kick like hell others like my safari ruger is mild. Fast Bullets Dont Wk on DG. I think if u can’t spend enough time practicing to shoot a well balanced 375 well maybe u shouldn’t hunt DG. I use the biggest I can shoot well. my Merkel double 500 ne is my upper limit. And I need to shoot it regularly with cheaper projectiles to keep flinching at bay. Of course projectiles are the biggest game changer. A 338 with Woodlieghs will out preform a 375 with say old hornady ammo. It’s a hard question lot of variables. But I think the minimum should stay to keep a base line to cover all hunters. Use enough gun. And shoot often to shoot it well.

 

[Frederik]

Interesting question.

Most game laws in Africa were made before we had fantastic bullets, but then again how do you check or enforce that with a certain minimum you have to use such and such a bullet.

To simplify use minimum calibers.

Other question comes to mind the minimum is set for the game animal not if the hunt is guided or not?
So would you on your own take on buffalo and elephant with a 9.3x62 without backup?

I would consider the following as minimums with premium bullets of today:

Leopard - .270 calibre minimum bullet weight 15ogr
Crocodile - .30 calibre minimum bullet weight 150gr
Lion - .35 calibre minimum with 250gr bullet weight (I have seen a 400gr swift from a 416 Rem not exit on a lion male tensed up on a high shoulder broadside shot range was 25 meters)
Buffalo - .366 or 9.3x62 caliber minimum bullet weight 286gr Mono/Solid shank bullets
Hippo - .366 or 9.3x62 caliber minimum bullet weight 286gr Mono/Solid shank bullets
Rhino - .366 or 9.3x62 caliber minimum bullet weight 286gr Mono/Solid shank bullets
Elephant - .366 or 9.3x62 caliber minimum bullet weight 286gr Mono solid only

 

[Bruce]

Having hunted the dangerous 7 of Africa, I personally would not use anything less than a 375 H&H Magnum with Swift A Frame softs and Premium solids on DG.
However, years ago while living in Zambia, I met an elderly gentleman with outstanding hunting experience. He recorded EVERY shot fired at an animal, noting date, time, weather conditions, wind, angle of bullet entry etc. He had hordes of logbooks with all this data... AND HE ONLY USED A 7MM MAGNUM!!!
His advice to me... "it's ALL about shot placement, laddie"!!!!
My late father was an incredible shot... All with iron sights... Post WW2 he shot many buffalo in Rhodesia using his trusty 303 and army issue FMJ bullets, as nothing else was available. Again this boiled down to shooting ability, confidence and correct shot placement.
In modern times, I think it ludicrous to even contemplate using smaller calibers to tempt fate.. IMO.

 

[Lyleedward]

Interesting. I don't have African experience yet. A lot of guys hunt big bears with 300s and 338s so I'm sure they could work on a lion. I have heard a few more experienced hunters make the argument that the greater frontal area of the 375 makes for a better stopper then a 338. I don't know enough to say.

I wonder what the Aussie hunters think. Aren't they able to hunt water buffalo with smaller cartridges? Would that be comparable to a Cape buffalo?

Hi yep we shoot plenty guiding for the last 30 years. They are hard to stop our camp also adopted the 375 min. It covers a lot of variables. We have had a lot of charges last few years, we use doubles wen guiding or hunting now. One of our guides was almost killed a couple of years back from unprovoked charge at 20 feet He got one shot into bull with his bolt action 450 lot and it got him as he closed the bolt for the second shot. Client killed the bull before it killed the guide. Water buff are hard to stop if they get going so we anchor them. Thick Bush with a mad bull is no fun.

 

[HWL]

When forced to sit at home, and cannot hunt, I love caliber discussions.

It gives me a good feeling to have answers in .470 .458 .446 .430 .423 .413 .411 .410 .375 .366 .358.

Damned, I hate this corona shit....

Season has opened again since 01. of april, and I badly need to go out and kill someting.




HWL

 

[Opposite Pole]

Interesting. I don't have African experience yet. A lot of guys hunt big bears with 300s and 338s so I'm sure they could work on a lion. I have heard a few more experienced hunters make the argument that the greater frontal area of the 375 makes for a better stopper then a 338. I don't know enough to say.

I wonder what the Aussie hunters think. Aren't they able to hunt water buffalo with smaller cartridges? Would that be comparable to a Cape buffalo?

You can hunt water buff with 223 if you want (and your companions don’t mind). Thousands have been shot with 270Win, 308Win, 30-06 and similar during Tuberculosis Eradication Campaign. However these were typically solids shot through CNS. For body shots this is a poor idea as even larger calibers fail to break bones sometimes. It’s a bit like Bell and his 275Rigby, shot through the brain or spine it’ll work. Make a mistake or have the animal move during the shot and problems start as you now have a wounded animal. It is potentially dangerous to you and others around you. I also consider unnecessary wounding of game to be immoral and cruel, our ethical obligation is to kill animals as quickly as possible. As such enough gun ought to be used.

 

[grand veneur]

After reading so far what kind of cartridges some hunters want to use for shooting buffaloes or elephants , it is very right to have a minimum caliber for hunting DG. Otherwise , I could hardly imagine the chaos that would arise.

Wild game are not targets where one can demonstrate his shooting skills. The ethics of hunters like Bell or a few others at the beginning of the 20th century are nowhere near the same as they are nowadays. It remains whether one has followed wounded game for a long time or not at all.

Therefore , caliber minimum 375 for hunting DG , 408 would be better , but then there is a lack of hunters who can handle this rifles , and this is not good for the business.

 

[gesch]

Dear Forum Members ,
As part of a survey for a new article which I am writing for African Hunting Forums .... I would like all of you gentle men to think and answer a question :
We all know that the .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre is the minimum legally permissible calibre for most species of dangerous game in most countries of Africa .
Back when I used to be a professional shikaree , working for Allwyn Cooper Limited in Nagpur , India ( from 1961 to 1970 ) , we had similar rules in 13 of the 30 states of India .
The .375 Holland & Holland magnum was the bare minimum legally permissible calibre for international client shikarees to use , on royal Bengal tigers , water buffaloes and gaur bison .
Below , as a reference ... I have provided a scan of a page of my copy of our " Professional Shikaree's Regulation Book For Uttar Pradesh ( 1968 Edition ) . Observe Section 14.

View attachment 341950
Now , my question to all of you is this :
Assuming that there were no legal regulations in place ... how many of you would opt for a smaller calibre ?

I personally have mixed feelings about such legal regulations . When I was guiding clients in the 17 " unregulated " states of India ... I used to see my clients successfully lay low dozens of royal Bengal tigers by using .338 Winchester magnum calibre or 9.3 × 62 mm Mauser calibre bolt rifles or 9.3 × 74 mm Rimmed calibre double barreled rifles . Not once did any of these calibres prove to be inadequate in the hands of my clients .
Infact , countless of my clients even successfully dispatched 2000 pound gaur bison with these calibres with utter impunity .
My client who took the most royal Bengal tigers ( 1 taken every year from 1964 to 1970 ) used a .30-06 Springfield calibre sporterized Enfield Model 1917 bolt rifle , loaded with 220 grain Winchester Silver Tip soft point cartridges . He absolutely despised the recoil of the .375 Holland & Holland magnum , but proved to be more than a match for 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers , armed with a .30-06 Springfield calibre rifle .

The smallest calibre rifle ever used by 1 of my clients to successfully dispatch a royal Bengal tiger ... was a .243 Winchester calibre Savage Model 110 bolt rifle , loaded with 105 grain Winchester soft point cartridges.
Of course , attempting such a feat is really " pushing your luck " .
View attachment 342063

On the other end of the spectrum .... there IS something called " Too Little Power " . In 1965, an American client of another Indian shikar outfitters had actually lost his life by attempting to hunt a 500 pound male royal Bengal tiger , with a .220 Swift calibre pre 64 Winchester Model 70 .

I also noticed that the smaller the calibre being utilized... the more critical shot placement becomes . I personally observed during my 10 year career that , while the 9.3×62 mm Mauser calibre and the .476 Westley Richards calibre are BOTH capable of killing a 2000 pound male gaur bison ...
shot placement needs to be far more critical with the 9.3×62 mm Mauser calibre .
What are each of your thoughts on this subject ? Would any of you opt for a calibre smaller than the .375 Holland & Holland magnum to use against dangerous game , if the law allowed it ? What would you opt for and what animal would it be ?
Speaking only for myself ... I would personally opt for a 9.3x74 mm Rimmed calibre double barreled side by side rifle for use against royal Bengal tigers .
Your thoughts and opinions will be warmly welcomed , and shall be used in the survey of my upcoming article.
Yours sincerely,
Major Poton Khan ( Retired )

Thank you Poton for another intriguing post. I think it is interesting from a technical standpoint(objective). It is also fascinating from the perspective of what it reveals about the hunter(subjective). I think you are a student of human nature and that is a blessing to our forum! I always learn something from your posts. Thanks again. Your friend, Brian

 

[Hunting Sailor]

The legal minimums are set for a reason (right, wrong, or indifferent) and if you don’t agree with the regulations, then go to work on them.
Why would you not follow the minimum caliber rules? You follow many other rules. If you’re caught out using the wrong caliber you may or may not be in trouble.
Different countries, states, provinces etc have different rules for the same animals of the same size and built. Find out the correct legal limits for your intended area and they may surprise you.
If the minimums doesn’t look powerful enough go up.
For example look at the Cape Ordinance 1974 that direct the minimums for the animals to be hunted in the Eastern Cape up until now, they may be on the lower side of what most people would think is suitable for animals (including Buffalo that seems to be a hot topic above and in another current thread).

So to answer the Major above: Yes I would if I had the legal and logistic option.
However I would not buy a smaller rifle to use on one side of a line on a map, just because it was legal there. Hope that make sense.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I'd dare say that the .30-06 has enough energy to take all the game in Africa. I'm also going to reach for something much larger than that if I have to pursue something wounded. I'd either go .458 Lott in my single shot or .375 bolt action as it is what I have. I would not be in a hurry either. Hurried men make mistakes.

 

[PARA45]

I believe we have deviated from the OP's question.

"Now , my question to all of you is this :
Assuming that there were no legal regulations in place ... how many of you would opt for a smaller calibre ?"

 

[Tanks]

I'd dare say that the .30-06 has enough energy to take all the game in Africa. I'm also going to reach for something much larger than that if I have to pursue something wounded. ...

30-06 is not sufficient or barely marginal for Eland let alone an Elephant. You'd be reaching for something far larger after every shot at DG as you'd have a very pissed off wounded animal.

 

[Longwalker]

This has been an interesting discussion, and fun to participate in the comfort of our homes in front of a computer screen. I completely agree that one should shoot the largest bore / most powerful cartridge that they can master and have access to when shooting very large & dangerous game like Buffalo & Elephant. I wonder if it is possible to have too much of a "good thing" with some of the smaller, faster dangerous game animals like the cats?
In the original question, Major Khan asks what our opinions are of clients who used 9.3's or .338 rifles to hunt Tigers. Those with more experience in hunting the big cats could correct me, but my understanding is that the cats are at least somewhat vulnerable to bullet "shock". From my "book learning" I deduce that, provided a bullet has adequate penetration, holds together and has enough bone breaking momentum, a somewhat faster bullet that produces more soft tissue damage may kill cats quicker. If that is true, I would presume that a Tiger/Lion/Leopard might be killed more efficiently with a .338 Winchester or 9.3 bullet traveling a few hundred feed per second faster than a typical .40 - 45 caliber bullet. Is that an unreasonable assumption from someone with no personal experience?
I also observe in my own shooting skills or lack thereof, I can get on target a little quicker and can certainly follow up with an aimed second shot much quicker with my 9.3x74R double than I can with my .375 bolt action or my .450-400 double. That little Beretta rifle fits me like a lively bird gun, doesn't kick much, and I can shoot it in full comfort. I wouldn't carry it for elephant, but for cats? I would certainly consider it. Is that foolish?

 

[Tanks]

... That little Beretta rifle fits me like a lively bird gun, doesn't kick much, and I can shoot it in full comfort. I wouldn't carry it for elephant, but for cats? I would certainly consider it. Is that foolish?

Well, you can have the best of both worlds with today's bullets and big bores. My .500 MDM shoots a 335 grain tipped CEB raptor at 2,950 fps with devastating results while with a 500 grain solid it is deadly on elephants.

On the video below the bear was dead before it hit the ground. When we opened it up the chest cavity was soup, the heart was shredded and there were no large pieces. I did see some petals (raptors break off the petals and they keep going in a star pattern like shrapnel) but the main part of the bullet had exited.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I'd dare say that the .30-06 has enough energy to take all the game in Africa. I'm also going to reach for something much larger than that if I have to pursue something wounded. I'd either go .458 Lott in my single shot or .375 bolt action as it is what I have. I would not be in a hurry either. Hurried men make mistakes.

I bet a 30-06 with 220 grain solids would be every bit as effective as a 7x57 with 175 solids.

 

[Standard Velocity]

Yes and no.

I don’t like phrases like “no replacement for displacement” because they are often oversimplified and incorrect. I do generally live by this one though because, in my experience, it may not always be correct, but it’s rarely wrong.

Too many people, in my opinion, depend on bullet technology to overcome physics and material properties of metals. Lead and copper have physical limits.

A screaming fast 338 may blow up three inches in while a plodding bullet of same weight and caliber will plow right through. Surely this can happen with a 378 Weatherby Magnum too, but the man who’s man enough to fire it can just punch the buffalo in the face anyway.

A 375 H&H, with a 300 grain Partition or A Frame, will provide predictable performance for it’s entire point blank range. Same can be said for a properly constructed solid.

The newfangled monometal projectiles appear to be well designed and provide a dependable performance envelope according to many. I have zero personal experience with them on game though. If what is said is true they may provide the ability to take one step down in caliber across the board.

The one and only time I have lost an animal was because I had begun to believe the hype about a new bullet. At 80 yards it was going fast enough to blow up on the shoulder. Had the bullet even been a cup-and-core soft point it probably would have made it through.

A body who is unable or unwilling to tolerate a 375 may aught to pick a different game to play. No need to lower the bar.

 

[Timbo]

Personally, for true DG (ie: Africa), I think it's best to use the largest calibre you can use competently and confidently. For those recoil conscious, or using anything up to 375 calibre, it's wise to have someone backing you with a "charge stopper" if things go awry.

But for me, I'm happy using my 458WM for DG, knowing that I have enough gun if things get dicey. Though I've taken a cape buff with my 9.3x62, I'd be happy to do so again with my PH backing me with a 400 calibre or larger.

As for water buffalo, I had a mate I used to work with who was a professional buffalo shooter for many years - and through all that time, he only ever used a 303/25.

 

[Tanks]

...

A body who is unable or unwilling to tolerate a 375 may aught to pick a different game to play. No need to lower the bar.

Where there is a will, there is a way. The guy pictured (Stan) is maybe 125 lbs, and he has taken an upwards of 25+ elephants (searching for the 100 pounder). Also, in the video you can see the gun pushing him back a couple of steps after the shot. Shooting a .500 MDM, 500 grain solid at 2,250 fps.

 

[Standard Velocity]

Where there is a will, there is a way. The guy pictured (Stan) is maybe 125 lbs, and he has taken an upwards of 25+ elephants (searching for the 100 pounder). Also, in the video you can see the gun pushing him back a couple of steps after the shot. Shooting a .500 MDM, 500 grain solid at 2,250 fps.

I’m not 125 lbs small but not a whole lot bigger either. I don’t enjoy the recoil but am also not bothered too much by it. 375 is about as big as I can enjoy shooting off the bench. With the exception of the intolerably high recoiling cartridges shooting offhand makes most anything tolerable.

Guys twice my size who are used to shooting a 30-06 act like I’m shooting a cannon. I think the most punishing recoil is between the ears.