The old crf vs prf debate....

[Fastrig]

"Hate to tell you but a CRF in that situation is just as likely to fuck up. Very easily in fact. Have seen this in non dangerous game hunting. Has more to do with the feed lips. Rifle bumped cartridge jumps the feed rails up front and is down to far the back for bolt to pick up or the nose is pointing in wrong direction and jams on side of chamber mouth/action side. Not saying this was the case in your friends situation but sounds like it.[/QUOT

I am not able to mention the make of the rifle but it was not a true CRF. The bolt actually malfunctioned due to the stress he put on it and it would not close on a round. It was not a jam or feeding issue."

Scott now you really have me scratching my head. So you are saying that it wasn’t a feeding issue with your friends rifle but rather a bolt failure? Why the hell have we been going back and forth over PF vs CF being the problem if it was a bolt failure? That bit of information kind of changes the whole conversation and can’t be attributed to either type of feed system. NOW I can see why the manufacture would pay his medical bills, especially if they knew they had faulty bolts on some of their rifles. I feel even more sorry for your friend now as that must have been terrifying to have the bolt break like that, but CF or PF in that situation wouldn’t make a bit of bloody difference. He must have nerves of steel to have gotten through that.

 

[fourfive8]

Couple of more pics showing scope rotation on 450 Watts- MRC action. I don't know if it may eject a case into a scope turret or not. But so easy to prevent, no need to mess with it. The MRC '99 design is kind of a Win 70/Mauser hybrid.

 

[Scott CWO]

Sorry if you took those as criticism of your friend, but nothing could be further from the truth. I do not think he did a damn thing wrong, as a matter of fact, in the circumstance he was in I’d say he did everything right. I found that a rifle manufacture paid his medical bills surprising, not sure how that can be construed as a criticism of him. My little impromptu test was no criticism either, it was merely to see what would happen if I was in that kind of position, i.e. would my rifle cycle upside down, could I bring the rifle to a shooting position if a bear or other critter was on top of me, and would my PF vs CF rifle be a hinderance. And the last quote was in context of a bear thrashing a person around like a rag doll, again presuming the bear was on top of you. You’ll have to excuse me if I point out that your rendition of the events expanded over several posts and it wasn’t till the very last one where you said the bear backed off and or had your friend’s foot where he could get to his rifle. The original posts said the animal was on top of him going for his head and face, which prompted me to think how the hell could anyone do more than what your friend did to defend himself, and I’ll stand by my comments based on what you originally imparted. Again, I’m very glad your friend is okay and sorry if you took anything I said as a criticism of him as they weren’t meant that way in the least.

Just let it go. The bear was trying to get at him any way it could. His legs, then up by his head, etc... a fluid situation. My rendition has only expanded because you need making statements that you have no basis to make and I have to keep clarifying and correcting you.

You did say it was not the rifle’s fault which then implies he did something wrong. Read your own words.

 

[Scott CWO]

"Hate to tell you but a CRF in that situation is just as likely to fuck up. Very easily in fact. Have seen this in non dangerous game hunting. Has more to do with the feed lips. Rifle bumped cartridge jumps the feed rails up front and is down to far the back for bolt to pick up or the nose is pointing in wrong direction and jams on side of chamber mouth/action side. Not saying this was the case in your friends situation but sounds like it.[/QUOT

I am not able to mention the make of the rifle but it was not a true CRF. The bolt actually malfunctioned due to the stress he put on it and it would not close on a round. It was not a jam or feeding issue."

Scott now you really have me scratching my head. So you are saying that it wasn’t a feeding issue with your friends rifle but rather a bolt failure? Why the hell have we been going back and forth over PF vs CF being the problem if it was a bolt failure? That bit of information kind of changes the whole conversation and can’t be attributed to either type of feed system. NOW I can see why the manufacture would pay his medical bills, especially if they knew they had faulty bolts on some of their rifles. I feel even more sorry for your friend now as that must have been terrifying to have the bolt break like that, but CF or PF in that situation wouldn’t make a bit of bloody difference. He must have nerves of steel to have gotten through that.

It was a push feed issue and the bolt. Stop.

 

[Rule 303]

I hate to tell you it has to have been unless the bolt had to much play and was jammed into the side of the rails or broken. I have not had this happen with a PF but have with a CRF. Your insistence that it is a PF issued shows a lack of understanding of the issue or just a pig headed attitude against PF if what you are describing to us is the truth of the matter.

Just to let you know I would not touch a CRF for the first 15 years of my shooting history. Why? Because I saw so many of them fucking up including doing things they are not suppose to do. It wasn't until a bloke who knew the M98 inside and out showed my why that I developed a trust in the CRF. All the fuck ups were faulty parts and or operator error.

 

[Ray B]

Do you guys us the F word around your mothers?

 

[Fastrig]

Do you guys us the F word around your mothers?

Nope, she’s 75 and would still smack me if I did

 

[Ray B]

Being 71 I can recall those days of adolescence when it was considered grown-up to use potty-mouth when no adults were around so I can understand why those that are still in that stage of development use such language here, however, they should ask themselves :what is the purpose of my posting?" If it is to impart some knowledge then they may want to realize that they have just scuttled their efforts because as soon as I see such language I dismiss anything the poster is saying and delete/ignore the remainder of the post. If you want to have me and others that had a normal childhood and up-bringing to read your messages you may want to review your vocabulary.

 

[Standard Velocity]

I curse like a sailor in company who can appreciate that it’s for emphasis and helps convey the emotion behind my statements.

However, it is off putting to be in a restaurant, airport, store or any other public space that strangers are using vulgar language. I look around at 85 year old couples and realize they not only are offended but are resigned to do nothing; too old, too feeble to get into an argument with a millennial.

Psychological studies have shown cursing amongst strangers makes them ignore you while among close associates and even coworkers creates a sense of kinship and commonality.

In Internet forums we get to know bits and pieces about one another but not nearly as well as we think. Our conversations lack the modes of communication which facilitate real understanding. A twenty minute conversation in person would show many of us that our mutual interests represent just a small part of who we are.

More civil conversations can probably be had here with a minimal level of vulgarity. As adults we should feel free to go PG-13 for strong emphasis though. I reserve the right to use strategically placed asterisks to use any word fit for the situation.

 

[Bonk]

Since this thread was recently resurrected it was my first opportunity to read it and read it I did. Cover to cover. I was hoping to hear actual experiences regarding dangerous situations where the type of feed made or might have made a difference. Eleven pages later there were exactly two actual cases. Cousin Bongo and Scott CWO. There were probably some in the link Major Khan provided but I was too lazy to go and read it. Based on his previous posts I'm sure there were some very relevant examples and conclusions to be found there.

I'm not real sure why a couple of posters are taking exception with Scott's example. The facts are clear. PF rifle. Rifle malfunctioned. Bear attacks. Hunter severely injured. No way to shoot back due to malfunctioning rifle. What else do you need to know?

Now, it's possible that a CRF could have failed in those circumstances but it wasn't a CRF. It was PF and it was a real world real life example of what can happen when things go wrong. OTOH, I'm still waiting to read an example of where a CRF rifle failed and someone got hurt/maimed/killed. I'm 100% sure that some where some time that has happened. However, since the OP specifically requested real life examples and so far very little has been provided. We having the usual abundance of opinions regarding CFF vs PF but that's about it. Kudo's to the OP for asking an excellent question. Too bad it predictably went off the rails.

Thanks to Scott CWO we have at least one real life example where a modern PF rifle malfunctioned at exactly the wrong time. I suppose one could nit pick Scott's friend about what he should or shouldn't have done but two things stand out in my mind. First and foremost, WE WEREN"T THERE. We have no idea what exactly happened and whether or not Scott's friend contributed to the malfunction or the attack. Two, based on the information provided it sounds like any other hunting scenario where nothing went wrong. Except this time it did go horribly wrong. The hunter was probably using the same gear/rifle he'd used on a hundred other hunts so it's kind of tough to second guess after the fact.

I've owned exactly 1 Remington 700. It was a 30-06 and my primary deer rifle for 20 years. Then I was made aware of the safety problem regarding M700's firing when the safety was moved from safe to fire. While it was rare in comparison to the number of 700's manufactured it was enough for me to swear off them forever. I will never own another Remington 700. YMMV.

I have a bunch of hunting rifles. All but one are Ruger M77 Hawkeyes and CZ550's. Therefore all of them are CRF. That's by design on my part. While I acknowledge that any mechanical device can fail or malfunction I prefer to have mechanical devices that are built to minimize failure as much as possible. In my mind that means I will always choose a CRF rifle over a PF. Doesn't mean a CRF can't fail but I have more confidence in them than PF rifles. To be honest the two rifles I had the most difficulty with were CRF rifles but the problems had nothing to do with the bolt. Both were Kimbers BTW. I own exactly one PF rifle. It's a late 90's Winchester M70 XTR 7mm Mauser. It's utterly reliable but I don't plan on hunting any DG with any time soon.

CRF or PF? Choose what works best for you. I'll always choose CRF over PF all else being equal and I'll never embark on a DG hunt without a CRF rifle in my hands. As others have already stated my primary concern is extraction rather than controlled feed. I won't rehash the reasons why because others have already explained why that's important. YMMV.

 

[Rule 303]

Do you guys us the F word around your mothers?

She dead but probably would if it warranted it. If it offends then I hope you never use it. It is just a thing most Australians do when talking with other adults and I don't pay much attention to it. However for you genteel folk are easily offended by it, I will try not to. Just to explain the last sentence is what we call a piss take.

I will take onboard your concerns but find them somewhat strange given the context it was used in.

 

[Ray B]

If it offends then I hope you never use it.

If I am talking about sexual intercourse then the word may be used. However, if I want an expletive, my vocabulary is sufficient that I can use a word that will be acceptable to the entire audience.

 

[Rule 303]

Bonk I think you are missing something. Scott has given a vague account of something that went wrong. We still do not know exactly what it was and is a hearsay account. Did it really happen, I suspect something similar to the account did but nobody on the forum was there to see it. So we have Chinese whispers coming into effect. On top of that, from the information given it could of happened to any PF or CRF. So the facts in Scotts case are far from clear, very murky and questionable in fact.

You say that no example has been given of a CRF stuff up that caused a death while hunting DG. Yet plenty of examples of CRF failures have been given, do you really need them to be from the DG field for them to hold validity?

 

[Rule 303]

If I am talking about sexual intercourse then the word may be used. However, if I want an expletive, my vocabulary is sufficient that I can use a word that will be acceptable to the entire audience.

Different cultures. The way I used the F word is quite acceptable and common in Aussie.

 

[JimP]

Different cultures. The way I used the F word is quite acceptable and common in Aussie.

I had a lady friend from England who spouted the F work about every other word just like it was a common word.

But when I started using bloody when I was talking she about knocked me off of my feet it offender her so much.

 

[Rule 303]

I had a lady friend from England who spouted the F work about every other word just like it was a common word.

But when I started using bloody when I was talking she about knocked me off of my feet it offender her so much.

.
When I was in the Army Reserves we were in New Zealand with some Hawaiian National Guards. In the mess one night one of the Hawaiians said he thought we were hustlers. I had to stop several blokes from punching him out. I asked him what he meant by Hustlers. he said, you know you get out there and hustle, work hard get things done. I explained to him that in Aussie a Hustler was a con man, rip off merchant.

Same language and different meanings or standards. Provides plenty of amusement all round at times.

 

[Scott CWO]

Since this thread was recently resurrected it was my first opportunity to read it and read it I did. Cover to cover. I was hoping to hear actual experiences regarding dangerous situations where the type of feed made or might have made a difference. Eleven pages later there were exactly two actual cases. Cousin Bongo and Scott CWO. There were probably some in the link Major Khan provided but I was too lazy to go and read it. Based on his previous posts I'm sure there were some very relevant examples and conclusions to be found there.

I'm not real sure why a couple of posters are taking exception with Scott's example. The facts are clear. PF rifle. Rifle malfunctioned. Bear attacks. Hunter severely injured. No way to shoot back due to malfunctioning rifle. What else do you need to know?

Now, it's possible that a CRF could have failed in those circumstances but it wasn't a CRF. It was PF and it was a real world real life example of what can happen when things go wrong. OTOH, I'm still waiting to read an example of where a CRF rifle failed and someone got hurt/maimed/killed. I'm 100% sure that some where some time that has happened. However, since the OP specifically requested real life examples and so far very little has been provided. We having the usual abundance of opinions regarding CFF vs PF but that's about it. Kudo's to the OP for asking an excellent question. Too bad it predictably went off the rails.

Thanks to Scott CWO we have at least one real life example where a modern PF rifle malfunctioned at exactly the wrong time. I suppose one could nit pick Scott's friend about what he should or shouldn't have done but two things stand out in my mind. First and foremost, WE WEREN"T THERE. We have no idea what exactly happened and whether or not Scott's friend contributed to the malfunction or the attack. Two, based on the information provided it sounds like any other hunting scenario where nothing went wrong. Except this time it did go horribly wrong. The hunter was probably using the same gear/rifle he'd used on a hundred other hunts so it's kind of tough to second guess after the fact.

I've owned exactly 1 Remington 700. It was a 30-06 and my primary deer rifle for 20 years. Then I was made aware of the safety problem regarding M700's firing when the safety was moved from safe to fire. While it was rare in comparison to the number of 700's manufactured it was enough for me to swear off them forever. I will never own another Remington 700. YMMV.

I have a bunch of hunting rifles. All but one are Ruger M77 Hawkeyes and CZ550's. Therefore all of them are CRF. That's by design on my part. While I acknowledge that any mechanical device can fail or malfunction I prefer to have mechanical devices that are built to minimize failure as much as possible. In my mind that means I will always choose a CRF rifle over a PF. Doesn't mean a CRF can't fail but I have more confidence in them than PF rifles. To be honest the two rifles I had the most difficulty with were CRF rifles but the problems had nothing to do with the bolt. Both were Kimbers BTW. I own exactly one PF rifle. It's a late 90's Winchester M70 XTR 7mm Mauser. It's utterly reliable but I don't plan on hunting any DG with any time soon.

CRF or PF? Choose what works best for you. I'll always choose CRF over PF all else being equal and I'll never embark on a DG hunt without a CRF rifle in my hands. As others have already stated my primary concern is extraction rather than controlled feed. I won't rehash the reasons why because others have already explained why that's important. YMMV.

@Bonk thank you. You sum it up nicely.

 

[Scott CWO]

Do you guys us the F word around your mothers?

Thanks Ray and now I am also pigheaded for revealing a TRUE STORY that they just refuse to accept. It happened and I am attacked just for revealing it. Ridiculous.

 

[Scott CWO]

Bonk I think you are missing something. Scott has given a vague account of something that went wrong. We still do not know exactly what it was and is a hearsay account. Did it really happen, I suspect something similar to the account did but nobody on the forum was there to see it. So we have Chinese whispers coming into effect. On top of that, from the information given it could of happened to any PF or CRF. So the facts in Scotts case are far from clear, very murky and questionable in fact.

You say that no example has been given of a CRF stuff up that caused a death while hunting DG. Yet plenty of examples of CRF failures have been given, do you really need them to be from the DG field for them to hold validity?

@Rule 303 who are you to question my truthfulness on a public forum? I have provided most of the details of the attack. Due to an agreement with the manufacturer, my friend does not want me to name the specific PF rifle that failed. Together, my friend who was attacked and I have several decades of faithful guiding service in this industry and have served several terms as board members for outfitter-guide associations as well as being stakeholders and committee members for several game agencies and public land management agencies. I am one of the largest outfitters in the USA and I didn’t get there by telling lies or distorting situations. If you don’t like the FACT that my friend had a PF rifle fail on him at the most critical time so far in his career, get over it and move on. He is not telling lies and neither am I. My gosh, I also own a few PF rifles and I don’t hate them or I wouldn’t own them. IN MY OPINION, I prefer a CRF rifle for DG due to my experience, critical thinking skills and the experiences of others (like my friend) whom I trust. If you have drawn different conclusions through your experience or study, that’s just fine with me and I wish you well. Good day, Sir.

 

[Dr Ray]

Sure, they both can work under MOST circumstances and both can malfunction if dirty but that’s not the point.

A proper CRF rifle is a requirement in those circumstances when things go badly on a DG hunt with a wounded or charging animal or when you’ve been knocked down with your rifle inverted while laying on your back or side trying to get another round in the chamber! I’m not talking about shooting off of sticks here as a client. When things go haywire, you want a bolt that grabs onto that cartridge. I have been to Africa several times and I guide for brown bears in Alaska where a good friend of mine was horribly mauled by a wounded brown bear when his rifle malfunctioned after he was knocked down. That’s what a proper CRF rifle is for and anything less is a risk to your life and the others in your party.

Agreed although proper cycling if the bolt with a push feed should (note should) work fine.
The problem occurs when the push feed is short cycled and jams.