The old crf vs prf debate....

[Luvthunt]

Many of the old timers only needed one shot ,so used single shot rifles—what was that guys name—Frederick Courtney Selous? Ate lunch under his favorite Baobob? Tree a few times in my life. He did not need 3-5 in the mag. One shot—one kill.

 

[bruce moulds]

possibly the biggest blight on our lives is the proliferation of 3 lug actions appearing on the market.
they have come about due purely to lower cost of production, yet are sold as being beneficial due to shorter bolt lift.
this is actually their downfall, as by definition shorter bolt lift either has less distance of extraction on the cocking cam, or more likely a steeper cocking cam.
the higher gearing of this makes extraction harder.
modern receivers also seem to be round, as is the rem700, thus not having a flat bedding area.
ok for small cartridges, but not for bigger ones.
rem extractors can break, and do, under difficult conditions.
if you ever have drastic overpressure in a rem, and the whole case head flows, it coes into the extractor mechanism, and can be difficult to get out.
the old mauser breeches the case up to the extractor groove, giving full support, while the rem leaves some of the case head in mid air.
and name an action better for handling escaping gas better than the mauser in the event of a popped or burst primer.
bruce.

 

[Cousin Bongo]

adding a sako extractor improves the rem 700 in terms of extraction.
adding an extractor cam improves a sako.
bruce.

Personal story about the Sako extractor. My partner and I were hunting kafue lechwe and where many miles from the vehicle when the chance for a shot on a good bull finally happened for my partner. He was using a Sako chambered for 270 Winchester. He bought the rifle new and had used it on many hunts and fired a few hundred rounds without issue. Anyway, after firing, the cartridge would not extract. The extractor would grab the cartridge and we could feel it trying to extract, but the extractor just wasn’t strong enough to extract it and would slip off the rim, the bolt coming back without the cartridge. His rifle was out of action with a stuck case, neither he nor his PH had a cleaning rod or stuck case remover, and they were just starting to head back to the truck when my PH and I came across them. I happened to have a good steel break down rod with me and was able to knock the case out. Didn’t take all that much force either. Examination of the case revealed a single grain of grit embedded in the side of the case - something the extractor on my Mauser 98 wouldn’t have even hiccupped over. Extractor was in really good shape and he subsequently had no problems with it, but he never fully trusted that rifle again. Not saying the Sako extractor is weak - Sako are good rifles - but the extractor just isn’t as strong nor as forceful as the Mauser 98’s.

CB

 

[bruce moulds]

there is nothing like the feel of using a falling block, particularly with a black powder cartridge.
however in the real world, a magazine can be a great comfort, and potentially more humane.
extraction on falling blocks can sometimes leave a bit to be desired too.
bruce.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Cousin Bongo,

Right! That's the main virtue of the TRUE Mauser 98 extractor design!
Really, A LOT more important than the controlled FEED!!! That's it!!!!

 

[IvW]

Many of the old timers only needed one shot ,so used single shot rifles—what was that guys name—Frederick Courtney Selous? Ate lunch under his favorite Baobob? Tree a few times in my life. He did not need 3-5 in the mag. One shot—one kill.

it is 2018 not 18 something.

There are quotes as to how Selous was in fact not a crack shot, but a rather ordinary marksman.

He also had and used a .425 Westley Richards bolt action on a M98 action.

 

[Bas]

I believe there were occurrences that there was no one left to record stats.
Unless you have the expierence of Africa you may not realize that in many cases humans are prey not predators. Hence the need for a reliabile weapon and not for sport but for self protection.

I agree. I've even questioned why crocodiles are given game status instead of being targets of opportunity. I'm certain some indigenous people would be relieved if their numbers were further reduced.

 

[Von S.]

WELL, in a perfect world it does not matter whether CRF or PRF as the sport will make the shot so no need for a backup. However, should th PH feel the need to participate his 500-600-700 [whatever] will end all discussion.no need for a second from either party.

Do have to add one personal detail—when I hunted Namibia in 1993 my PH was carrying a REMINGTON 700. I know many of you PHs would know his name, he had been in the buisness a long time.

That's funny...... I have seen many push feeds hunting everything on this planet.

Many of my rifles are control feed, probably because I have built many and somehow have bought many in collections over the years. Of which many have been pre 64 mod 70s. I also have many Springfield 03.

The last collection that I bought was owned by a guy who I knew when he was a kid and after his wife left him he just put his life into guns and shooting. He was the finest shot i ever knew and also for an engineer he was a truly gifted machinist and gunsmith. And when we discussed this same subject we both came up to the conclusion that if there was no flaws in either , both would perform flawlessly.

Of course if people have weapons that look like they were used to stir hog slop neither will work, if people only neck instead of full length size or turn a 2100 fps round into a 2600 fps round there's gonna be trouble.

Things go wrong with anything mechanical no matter how well engineered. Look at the space shuttle.

I saw a phs Mauser not eject after firing. He finally put the butt on the ground and stomped it open . Crud was built up on the case and the chamber looked like it has been packed in Rock salt.

I guess that not all phs are weapons experts.

Learn your weapon, have a few hundred rounds through it before you take it out hunting.

Good luck

 

[Von S.]

WELL, in a perfect world it does not matter whether CRF or PRF as the sport will make the shot so no need for a backup. However, should th PH feel the need to participate his 500-600-700 [whatever] will end all discussion.no need for a second from either party.

Do have to add one personal detail—when I hunted Namibia in 1993 my PH was carrying a REMINGTON 700. I know many of you PHs would know his name, he had been in the buisness a long time.

That's funny...... I have seen many push feeds hunting everything on this planet.

Many of my rifles are control feed, probably because I have built many and somehow have bought many in collections over the years. Of which many have been pre 64 mod 70s. I also have many Springfield 03.

The last collection that I bought was owned by a guy who I knew when he was a kid and after his wife left him he just put his life into guns and shooting. He was the finest shot i ever knew and also for an engineer he was a truly gifted machinist and gunsmith. And when we discussed this same subject we both came up to the conclusion that if there was no flaws in either , both would perform flawlessly.

Of course if people have weapons that look like they were used to stir hog slop neither will work, if people only neck instead of full length size or turn a 2100 fps round into a 2600 fps round there's gonna be trouble.

Things go wrong with anything mechanical no matter how well engineered. Look at the space shuttle.

I saw a phs Mauser not eject after firing. He finally put the butt on the ground and stomped it open . Crud was built up on the case and the chamber looked like it has been packed in Rock salt.

I guess that not all phs are weapons experts.

Learn your weapon, have a few hundred rounds through it before you take it out hunting.

Good luck

 

[Fastrig]

That's funny...... I have seen many push feeds hunting everything on this planet.

Many of my rifles are control feed, probably because I have built many and somehow have bought many in collections over the years. Of which many have been pre 64 mod 70s. I also have many Springfield 03.

The last collection that I bought was owned by a guy who I knew when he was a kid and after his wife left him he just put his life into guns and shooting. He was the finest shot i ever knew and also for an engineer he was a truly gifted machinist and gunsmith. And when we discussed this same subject we both came up to the conclusion that if there was no flaws in either , both would perform flawlessly.

Of course if people have weapons that look like they were used to stir hog slop neither will work, if people only neck instead of full length size or turn a 2100 fps round into a 2600 fps round there's gonna be trouble.

Things go wrong with anything mechanical no matter how well engineered. Look at the space shuttle.

I saw a phs Mauser not eject after firing. He finally put the butt on the ground and stomped it open . Crud was built up on the case and the chamber looked like it has been packed in Rock salt.

I guess that not all phs are weapons experts.

Learn your weapon, have a few hundred rounds through it before you take it out hunting.

Good luck

Kind of chuckled on this one Von. I have and had both types of feeds and never have an issue with either, BUT my rifles are cleaned thoroughly when purchased and then after each use. If anything isn’t running smoothly I either fix it or have a smith do it. I’d use any of them on any hunt. If I didn’t trust a rifle I’d get rid of it. The only rifles I’ve seen truly have issues were those that others were using and weren’t taken care of properly, push or control feed doesn’t make a bit of difference when that occurs. Personally I find the control vs push feed argument to be similar to the debates between two similar rifle calibers, i.e. it boils down to perception is reality and personal preference.

 

[Scott CWO]

Sure, they both can work under MOST circumstances and both can malfunction if dirty but that’s not the point.

A proper CRF rifle is a requirement in those circumstances when things go badly on a DG hunt with a wounded or charging animal or when you’ve been knocked down with your rifle inverted while laying on your back or side trying to get another round in the chamber! I’m not talking about shooting off of sticks here as a client. When things go haywire, you want a bolt that grabs onto that cartridge. I have been to Africa several times and I guide for brown bears in Alaska where a good friend of mine was horribly mauled by a wounded brown bear when his rifle malfunctioned after he was knocked down. That’s what a proper CRF rifle is for and anything less is a risk to your life and the others in your party.

 

[Tanks]

Many of the old timers only needed one shot ,so used single shot rifles—what was that guys name—Frederick Courtney Selous? Ate lunch under his favorite Baobob? Tree a few times in my life. He did not need 3-5 in the mag. One shot—one kill.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. In a perfect situation you also don't need a big bore for DG

 

[Fastrig]

Sure, they both can work under MOST circumstances and both can malfunction if dirty but that’s not the point.

A proper CRF rifle is a requirement in those circumstances when things go badly on a DG hunt with a wounded or charging animal or when you’ve been knocked down with your rifle inverted while laying on your back or side trying to get another round in the chamber! I’m not talking about shooting off of sticks here as a client. When things go haywire, you want a bolt that grabs onto that cartridge. I have been to Africa several times and I guide for brown bears in Alaska where a good friend of mine was horribly mauled by a wounded brown bear when his rifle malfunctioned after he was knocked down. That’s what a proper CRF rifle is for and anything less is a risk to your life and the others in your party.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but in the case of brown bear in very close quarters I'd rather have a high caliber side arm in that situation (454, 460, etc. or even a 10mm), which is why I carried one both times I was in Alaska. If I could carry one when in Africa on a DG hunt, I'd do the same. I'd be more interested in putting as many heavy rounds, as fast a possible, into the attacking animal if they were that close, using quality ammo of course. If not a heavy side arm, then a short barrel lever action guide gun in 45-70.

 

[Scott CWO]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but in the case of brown bear in very close quarters I'd rather have a high caliber side arm in that situation (454, 460, etc. or even a 10mm), which is why I carried one both times I was in Alaska. If I could carry one when in Africa on a DG hunt, I'd do the same. I'd be more interested in putting as many heavy rounds, as fast a possible, into the attacking animal if they were that close, using quality ammo of course. If not a heavy side arm, then a short barrel lever action guide gun in 45-70.

Well those aren’t viable options for all the different scenarios one will encounter as a guide or PH at medium and short ranges. Carrying a sidearm wouldn’t be a bad decision in addition to a bolt action CRF rifle with QD scope mounts, iron sights and a detachable sling as an all-around choice for the different ranges and wet weather on the AK Peninsula, Kodiak and the ABC Islands. My backup rifle is a CZ550 .458 Lott that received the AHR #2 upgrades by Wayne. The rifle holds 5 down, 22” barrel, composite stock, Talley QD scope mounts, open sights, cerakote on all finishes, etc... It shoots 450gr or 500gr Swift A-Frame or Barnes TSX bullets very accurately. Of course there are other DG calibers and CRF actions that would also work well. I wouldn’t recommend a lever action rifle for a true DG rifle due to the weather and cleaning challenges in the bush.

 

[35bore]

Every branch of the US military (and many other countries) use a 700 push feed rifle for their long range work. So ya, definitely not for use in stressful situations, especially when your life or the life of your guys are at stake...

 

[CBH Australia]

Is this something that was started with early pushfeed? Early designs. Have they improved?
This will be debated for eternity and then someone will say get a Blaser R8 for reliability.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

OK, both works well at feeding cartridges (I still prefer a cf anyway). And, of course, ANY AND ALL SYSTEMS must be cared and cleaned properly!!! But the main thing here is the extraction phase. I think the Mauser 98 system should be called: Control Extraction System. At this, the Mauser 98 is, in my point of view, unsurpassed.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Always an interesting debate. I would posit, if push feed was failure prone, the military wouldn't be using that design in their autoloaders.

 

[Major Khan]

I see that several learned and experienced gentlemen are providing their insight on this subject . Thus , I felt that I might as well provide my own .
Below , is a link to an article which I have recently written for African Hunting Forums . It is titled " Tools Of The Trade : Rifles & Reliability .
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/tools-of-the-trade-rifles-reliability.55422/
I refer all of you gentlemen to the section " Push Feed Phobia " .
Please bear in mind that these are merely my personal observations on the subject , gathered from my 10 year career as a professional shikaree ( from 1961 to 1970 ) in Nagpur , India. I mean not to act authoritarian in my views , because I always believe in keeping an open mind when discussing any debatable subjects .

 

[Fastrig]

Well those aren’t viable options for all the different scenarios one will encounter as a guide or PH at medium and short ranges. Carrying a sidearm wouldn’t be a bad decision in addition to a bolt action CRF rifle with QD scope mounts, iron sights and a detachable sling as an all-around choice for the different ranges and wet weather on the AK Peninsula, Kodiak and the ABC Islands. My backup rifle is a CZ550 .458 Lott that received the AHR #2 upgrades by Wayne. The rifle holds 5 down, 22” barrel, composite stock, Talley QD scope mounts, open sights, cerakote on all finishes, etc... It shoots 450gr or 500gr Swift A-Frame or Barnes TSX bullets very accurately. Of course there are other DG calibers and CRF actions that would also work well. I wouldn’t recommend a lever action rifle for a true DG rifle due to the weather and cleaning challenges in the bush.

I was referring to options for close up encounters, not so much medium or short ranges, i.e. close to getting mauled. Would be dropping the rifle in those type of situations, pulling the side arm and firing five as quickly and accurately as possible. Lever action 45-70 is a great bear defense gun IMO, light, fast and hits with authority up close, but you’re right it’s not a primary but a backup. I’d personally use my Mauser M12 in 9.3x62 in Alaska (5+1) with 286 or 300 grain rounds, though any of the calibers you mentioned are superb as well...a 404J wouldn’t be bad either. Laminate stock, 22” barrel, extremely smooth action, QD mounts, iron sights, never jams no matter what you run through it, and the drop mag can be dropped and replaced very quickly.