THE KING

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by TOBY458, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. PaulT

    PaulT AH Elite

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    I got my first .375 in the late 80's.

    Since then I have had four or five different rifles, all having worked hard.

    A couple were sold when all that was salvageable were maybe the open sights and the triggers.

    When I was guiding buffalo hunters in Arnhemland, Northern Australia, both loan guns were chambered in .375 and I witnessed clients take over 40 buffalo and numerous Scrub bulls with those rifles.

    When not physically guiding hunters, in between hunts, at the beginning of my season, and at the very end, I kept a entire community of some 200 people constantly fed with protein taken from Scrub bulls hunted whilst on my own in very remote locations with no back-up and no safety net.
    Most of the scrub bulls I took over a ten year period, averaging 15 - 20 or more per year, were taken with a .375
    I also took numerous sick, injured and cull buff at the end of each season, again on my own with no back-up, comfortably with very few "incidents" with a .375.

    Ironically, today there is no .375 in my cabinet, the first time in over thirty years but in my humble opinion the .375 remains as one of, if not THE, most useful, versatile and effective medium to large game calibre ever to be designed.

    Not my first choice for dedicated buff hunting and definitely not my first choice for backing up clients, but none-the-less a stunning performer when used appropriately.
     
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  2. ldmay375

    ldmay375 AH Senior Member

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    I like the 375 H&H. It is a great cartridge with great history and fame. It has fathered a slew of great cartridges in various calibers. It has been around since 1912, and its performance improved with age. Something few can say.
    For these reasons I concur, it is King.
    But, for my use in Alaska, I prefer the 375 Ruger. I have more H&H's in the safe, but the Rugers are used significantly more. Out of the barrel performance is basically the same. But the Ruger version is housed in the exact same action as 416 Ruger, 338 Win, 300 Winchester, and 7mm Remington.
    I could say most of my 375 H&H's are housed in the exact same action as My 300 Wby and 416 Remington. But, I use the 416 Ruger way more than the 416 Rem. And the 300 Wby is really a "just because" rifle, because it is in a M70.
    I concede that the 375 H&H cartridge also wins the crown via looks.
     
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  3. Max Simmons

    Max Simmons AH Member

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    I have 30rds of it if you're interested.

    FWIW, I know of at least one pre-64 Model 70 in .375 that had its barrel shot out. A local dentist inherited it from his father, and both traveled the world hunting everything with that rifle. He didn't keep a round count but guessed it at over 10,000.

    IMG_9109.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2019
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  4. TOBY458

    TOBY458 AH Elite

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    I'm about ready to clean the dust off of my ole 375 and head back! How about you?
     
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  5. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    Hello Hoss Delgado.

    I did not look at this post when it was originated, but I see that you quoted me re. occasional 7 shot capacity of the ZKK 602 .375 H&H, and our good friend IvW found an issue with that...

    Rest assured that the explanation I gave (the one you quoted) is the correct one ... as corroborated by Milan's example:
    The point IvW misses in his remark:
    ...is that the floor plates that are inletted into the stock a little less (NOT a little further as IvW seems to think) provide just a little more depth to the magazine. Those who own ZKK 602 or CZ 550 are sure to have noted that very often the floor plate (and cross bolts, if present) on these, are inletted below the surface of the wood. Occasionally some are inletted less deep or flush with the surface of the wood, and in consequence their magazine is just a little deeper.

    Again, Milan's two posts illustrate exactly what I was saying:
    • some ZKK 602 / CZ 550 .375 H&H (like yours) will take and feed 6 + 1.
    • some will take 6 + 1 but will not feed the first round off the mag (the issue as I described it is that for the first round's nose to feed up the ramp its butt needs to have room to be able to tilt down just a bit, which it cannot do if there is no play at all left in the mag.
    • some will actually not take 6 + 1 because the 6th one cannot be depressed enough in the mag to let the bolt be closed over it and chamber the 7th.
    It is all a matter of how deep the floor plate is inletted in the wood. Those floor plates inletted deeper make for a shallower magazine (by approximately 1/16" to 1/8" or ~2 mm). Those floor plates inletted a little less deep add just that extra depth to the magazine to allow the 6th round to be pressed down to clear the bolt, and to tilt nose up/butt down to feed reliably...

    My own CZ 550 .375 H&H will take 6 + 1 but to chamber the 7th I would have to push feed it and snap the extractor over it when I close the bolt (bad for the extractor!) and the 6th does feed, but it take a strong push. I prefer to load 5 + 1 and to depress the 6 halfway into the mag so that it slides under the extractor when I control feed it in the chamber. It "only" gives me 6 total, but I reckon that it is plenty enough...

    This is all, and very simple. No after market fitment, different spring, different magazine follower, etc...
    By the way, the same applies to ZKK 602 / CZ 550 chambered in .458 (Win or Lott) because these rounds use the same .375 H&H parent cartridge case...

    Another example that "people in the know" are familiar with, is that the CZ 550 in .416 Rigby gains one round capacity (4 +1) when it is stocked with the Bell & Carlson kevlar stock (the one CZ call their Aramid stock). The reason for it is that the synthetic stock is just a little deeper at the magazine well and it lets the action close over the 4th round in the magazine, while the factory wood stock does not allow the bolt to slide over the 4th, therefore making the rifle a 3+1.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019 at 1:08 PM
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  6. Clodo Ferreira

    Clodo Ferreira AH Veteran

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    Hello,

    Great post! I got my .375 H&H in 1992. I bought it from a South African guy's friend. I never met that S.A. guy...I would be delighted to did it! It is a Winchester 70 made in 1954. Well used but not abused, with a clean and bright barrel inside. I fixed the cracks in the stock at the recoil stop and in front of the trigger. I read some comments in articles by Finn Aagaard where he wrote to have not seen any Winchester 70 pre 64 in .375 without those cracks. When I fixed them in mine, I saw the action recoil shoulder did not made contact with the stock recoil stop. So, the cracks were inevitable. Having fix it, the rifle is a true M.O.A. rifle from 100 to 300 meters. Very consistently! I used this rifle as my main Big Red Deer and Wild boar gun since 1993 to 2017. Mostly mountain hunting. Loaded and scoped the weight is around 9 1/5 pounds. A little muzzle heavy but not to much. This W 70 is the best of my rifles in terms of feeding cartridges and extracting-ejecting fired cases. Period. It feeds 4 rounds as if there weren't any rounds !!! And the extraction-ejection is as smooth as it can be! My favorites loads are: Hornady Spire point 270 grs at 2700 f/s; Barnes X (the original ones without any grooves) 250 grs at 2850 f/s, and the Nosler Partition and Accubond 260 grs at also 2850 f/s. Zeroed at 200 meters they are 2,5" up at 100 meters and 25 cm down at 300 meters. I use it alternatively with two scopes in Warne Premier (the first ones from the early '90s with machined steel made by Greg Warne itself) detachable mounts: a Zeiss Diatal ZA 4x32 and a Zeiss Victory 1,5-6x42. Both with reticle 4.
    Long live to the .375 H&H.

    PB180001.JPG PB180003.JPG PB180007.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2019 at 10:09 AM
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  7. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    One has to love a rifle which has a bolt handle polished smooth and bright by years of trusted use!
    Great rifle!
    Awesome, Clodo!
     
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  8. Witold Krzyżanowski

    Witold Krzyżanowski AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Well written Toby.
     
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  9. Witold Krzyżanowski

    Witold Krzyżanowski AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    9,3 x 62 is King for me.
     
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  10. TOBY458

    TOBY458 AH Elite

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    Woah woah woah!!!! I must warn you that those rifles are unsafe to fire! They are way to old to be considered reliable!!! But as your friend and fellow AH member, I will do the right thing and dispose of it for you. Just PM me your address and I'll get a shipping box headed your way! :D:LOL:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2019 at 10:09 AM
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  11. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    This is a true one shot buffalo. No follow up, no insurance shots. One bullet, one buffalo. Caliber .375 mag, distance 140 paced yards. 300gr Hornady solid hand load, rifle Whitworth Express with 2X scope
    111468-0c6b3f404b2518babf6a2254e313e05d.jpg .
    Okanvango Botswana 1990.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2019 at 5:15 AM

  12. Clodo Ferreira

    Clodo Ferreira AH Veteran

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    Hello sestoppelman,

    I like these old Whitworth!! Very well designed and made!

    CF
     
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  13. IvW

    IvW AH Elite

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    I am not a gunsmith and exact terminology may not be present when I try to explain something but here let me try again.

    The magazine floor plate(called the box bottom) is attached to the magazine box frame, which also incorporates the trigger guard and trigger. Properly put together the magazine box body(which is a loose box shaped) is flush with the top of the action and also flush with the magazine box frame.

    If as mentioned the "floor plate" is inletted less deep into the wood, this means the entire magazine box frame which incorporates the trigger guard and trigger will have to be inlet further out. Really?

    The result will be a loose magazine box body as this fits loosely into the stock and is held in position by the the action body on top and the magazine box body at the bottom. If it is inletted further out the trigger will also not be in the correct position in the trigger assembly.

    Furthermore there are a front screw spacer and a rear screw spacer for the two main action screws. These are of such a length that when the action screws are tightened and torqued to the correct settings the action, magazine box body and magazine box frame become one solid piece so to speak.

    As for magazine capacity and proper use thereof, the BRNO ZKK 602 owner manual list the magazine capacity for the 375 H&H as 4 rounds. Yes 4 rounds, is that correct? No.

    All standard original factory BRNO ZKK 602 actioned rifles will take 6 in the magazine(both mine do). You have to push down and carefully push the bolt forward to clear the top round. I had the magazine follower changed on my custom barreled one as the action came from a 458WM which has a slightly different shape. This leaves just enough space to depress the top cartridge and close the bolt on an empty chamber.

    Trying to load round number seven on top of the six in the magazine and then closing the bolt to chamber round seven is a bad idea. It can be done but not advisable. Does that make them 7 shot rifles on this action? Certainly not.

    The only way to do it would be any of the following:
    1. Depress the rounds in the magazine, drop nr 7 on top and close the bolt as per push feed action. Very bad idea as you will at some point in time damage the extractor as you correctly state.
    2. Very carefully stagger the rounds at the back of the magazine(there is enough space in the magazine box unless your hand loads are seated further forward). This will gain you some extra space in the rear of the magazine. With nr 7 on top now and pushed forward, you could force the six in the magazine down to allow the rim to slip under the extractor before chambering. This is awkward and nr 7 needs to be quite far forward to do so.
    3. Have some form of modification on the rifle to increase magazine capacity.

    So yes although the manual states magazine capacity as 4 rounds it comfortably takes 5 and will operate as such when used correctly and is a comfortable 6 shot firearm but it is certainly not a reliable seven shot rifle.

    Load five in the magazine and then when closing with what ever you are tracking you can load and chamber nr. 6. I do not think it would be healthy to always load six as the mag spring will be completely compressed.
     
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  14. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Fanatic

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    Screenshot_20191006-203603_01_01.png
    I seem to have overlooked this excellent thread some how. Indeed , the .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre is the gold standard of rifle cartridges .
    In my career as a professional Shikari in Darjeeling, India from 1962 to 1970 , over 75 % of my clients used to bring a rifle calibrated for this beautiful cartridge and no one was ever dissatisfied with it . The others would either bring a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle or a 9.3 millimeter mauser calibre rifle or something else . It was used with great success on the six dangerous animals legally available for Shikar in India at the time :
    Royal Bengal tiger , leopard , Gaur , Asian sloth bear , bush boar and crocodiles . It also ( naturally) worked very well on our Sambhar deer ( which is roughly similar in size to an American " Elk" animal ).
    During our time , the most popular cartridge for this exquisite calibre was the Winchester silver tip cartridge which was the standard for use on Royal Bengal tiger and leopard. They were even used for the first shot on a Gaur ( side ways , through both the lungs ) , and followed by metal envelope 300 grain blunt head cartridges ( again , Winchester was the most popular firm for this ) .
    Today , of course modern cartridges with a more controlled rate of expansion has made metal envelope bullets for bison antiquated.
    What l find most fascinating , is that , from 1972 to 2019 , l had no contact whatsoever with the international hunting community until l joined these forums . After l joined these forums , l saw that many things have changed ( most for the better ) . Metal envelope ammunition is replaced by homogeneous metal bullets . Winchester silver tips are sadly no more ( l still have mixed feelings about this one , as l still find them excellent ) . The old English cartridges have pleasantly reappeared again and are as popular , as ever .
    However , the .375 Holland and Holland magnum cartridge is just as revered today , as it was five decades ago . Perhaps even more so , because nowadays the munitions for this beautiful cartridge can be had even heavier than the standard 300 grain ones of our time ( although , most seasoned Shikaris will obviously know that the compromise is that heavier bullets have lesser velocities and so should be used at shorter distances ) .

    The photograph is of my respected client resting with his two rifles : The bolt operation rifle is a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle , built on a French Brevex mechanism . He would use it to dispatch two Royal Bengal tigers . I still consider the Brevex rifle mechanism to be the finest rifle mechanism in existence .
    Long live the king , indeed .

    On a related subject , @IvW is correct about the extractor sustaining damage . I cannot speak of the zkk602 mechanism from personal experience , but l know that original mauser mechanism rifles of my time were designed to feed the cartridges strictly from the magazine . A client who owned a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle built on a mauser mechanism , actually broke the ejector of the rifle in the field , while trying to load a cartridge by trying to get the extracting piece to slip over the rim of an extra cartridge on top ( not loaded through the magazine ) . To be fair the rifle was built on a salvaged military surplus mauser mechanism ( which may not have been the finest example of it's class. ) and the client had done this for two previous Shikar seasons without any problems , but it did eventually break the ejector of the gun . The poor client went back to Oklahoma ( his home land ) without securing that Gaur .
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019 at 12:09 PM
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  15. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Also appears to be a fine old Model 71 Winchester .348 in the pic. A deluxe model at that! Were such rifles common there at that time?
     
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  16. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Fanatic

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    Sestoppelman
    Why yes . A foreign Shikari client could bring two fire arms and 250 cartridges into India at our time ( with the first one hundred cartridges being duty free ) .
    Our client pictured brought an under lever rifle calibrated for the .348 Winchester cartridge and the aforementioned .375 Holland and Holland magnum Brevex mechanism rifle . He used the .348 bore rifle to shoot one Nilgai .
    If you are interested in reading an account of this Shikar , please read my article here " Three Royal Bengal tigers in one day ". I posted the account a month ago .
     
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  17. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    My dad was always a huge fan of the 71 and owned lots of them over the years. I have had a couple myself.
    Interesting rifle/caliber combination. The .348 was not chambered commercially in any other rifle and the Model 71 not chambered by Win in any other caliber, though it has been wildcatted by numerous enthusiasts over the years, the .450 Alaskan conversion being probably the best known.
     
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  18. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Fanatic

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    I see an interesting phenomenon on these forums . Under lever rifles are not thought of , these days as hunting rifles for Africa by many members here. Yet , they were quite common in our time .
    Screenshot_20191002-203359_01_01_01.png
    Here is my coolie , Rishi with another one brought by one more client. It was made by the firm , Savage calibrated for the .243 Winchester cartridge ( an excellent cartridge for shooting mouse deer ) . It is peculiar in the sense that it did not have the under-tube type magazine present on most under lever rifles ( like the .30-30 calibre rifles made by Winchester ) .
     

  19. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    This is not what you initially said IvW. When Hoss Delgado said he could have 6 in the magazine + 1 in the chamber you stated:
    You are now repeating, in substance, exactly what I was saying, IvW:
    Good! I guess that we all agree that Hoss Delgado, Milan and myself are correct: factory ZKK 602 / CZ 550 .375 H&H (and .458 Win / Lott) can indeed take 6 in the magazine without modification :)


    Regarding the inletting explanation, I will give it one last try:
    This grainy pic from a CZ 550 in Gunbroker shows a classic characteristic of some ZKK 602/CZ 550. The stock is a little too beefy and it is easy to see that both crossbolt and bottom metal / floor plate are inletted below the wood surface. This is the variable Milan and I were discussing.
    I doubt very much that in most ZKK 602 / CZ 550 the depth of the magazine is actually controlled by the bottom metal resting on the two steel pillars ("tubes", "sleeves", "spacers") through which the rear and front action screws are inserted. That is the way it should be, but that is not the way it necessarily is. In many ZK 602 / CZ 550 the bottom metal is likely NOT touching the two pillars and the depth of the magazine is actually determined by the thickness of the stock, hence the small variations of magazine depth I was mentioning which make it possible, or not, to close the bolt on #7 (still a bad idea to push feed it and snap the claw extractor over it!) and/or to feed #6 from the magazine.
    We are not saying that it is right, we are just saying that it simply is :whistle:
    I hope this helps ;)

    upload_2019-11-17_11-57-8.png
    Anyway, let us appreciate that Hoss Delgado's and Milan's information was accurate and move on with the grand old .375 H&H :S Topic:
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019 at 1:37 PM
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  20. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Yes, the 99's were magazine fed, dad was a fan of them also. I took a late model 1895 Winchester in .405 Win ( also magazine fed ) to RSA a few years back and a few other members have as well.
     
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