Rhodesia

[Scott CWO]

But, indeed those "empires were not forward thinking or did not exist when the Dutch/British" arrived. Perhaps with your understanding of anthropology and history of Africa you could explain how Dutch settlers arriving on the South African coast at the Cape of Good Hope in 1652 and the British in 1820 managed to cause the abandonment of Great Zimbabwe and collapse of the Shona empire in the mid fifteenth century.

No one will argue that communities with cultural identities did not exist in Africa during the time of Arab (which preceded the Europeans by hundreds of years) and European colonial intervention was taking place. But south of the Sahara, there was no culture remotely as sophisticated as the Pre-Columbian empires of Central and South America. Nor was Africa south of the Sahara something of a natural paradise where humans enjoyed some sort of Eden like existence. The Zulu, and its militaristic culture, were as brutal a conqueror as the Huns. Shaka kaSenzangakhona could have shown Genghis Khan a few things about punishment and the treatment of conquered peoples that whole impaling. Most actual historians of the Zulu credit Shaka's reign and wars of conquest alone with the deaths of at least two-million indigenous people.

It would take a finer appreciation of cultural destruction than mine to determine whether the bare foot of Shaka or the bootheel of a German or British soldier would feel better to the neck of a Ndwandwe or Xhosa. It would also take a far more sympathetic appreciation of comparative cultures to believe being in one where disobedience meant being left on a sharpened stake in my anus to slowly die or being marched up a pyramid to have my heart cut out was somehow superior to life as a businessman or even laborer in Johannesburg or Mexico City.

Like even the truly sophisticated Central and South American cultures, none survive the arrival of more militarily powerful, socially organized, or technologically advanced cultures. That happened within those geographic regions such as the conquests by the Aztec or Zulu or Celts - and when those cultures encountered more powerful exterior powers such as Spain, Britain, Saxons, or Rome. Every human on this planet, and the advances human civilization have made, are products of such waves of conquest and migration.

Such historical norms are neither good nor bad. They simply are.

Bravo!

Thanks for this. It wasn’t ignored by him. He simply cannot compete. Guilty-feeling liberal minds are exploding and hopefully doubting their self-hatred for the first time in their miserable lives! Perhaps it will help them but I’m not sure if I care if it helps them? I am undecided.

 

[Sideshow]

But, indeed those "empires were not forward thinking or did not exist when the Dutch/British" arrived. Perhaps with your understanding of anthropology and history of Africa you could explain how Dutch settlers arriving on the South African coast at the Cape of Good Hope in 1652 and the British in 1820 managed to cause the abandonment of Great Zimbabwe and collapse of the Shona empire in the mid fifteenth century.

No one will argue that communities with cultural identities did not exist in Africa during the time of Arab (which preceded the Europeans by hundreds of years) and European colonial intervention was taking place. But south of the Sahara, there was no culture remotely as sophisticated as the Pre-Columbian empires of Central and South America. Nor was Africa south of the Sahara something of a natural paradise where humans enjoyed some sort of Eden like existence. The Zulu, and its militaristic culture, were as brutal a conqueror as the Huns. Shaka kaSenzangakhona could have shown Genghis Khan a few things about punishment and the treatment of conquered peoples that whole impaling. Most actual historians of the Zulu credit Shaka's reign and wars of conquest alone with the deaths of at least two-million indigenous people.

It would take a finer appreciation of cultural destruction than mine to determine whether the bare foot of Shaka or the bootheel of a German or British soldier would feel better to the neck of a Ndwandwe or Xhosa. It would also take a far more sympathetic appreciation of comparative cultures to believe being in one where disobedience meant being left on a sharpened stake in my anus to slowly die or being marched up a pyramid to have my heart cut out was somehow superior to life as a businessman or even laborer in Johannesburg or Mexico City.

Like even the truly sophisticated Central and South American cultures, none survive the arrival of more militarily powerful, socially organized, or technologically advanced cultures. That happened within those geographic regions such as the conquests by the Aztec or Zulu or Celts - and when those cultures encountered more powerful exterior powers such as Spain, Britain, Saxons, or Rome. Every human on this planet, and the advances human civilization have made, are products of such waves of conquest and migration.

Such historical norms are neither good nor bad. They simply are.

Yes that’s quite accurate. On a side note they still have no idea what the exact cause was of the collapse of the culture at the Great Zim ruins. Some cultures just up and go and they leave no record of why or if they do the next one gets rid of it for whatever reasons and there are many. You just need to see what Paul pot did in Cambodia and Isis have done in Syria.

 

[Lancaster]

Related to hunting/parks and the bush wars I've read and enjoyed:

'Shadows in an African Twighlight by Kevin Thomas who went on to be a PH

Ron Thompson's 'Game Rangers at War' about his time as a reservist with a specialist tracking unit

Brian Jackson who went on to work for SanParks served in the Bush Wars. He wrote of some of his experiences in 'Hot and Cold, Memoirs of Rhodesian SAS solider.'
Brian spent a fair bit of time in and around the Dande safari area in the Zambezi valley that I hunted with Charlton McCallum last year. It's in the extreme far North East of Zim so the closest place they could hit into Zambia and Mozambique. I was with my friend @SRvet who, with his PH found an old artillery shell casing on an escarpment whilst tracking

 

[Lancaster]

My late mother in law was Zambian Bemba from a prominent family. She told me that the British did not treat the native Zambians very well.

Humans are aggressive. History shows people, tribes, and countries taking from each other from Cain and Able to the present day.

Many also fear those different so they claim superiority over them so they may feel good about themselves.

As an aside, have you read The Africa House by Stewart Gore-Browne? He built a huge house called Shiwa and lived among the Bemba and championed their rights (although he was far from perfect in his treatment of his staff.)

My grandfather kept a very detailed game book cataloguing hunting across the British Empire (as was) over 65 years. He hunted at Shiwa in the 1950s (when he was living back in Uganda) and hence I bought the book

 

[VertigoBE]

Current reading material, when on holiday

 

[Red Leg]

I have written about this once before, but this is a good place to recall an equally brutal adjacent conflict took place in what is now northern Namibia and Angola. Starting in 1966 and running until 1990, it was a longer and more complex war than the Rhodesian conflict. It also saw far more direct Soviet Proxy involvement, as conventional Cuban troops participated along with Russians in their advisory capacity. The fighting within Angola continued as a civil war until 2002.

One common narrative to the two wars was the successful Soviet propaganda effort that cast the conflicts as white verses black, successfully ignoring the facts on the ground where the South African backed UNITA movement was native Angolan. Like Rhodesia, initial US and British support, however tepid, eventually collapsed under this racial narrative. For the South Africans and their UNITA allies the end of support forced a South African withdrawal from Angola when on the verge of defeating the MPLA and its Cuban/Soviet sponsors.

One of the most famous units of that campaign was the South African led 32 Battalion known by the MPLA, FAPLA. and SWAPO guerilla forces in Namibia as "Os Terríveis" the Terrible Ones or the "Buffalo Soldiers" for their implacable ferocity. Normally a battle group of Brigade strength, its was composed of anti-Marxist Angolans and some Portuguese officered by South Africans. The unit's founder, creator of its operational tactics, and first commanding officer was Colonel Jan Breytenbach.

Fifteen years ago, I was hunting in the Caprivi, and my young PH was also with the Namibian Park Service. He was something of a frustrated soldier where realistically a military career was essentially closed to him in the Namibian armed forces, such as they are, because he was white. He was fascinated with my career, and asked if I would like to take a day off from hunting to visit the remains of Buffalo Camp which had been the home base of 32 Battalion. I naturally jumped at the opportunity.

I have rarely seen such a forlorn ruin. Breytenbach's name can still be read on the remains of the entrance gate.

The cemetery was the saddest. Here, the Namibian government it delighted to have the graves returning to the bush. No names were placed on the headstones - only numbers - so as to prevent reprisals against families in Angola.

The barracks areas are now just foundations, long stripped of every usable piece of wood. The shells of the more substantially built headquarters condonement area has survived better.

The remains of the hospital operating theater were particularly poignant. There souls could be felt.

I suppose it is theoretically possible in some future place or parallel universe that a Namibian or Zimbabwean government may be created that acknowledges and protects the resting places of all those who sacrificed so much on all sides during those long conflicts. Sadly, if my own country's recent efforts to erase the Confederacy from the nation's memory is any indicator, I suspect the ghosts of 32 will continue to walk an ever encroaching wilderness alone.

 

[Mountainshadows]

There were a lot of the surviving Rhodesian soldiers that went on to join the South African army to fight in Angola with many of them joining 32 Battalion. A number of the foreign soldiers joined too.

 

[sgt_zim]

I am describing what was in Rhodesia when europeans arrived. Rather than the claims in the OP that it was a sparsely populated empty land waiting for occupants. Which was inaccurate.

We can stipulate there was a kingdom of some sort in Rhodesia. But those sorts were the exceptions, as I've now twice mentioned.

Africa is rich in natural resources. That is without question. What is also without question is that even the "advanced" civilization in Rhodesia at that time wasn't aware of them. Perhaps they would have eventually discovered the utility of those abundant natural resources, but they were already several centuries behind Europe. I assert the same thing about SW Asia. Without Standard Oil, it's still just a land of Bedouins, trading in camels, goats, sheep, and asses.

 

[RLD]

We can stipulate there was a kingdom of some sort in Rhodesia. But those sorts were the exceptions, as I've now twice mentioned.

Africa is rich in natural resources. That is without question. What is also without question is that even the "advanced" civilization in Rhodesia at that time wasn't aware of them. Perhaps they would have eventually discovered the utility of those abundant natural resources, but they were already several centuries behind Europe. I assert the same thing about SW Asia. Without Standard Oil, it's still just a land of Bedouins, trading in camels, goats, sheep, and asses.

Africa is rich is natural resources accessible to advanced technologies. They do not have the same critical surface deposits of coal and iron that europe has. Nor do they have naturally domesitical animals the same as much of the rest of the world.

Glad to see you recognize Rhodesia was not just a sparsely populated place the OP's article misleadingly suggested it was.

If you think the history of SW Asia which includes some of the oldest civilizations known to man was just a land of Bedouins, then you are getting your history from Stormfront or some such.

 

[Scott CWO]

Africa is rich is natural resources accessible to advanced technologies. They do not have the same critical surface deposits of coal and iron that europe has. Nor do they have naturally domesitical animals the same as much of the rest of the world.

Glad to see you recognize Rhodesia was not just a sparsely populated place the OP's article misleadingly suggested it was.

If you think the history of SW Asia which includes some of the oldest civilizations known to man was just a land of Bedouins, then you are getting your history from Stormfront or some such.

Or perhaps you have heard the theory that being surrounded by the wealth of resources provided by megafauna and megaflora and the lack of several freezing cold months each winter allowed a more laid back approach to life in Sub-Saharan Africa? Plenty of food and no reason to plan ahead much or prepare for winter? Everything mentioned on this thread and subject are just theories. I wasn’t there, you weren’t there and neither were the authors or professors.

@Red Leg laid out some history for us. To the victor go the spoils. In a similar but different vein, I grew up in the Black Hills of South Dakota. A liberal Senator from NJ, Bill Bradley, authored a Senate Bill to return the land to the Lakota Sioux in the 1980s. Never mind that:

• Newark, NJ(1666): The Puritans from Connecticut supposedly bought land for the future Newark from the Lenape for goods valued at about $750, including guns, coats, beer, and other items, which settlers later recognized as an incredible bargain.
• Bergen County, NJ (c. 1700): A deed shows Hackensack Indians received "divers good causes and several kindnesses" and "sundry goods and wares" (valued at 120 Pounds) for land in modern Mahwah, Oakland, and Franklin Lakes.
• In the Dakotas, we found it interesting that Senator Bradley didn’t offer up land in New Jersey to local tribes there.

Also never mind that before the Lakota Sioux moved westward from what we now know as Minnesota that the Black Hills were previously claimed and occupied by the Arikara, Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa, Arapaho and Pawnee. White liberal guilt knows no bounds, despite facts.

 

[Russ16]

One interesting thing I read recently was a discussion of African coastline. Basically there are very few protected shallow water harbors outside of the Mediterranean coast line. So despite having a massive coastline it was very difficult for most of Africa to develop sea borne trade. That trade is critical to the early exchange of information and technology.

Obviously there was some but not on the scale that some other cultures were able to engage in.

I thought it was an interesting point that I hadn’t heard or thought of before.

 

[Wheels]

Yes that’s quite accurate. On a side note they still have no idea what the exact cause was of the collapse of the culture at the Great Zim ruins. Some cultures just up and go and they leave no record of why or if they do the next one gets rid of it for whatever reasons and there are many. You just need to see what Paul pot did in Cambodia and Isis have done in Syria.

A Zim PH made a poignant statement to me once.

People used to come to Rhodesia to see the ruins of Great Zimbabwe.

Now they come to Zimbabwe to see the ruins of Great Rhodesia.

 

[Wheels]

One interesting thing I read recently was a discussion of African coastline. Basically there are very few protected shallow water harbors outside of the Mediterranean coast line. So despite having a massive coastline it was very difficult for most of Africa to develop sea borne trade. That trade is critical to the early exchange of information and technology.

Obviously there was some but not on the scale that some other cultures were able to engage in.

I thought it was an interesting point that I hadn’t heard or thought of before.

Very true. Another geographical issue Africa has is The lack of navigable rivers beyond 50 miles from the ocean. The Nile, Congo and Niger were the only ones really exploited. With the Nile being the only one prior to Colonization.

 

[RLD]

Or perhaps you have heard the theory that being surrounded by the wealth of resources provided by megafauna and megaflora and the lack of several freezing cold months each winter allowed a more laid back approach to life in Sub-Saharan Africa? Plenty of food and no reason to plan ahead much or prepare for winter? Everything mentioned on this thread and subject are just theories. I wasn’t there, you weren’t there and neither were the authors or professors.

@Red Leg laid out some history for us. To the victor go the spoils. In a similar but different vein, I grew up in the Black Hills of South Dakota. A liberal Senator from NJ, Bill Bradley, authored a Senate Bill to return the land to the Lakota Sioux in the 1980s. Never mind that:

• Newark, NJ(1666): The Puritans from Connecticut supposedly bought land for the future Newark from the Lenape for goods valued at about $750, including guns, coats, beer, and other items, which settlers later recognized as an incredible bargain.
• Bergen County, NJ (c. 1700): A deed shows Hackensack Indians received "divers good causes and several kindnesses" and "sundry goods and wares" (valued at 120 Pounds) for land in modern Mahwah, Oakland, and Franklin Lakes.
• In the Dakotas, we found it interesting that Senator Bradley didn’t offer up land in New Jersey to local tribes there.

Also never mind that before the Lakota Sioux moved westward from what we now know as Minnesota that the Black Hills were previously claimed and occupied by the Arikara, Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa, Arapaho and Pawnee. White liberal guilt knows no bounds, despite facts.

You'll have to forgive me for putting more faith in the people who study the field over the people who claim that SW asia was just a bunch of bedouin trading goats, or people who falsely claim Rhodesia was uninhabited. One is entitled to one's own opinions, one is not entitled to one's own facts.

What any of this has to do with white liberal guilt is beyond me. I guess it is just some automatic reflex argument certain folks fall into when a tough topic comes up. Either Rhodesia was occupied before Cecil showed up or it wasn't. Either SW Asia contained significantly complex cultures (like you. know Persians, Assyrians, Babelonions etc) or it was just a bunch of bedoin. Factual stuff. The basis for honest dialogue.

 

[Wheels]

Africa has no large native domesticable beasts of burden. Like the horse or ox. Kind of an issue.

Zebras donkeys and cows have lived in Africa for thousands of years. They have all been domesticated. Throwing out statements like this only diminishes your argument.

 

[bashaw]

Lou Hallamore was a big part of this. I thoroughly enjoyed our discussions on my last two safaris. My take away were similar to our Vietnam, they won all the battles but lost the war. Also it was embarrassing to see England and the US completely abandon them…shameful to me

 

[bashaw]

Lou Hallamore was a big part of this. I thoroughly enjoyed our discussions on my last two safaris. My take away were similar to our Vietnam, they won all the battles but lost the war. Also it was embarrassing to see England and the US completely abandon them…shameful to me

I met Anthony White "Ant" and his wife are very nice people and generous to the community. Ant definitely a legend in special Forces "Selous Scouts". I read a Handful of Hard Men and We Dared to Win, both about the Bush war, like you said it made me sick to my stomach that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher let the outcome happen. The lying Press had everybody fooled back then, but the Communist got the outcome they wanted and the citizens of Rhodesia ended up being a 3rd world country. We can't let that happen here, the USA is the last hope of Freedom. God Bless America and President Donald Trump.

 

[bashaw]

I believe Smith was aware of their system’s downfalls. They needed to be landowners to vote as an example wasn’t probably the best idea (however the small portion of Atilla the Hun in me agrees just a little with that). At any rate, they were working on it. It’s too bad they didn’t get any backup to make it better.

I think that would solve a lot of problems in the USA, if people that owned Real property were the only ones allowed vote, they are usually the ones paying the bills for the freeloaders.

 

[Scott CWO]

You'll have to forgive me for putting more faith in the people who study the field over the people who claim that SW asia was just a bunch of bedouin trading goats, or people who falsely claim Rhodesia was uninhabited. One is entitled to one's own opinions, one is not entitled to one's own facts. What any of this has to do with white liberal guilt is beyond me. I guess it is just some automatic reflex argument certain folks fall into when a tough topic comes up. Either Rhodesia was occupied before Cecil showed up or it wasn't. Either SW Asia contained significantly complex cultures (like you. know Persians, Assyrians, Babelonions etc) or it was just a bunch of bedoin. Factual stuff. The basis for honest

I agree Rhodesia was previously occupied.

It’s no mystery that at the time of colonization, most of Sub-Saharan Africa was “governed” by tribal cultures, which limited them in a conflict with a more technologically advanced foe. Surely we agree on this point.

 

[Flbt]

I think that would solve a lot of problems in the USA, if people that owned Real property were the only ones allowed vote, they are usually the ones paying the bills for the freeloaders.

I think that went out the window in 1866