Politics

[Brent in Az]

Recently released video by Judicial watch with plenty of credible info that contradicts what the Feds had to say about it

 

[Brent in Az]

What actual evidence other than tin foil capped "influencers" pushing their on line videos make these claims and with what actual evidence? These are the same people who claim the moon landing didn't happen (all six !?!), the CIA, Mossad, pick your agency blew up the Twin Towers, there was no airplane at the pentagon (I was there if you want to discuss that one), and Charlie Kirk's wife had him killed so she could take over TPUSA.

This breathless nonsense from Fitton and believe anything conspiratorial sources like Breitbart and its ilk simply encourages the gullible.

But let's see - a plane crashes off the coast and a terrorist group tries to claim credit at a time when militant Islam was in its ascendancy Wow, they would never do that without good reason. Must be true. Perhaps they co-opted the crew of an American warship to take it down for them?

But why not. After all, there was that North American blackout of 2003 that left nearly 60 million people without power and for which Al-Qaeda claimed credit. Must be true because they claimed it. Couldn't be due to the software failure discovered by a joint US Canadian investigation. Here in Texas we had the 2008 Texas City Refinery explosion for which Jihadist forums (sort of like Islamic conspiracy sites) claimed hidden cells were responsible for the "sabotage." There are literally dozens of incidents where various groups attempt to take credit for disasters. Any wonder the FBI awaits some sort of actual evidence before going off halfcocked. With the gullibility of their audiences, would that Breitbart and Fitton exercised some small amount of similar caution.

Tell us your an Apparatchik, without actually telling us .....

 

[Red Leg]

Recently released video by Judicial watch with plenty of credible info that contradicts what the Feds had to say about it

I saw this piece of conspiratorial propaganda - or at least as much as I could stomach without throwing something at my computer.

First of all, Judicial Watch is a FOIA generator. Other than correctly creating properly worded requests and appropriately filing them, they have zero technical expertise. They specifically have zero experience in crash investigation or forensic metallurgy. Admittedly, they do seem to have skill in highlighting early, sensational investigative leads out of context, and in doing so somehow convince people that this "evidence" outweighs four years of actual forensic research conducted by the NTSB, the US Navy, and independent international aviation bodies.

Not a single credible "whistle blower" or bit of physical material has ever been produced indicating altered components to hide a missile strike.

Yes, there were indeed witnesses who saw a streak in the sky and heard a boom. The explanation for that was resolved early in the investigation as the terrorist attack was ruled out. Two minutes on google will find it - I don't feel like typing.

Yes, early in the investigation sabotage absolutely was under consideration, even deemed likely as internal notes would show. Only in the world on conspiracy theorists is the lack of subsequent evidence deemed proof of a cover-up - a cover-up like the moon landing, 911, etc which would have entailed hundreds , even thousands, of co-conspirators.

Just a little critical thinking would be life changing for so many.

 

[Brent in Az]

Yeah, the feds are fine upstanding people. They would never lie to us, especially during the Clinton administration and election year.....lol.

 

[Red Leg]

Tell us your an Apparatchik, without actually telling us .....

Yeah, the feds are fine upstanding people. They would never lie to us, especially during the Clinton administration and election year.....lol.

It must be a dark and fearful place you occupy. But thank you for the well thought out reply.

 

[fourfive8]

Speaking of grand, right wing, MAGA conspiracy theories… hope everyone reads some of Tony da Fauch’s diary. I hate to say, “Told you so, but told you so!” I wasn’t the only one, many on here also did and were ridiculed or ignored.

 

[Brent in Az]

It must be a dark and fearful place you occupy. But thank you for the well thought out reply.

You're welcome. Thanks for calling those of us who aren't government "Yes men", tinfoil hat wearers. We prefer those vs. the federal blinders.

 

[Brent in Az]

I guess this NTSB investigator who was there is also part of the tinfoil hat club.

 

[Red Leg]

I guess this NTSB investigator who was there is also part of the tinfoil hat club.

I actually believe Hughes held a position based on conviction, but one so strong that it ignored the actual physical evidence. Based on his reputation, the NTSB in 2013 assigned a brand new team, none of whom were involved in the original investigation, to re-evaluate the physical evidence. They concluded that there was no actual evidence of a missile or bomb initiated blast. They also reviewed the radar analysis, quickly finding the flaws in Hughes's claim of multimach debris release. The witnesses did indeed see a streak of light, but what they saw, at a great distance, was the noseless burning fuselage pitching up and climbing following the center tank explosion. Many did indeed report hearing a boom and then saw the streak of light. For those pointing at that evidence which many have, I would only suggest perusing the relative speeds of light and sound and think about it for a bit.

Of course to the conspiracy minded, the new review and lack of evidence substantiating Hughes' claims simply proves the government was hiding something. And of course accepting Hughes' disagreement with the findings means every single other investigator, regardless of agency, was in on a conspiracy which they have kept secret (in this country!) for a quarter of a century.

Sure - that is logical.

 

[Brent in Az]

6 former investigators asked for the flight 800 case to be reopened so that they could present their evidence, findings, and witness testimony

They were stonewalled.

Imagine that!

 

[Red Leg]

6 former investigators asked for the flight 800 case to be reopened so that they could present their evidence, findings, and witness testimony

They were stonewalled.

Imagine that!

Six out of over a thousand. Their petition was filed in Jun of 2013. The review of the original investigation concluded in July 2014. They had reexamined the original NTSB findings and the issues submitted by the 6/7 contesting the findings. There was no new evidence presented and NTSB provided published detailed analysis and reasoning for rejection of their petition. Not exactly stonewalling or evidence of a star chamber, but clearly evidence of a conspiracy involving hundreds of guilty government and private industry representatives sworn to secrecy..

 

[Scott CWO]

Iran has a terrible regime that committs crimes internally and externally all the time. I, and all of my Iranian employees, would be more than happy to see that regime change for the better. Like now.

But I don't think committing what we now all consider war crimes is the way to go about it.

While I am not sure what exactly was the reasoning for the current war to get started, I would say that so far the U.S. military and the politicians behind it, are fighting it the way a modern war by a democracy should be fought. They have been focussed on military targets, they have worked hard to minimize their own casualties and civilian casualties as well. To date, as far as I can see, the United States has fought this war scrupulously in accord with the law of war. For instance they put the blockade in place literally in absolute, letter perfect compliance with international law. That is how it should be done.

I don't think that the mass killing of civilians, like happened at Hiroshima, is the way to go forward.

And don't take that as a critique of the use of a nuclear weapon at Hiroshima. There is debate around that but I am firmly on the side that is was legal, ethical and moral when it was carried out. You cannot judge an action ahistorically.

But since then, the world, and international law has changed. The Fourth Geneva Convention and other statutes would now suggest targeting of a civilians is a war crime. I don't see that as the way for democracies to advance their objectives.

How are objectives advanced when dealing with people that support the

Iran has a terrible regime that committs crimes internally and externally all the time. I, and all of my Iranian employees, would be more than happy to see that regime change for the better. Like now.

But I don't think committing what we now all consider war crimes is the way to go about it.

While I am not sure what exactly was the reasoning for the current war to get started, I would say that so far the U.S. military and the politicians behind it, are fighting it the way a modern war by a democracy should be fought. They have been focussed on military targets, they have worked hard to minimize their own casualties and civilian casualties as well. To date, as far as I can see, the United States has fought this war scrupulously in accord with the law of war. For instance they put the blockade in place literally in absolute, letter perfect compliance with international law. That is how it should be done.

I don't think that the mass killing of civilians, like happened at Hiroshima, is the way to go forward.

And don't take that as a critique of the use of a nuclear weapon at Hiroshima. There is debate around that but I am firmly on the side that is was legal, ethical and moral when it was carried out. You cannot judge an action ahistorically.

But since then, the world, and international law has changed. The Fourth Geneva Convention and other statutes would now suggest targeting of a civilians is a war crime. I don't see that as the way for democracies to advance their objectives.

Unfortunately, while "international law" (whatever that is?) may have changed, the savages of the world have not changed and the only way they learn is by paying a price. Just eliminating military targets does not do much to change the hearts and minds of the extremists and citizens. A perfect example is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization that later became political and the people of Gaza voted for Hamas candidates and policies. The people of Gaza are now Hamas. They are not innocent civilians without blood on their hands. They absolutely needed to pay a price. To what degree may be debated, but a price, nonetheless.

Much the same can be said for a large part of the population of Iran. The mullahs and the IRGC are not without support. Perhaps we can keep Iran in a box and just degrade their nuclear program from time to time but this Strait of Hormuz situation is a problem for which a price must be paid.

 

[Scott CWO]

The majority of the American population was born after 1974 (~71%). To most of us Iran has always been a terror state and an enemy nation and the Grand Ayatollah is synonymous with the Iranian state. It would take a pretty significant shift to change that perspective. Probably a complete restructuring of the nation.

We very well may have missed the chance to cause the fall of the mullahs and IRGC when the start of the "war" was delayed until after the Iranian citizen uprising.

 

[Scott CWO]

Yeah it would be Iraq x 100. You would have 1000's, if not 100,000's of foreign fighters pouring in. With the way information is distributed now, word would spread in minutes of a body of US forces in country.

The only hope we really have is tier 1 elements combined with some limited traditional forces and support to do a quick in and out. Steal their enriched nuclear material, take out specific heads of state, or something to that effect.

Once again, this just kicks the can down the road.

The nuclear material is under rubble. It is not something that anyone can take out without excavation and the cooperation of Iran, short of a huge ground war to take over the country.

 

[Scott CWO]

I actually believe Hughes held a position based on conviction, but one so strong that it ignored the actual physical evidence. Based on his reputation, the NTSB in 2013 assigned a brand new team, none of whom were involved in the original investigation, to re-evaluate the physical evidence. They concluded that there was no actual evidence of a missile or bomb initiated blast. They also reviewed the radar analysis, quickly finding the flaws in Hughes's claim of multimach debris release. The witnesses did indeed see a streak of light, but what they saw, at a great distance, was the noseless burning fuselage pitching up and climbing following the center tank explosion. Many did indeed report hearing a boom and then saw the streak of light. For those pointing at that evidence which many have, I would only suggest perusing the relative speeds of light and sound and think about it for a bit.

Of course to the conspiracy minded, the new review and lack of evidence substantiating Hughes' claims simply proves the government was hiding something. And of course accepting Hughes' disagreement with the findings means every single other investigator, regardless of agency, was in on a conspiracy which they have kept secret (in this country!) for a quarter of a century.

Sure - that is logical.

Yes, the speed of light and sound. @Brent in Az ever see an animal drop and then hear the boom? Witnessed it hundreds of times watching my guides with hunters on stalks while I was much farther away. Same thing with this plane.

 

[rookhawk]

I was thinking about the Iran problem quite a bit and I’ve spoken with many Persians (great people and great Americans).

The Persians have lost faith that we’ll save them, so there is no defiance left in the populous to create insurrection and ultimately regime change.

The only way to change that fact is to have a very asymmetric form of warfare that requires the CIA and Mossad to run the show. It goes like this: Meet Ahmed, he was a civilian crane operator in Tehran and he operated the cranes that hung a thousand non-violent protesters. Ahmed photo on screen with a bullet through it. Meet Sgt. Hafez, he ran the precinct where teenage girls that didn’t wear their hijabs were raped and murdered. Show picture of Sgt. Hafez dead from a car bomb. Rinse-repeat this as our own form of terrorism. Do not let the regime sleep at night. Instill defiance in the people that really bad things are happening to bad people, now is the time to retake their own country.

The problem with the above is its very dangerous work and its very expensive work. And to make it a PR campaign, it’s especially dangerous for sources and agents working inside of Iran. Hundreds of agents will probably die to accomplish the task that would take 6-24 months assuming we work with Mossad and have the very best intelligence on the ground.

But that’s the best way to achieve the outcome. A land war is not going to work. We suck at nation building. We also suck at occupying. We also suck at open-ended military campaigns. Our military is excellent at blowing things up better than any nation on earth, but a war to topple a terrorist state requires the three letter agencies, not the US military at the tip of the spear.

 

[Altitude sickness]

6 former investigators asked for the flight 800 case to be reopened so that they could present their evidence, findings, and witness testimony

They were stonewalled.

Imagine that!

The NTSB employees are experts in transportation investigations. But I would like to ask Hughes how many craft has he inspected or investigated that were shot out of the sky by hand held missile platforms as he proposes. I’m sure that number is zero.

Remember that the missile story started immediately. So every question by media and civilians were biased that way.

The FBI is always involved if civilians are thought to be shot out of the sky. that is not new. And they would always get involved in that scenario.


Each relative military service branch intelligence and investigative branch would also be involved if they thought a rocket shot a civilian plane out of the air in their area of expertise.

I clearly remember all the stories about a missile strike. So immediately tried to contact several people on that operation to get the scoop. ( Anyone left out of a big operation like that is a busy body and feels left out and experience a huge FOMO feeling. I was not attached to such a team at the time and felt left out.

The people I tried to reach were heavily sequestered from the media. And as always were told to keep their mouths shut on the crash subject. So I wasn’t able to get any info until the salvage operation was over. The media blackout is normal.

I will tell you that the people that I asked their opinion about flight 800 have pulled more aircraft from the ocean floor that either crashed, ran out of fuel or were shot down by cannon or missiles than those NTSB investigators combined would see in a career.

So they know what an aircraft looks like when riddled with anti aircraft munitions or a missile flies through the fuselage with or without an explosion. If it penciled through or detonated correctly.

As an operation like this moves forward, focuses of the investigation can change as each piece of information comes in. Hourly and daily. The salvage team would’ve been told OK we need these particular pieces. This is what we’re looking for.

During another famous operation the Challenger salvage eventually turned all focus to finding the solid rocket Oring seal. So of course everybody tries to be objective but everyone also knows the rumors of the missile strike so they would’ve had that front of mind as they pull each important and unimportant piece from the water.

Remember there was also a rumor that a navy ship fired a rocket by mistake. So the
Navy investigators and Intelligence would’ve been directly involved with the divers as they brought each piece up. So the first people to get their grubby mitts on each piece of aircraft were Navy salvage divers. Then most likely Navy investigators next. Then the NTSB.

Also, If it was to cover for Clinton’s election. All the agencies involved are actually biased towards a kinetic response than a cover up. The most logical outcome if it were a terrorist missile would be finding who did it and killing them. not covering it up.

I would think a wag the dog operation would’ve been more likely to help Clinton politically than a cover up would.


Anyway. I stand by the guys I know very well telling me that it was clearly not a missile.

 

[Brent in Az]

The head of the FBI investigation stood in front of the microphone and told the world that they found traces of an explosive substance in the carpet of the airplane.
Not long after that, they came back and said "oops" we were wrong. The plane had been used recently to train bomb sniffing dogs, and it was leftover residue from the training.

That was a good one!

 

[Brent in Az]

Plenty of talking points that certainly could raise red flags over the FBI investigation claims

 

[Brent in Az]

The only role of the CIA in the investigation was PSYOPS, to make the missile talk go away.