Politics

I’m confident that the plans that have been drafted and shelved for decades then dusted off and updated/revised for this war. Include the contingency of infrastructure destruction.

And I’m sure it will not be a complete destruction.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the new leaders wanted a prosperous, thriving Iranian society. And choose to end it.
What you and I, and other sane people would like, is unfortunately not what anyone in a leadership position in Iran would like.

The regime of the Islamic Republic has to be removed.
 
I have worked, lived among and had muslim friends my whole life. My wife lived in Saudi for a number of years. I honestly don't need a two minute youtube video by that chap to help me understand the good and bad of Islam in the world.

However if you are forming your opinion of that billion plus muslims in the world based on videos like that, it explains a fair bit.

I think its worth noting that not all Muslims are the same...

Sorta like all Christians arent MTG...

Individuals are different.. then country cultures are different.. regional cultures (Levant vs GCC vs Asia, etc) are different.. then there are the vast differences in Sunni vs Shia, etc.. etc..

Shitty people are simply shitty people.. and shitty people often use religion as a means of justifying their shitty behaviors.. Good people are simply good people.. and while many will be good people because they believe their religion requires it, the truth is they are good people to begin with (i.e. deeds dont get you salvation in Christianity... but.. Christian faith will lead believers to doing good deeds)..

Ive known some great human beings that happen to be of Muslim faith.. and Ive known some truly horrible human beings that claim Christian faith (but to me clearly arent Christian at all.. they couldnt live the lives they choose to live and actually be a believer)..

But.. by the same token Ive known a lot of truly horrible humans that claim Islam as their faith.. and some great human beings that are Christian..

The challenge with Islam combined with some of the cultures where it is the predominant religion is that its interpretation can indeed be very bad if people are left to their own devices.. For example, I would challenge the typical "Free Palestine" idiot here in the US to actually go to the West Bank or Gaza and have an hour long chat with a handful of Palestinian women (not Hamas or Hezbollah fighters).. ask them what their purpose in life is.. MOST will tell you they were born so that they can birth future martyrs that will see Israel removed from the map..

I have personally witnessed this.. as have others that worked for me in the region (we spent years in Jordan, Israel, and the West Bank and Gaza training Palestinian police and assisting with issues between the US, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority)..

By the same token we shouldnt forget that Jim Jones and David Koresh claimed they were Christian and led groups of people astray...

Evil is everywhere..

It just appears to be concentrated pretty densly in certain sectors of Islam..
 
You should be. Child abuse is terrible.

But one of the things we know about child sexual abuse, is that it is prevalent in all cultures, and even all denominations. It is not a particularly islamic problem.

For instance, in my home province of Ontario, there was a massive child abuse ring in Prescott Ontario, where it was all boring white bread people involved, totally WASP top to bottom.

Or this more recent operation: https://www.ctvnews.ca/northern-ont...ild-sexual-exploitation-ring-39-charges-laid/

All of accused in that last one (so far) are caucasian, and not likely muslim.
You are correct, child sex abuse is in all cultures and is widely condemned in most cultures. The difference SEEMS to me is that some Muslim sects condone it or at a minimum turn a blind eye to it.
 
You are quite right.

But the immigration into England was never "unchecked." It was planned by the British government because they had a labour shortage, needed to rebuild their country after WWII, and had created their own obligations by making many muslim areas part of their empire. It was not like these people were coming from countries that had not been subject to British rule. They were, many of them British subjects, subject to the same Crown I was (am). There was very little "kindness" about the British policy as many people of colour and muslims were not at all well treated when they came to England, through programs designed to attract them.
I have spent most of my professional life being credentialed and in dealing with the Islamic world. I don't begin to claim I have the last word on the subject - but would argue no other Westerner does either.

I have found much to admire in Islamic culture. Cultural generosity can be almost embarrassing. Traditional Islamic arts in their purist form have almost no corollary in the West. You do not have to travel to the Middle East to experience it. Next time you are in Spain spend some time in the Al Hambra in Granada. My Arabic is still good enough to read and appreciate Arabic poetry and particularly Persian poetry translated into Arabic. I have dealt and negotiated with Arab and Pakistani military, political, and business leaders - in Arabic with those who were Arab. I have had Arab neighbors in places like Riyadh and spent extensive time in every Gulf country but Iran and Syria.

So allow me a couple of very general observations made over a lifetime developing them. I hasten to add general observations are just that and often untrue when applied to the specific - but that makes them no less generally true.

Muslims are not just like us. It is naive to believe they could be. Unlike the Irish, or the Chinese, or Africans, Islam itself creates enormous barriers to assimilation in Western Culture.

Our culture, and our understanding of the role of religion in it were shaped by two great interrelated events. The first was the reformation, and the second was the enlightenment. One, once a century and a half of warfare ended, created broad acceptable avenues to observe Christianity. The other threw open the doors of scientific inquiry free from the chains of religious orthodoxy. Finally, both largely destroyed the concept of submission to the will of God to the extent it existed in Christian culture.

As a result, in the contemporary West, one can be a "good Christian" and yet follow a host of acceptable personal mores different from one's neighbors. Those loving ritual have the Catholic and Episcopalian traditions, Calvinists find a home among Presbyterians, those wanting an emotional relationship with God choose evangelical congregations, and many others. All are "good Christians."

Even the Jewish faith experienced a slightly later reform movement. A member of a reform synagogue can enjoy a pulled pork sandwich on the deck with his Methodist neighbor, while his traditional cousin is adhering strictly to the traditions of halakhah and will not anything not prepared in a kosher kitchen. And yet, both can be "good" Jews.

Islam, on the other hand, has never had a reformation or experienced a lasting cultural enlightenment. A Muslim can only be a "good" Muslim by following the traditions of the religion and through submission to the will of God. That does not mean a Muslim can not be secular, but it does mean that it is almost impossible for a secular Muslim to be deemed living as a "good" Muslim by the Imamate.

Some secular Muslims spin the Islamic exception for those whishing to avoid persecution as support for secularism. Traditionally Islam views the world as divided between the "Dar al Harb" and "Dar al Islam." The "World of Islam" is self explanatory. The "World of War or Conflict" is that which Islam is still battling to convert. During that war, Muslims in the area of conflict may adapt local mores to escape persecution. But, that is hardly the basis for a stable secular existence in the West.

Generally, the lower the economic and educational status of a Muslim the more likely he or she is to cling to the stricter traditions of their faith. A sophisticated technocrat from Dubai is very different from a herdsman from Somalia or shopkeeper from Sanaa. It is why refugee enclaves in Detroit, Paris, or Ontario are very different than Italian of Irish neighborhoods the West has experienced with other migrations. I am convinced this lack of a real religious home for the secular Muslim is why so many children of these families become susceptible to radicalization by ISIS and its ilk.

Perhaps those in the West will eventually find a path for assimilation into our culture. I am afraid, however, that will be a long and all to frequently bitter process.
 
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You are correct, child sex abuse is in all cultures and is widely condemned in most cultures. The difference SEEMS to me is that some Muslim sects condone it or at a minimum turn a blind eye to it.
Without trying to sound too judgemental, it strikes me that more primitive cultures have much lower "ages of consent". And many of these Islamic factions are functioning in very poor and not advanced parts of the world. One has to strive, when a group like that sets up a community in your country, is that your police can enforce your key laws on them, and over time they start to culturally evolve in your direction. There are some very good studies showing that 2 nd and 3 rd generation immigrants start to really adopt the local culture. But if you let these folks in, you need both carrot and stick to cause them to adopt the best parts of the dominant culture.
 
I have spent most of my professional life being credentialed and in dealing with the Islamic world. I don't begin to claim I have the last word on the subject - but would argue no other Westerner does either.

I have found much to admire in Islamic culture. Cultural generosity can be almost embarrassing. Traditional Islamic arts in their purist form have almost no corollary in the West. You do not have to travel to the Middle East to experience it. Next time you are in Spain spend some time in the Al Hambra in Granada. My Arabic is still good enough to read and appreciate Arabic poetry and particularly Persian poetry translated into Arabic. I have dealt and negotiated with Arab and Pakistani military, political, and business leaders - in Arabic with those who were Arab. I have had Arab neighbors in places like Riyadh and spent extensive time in every Gulf country but Iran and Syria.

So allow me a couple of very general observations made over a lifetime developing them. I hasten to add general observations are just that and often untrue when applied to the specific - but that makes them no less generally true.

Muslims are not just like us. It is naive to believe they could be. Unlike the Irish, or the Chinese, or Africans, Islam itself creates enormous barriers to assimilation in Western Culture.

Our culture, and our understanding of the role of religion in it were shaped by two great interrelated events. The first was the reformation, and the second was the enlightenment. One, once a century and a half of warfare ended, created broad acceptable avenues to observe Christianity. The other threw open the doors of scientific inquiry free from the chains of religious orthodoxy. Finally, both largely destroyed the concept of submission to the will of God to the extent it existed in Christian culture.

As a result, in the contemporary West, one can be a "good Christian" and yet follow a host of acceptable personal mores different from one's neighbors. Those loving ritual have the Catholic and Episcopalian traditions, Calvinists find a home among Presbyterians, those wanting an emotional relationship with God choose evangelical congregations, and many others. All are "good Christians."

Even the Jewish faith experienced a slightly later reform movement. A member of a reform synagogue can enjoy a pulled pork sandwich on the deck with his Methodist neighbor, while his traditional cousin is adhering strictly to the traditions of halakhah and will not anything not prepared in a kosher kitchen. And yet, both can be "good" Jews.

Islam, on the other hand, has never had a reformation or experienced a lasting cultural enlightenment. A Muslim can only be a "good" Muslim by following the traditions of the religion and through submission to the will of God. That does not mean a Muslim can not be secular, but it does mean that it is almost impossible for a secular Muslim to be deemed living as a "good" Muslim by the Imamate.

Some secular Muslims spin the Islamic exception for those whishing to avoid persecution as support for secularism. Traditionally Islam views the world as divided between the "Dar al Harb" and "Dar al Islam." The "World of Islam" is self explanatory. The "World of War or Conflict" is that which Islam is still battling to convert. During that war, Muslims in the area of conflict may adapt local mores to escape persecution. But, that is hardly the basis for a stable secular existence in the West.

Generally, the lower the economic and educational status of a Muslim the more likely he or she is to cling to the stricter traditions of their faith. A sophisticated technocrat from Dubai is very different from a herdsman from Somalia or shopkeeper from Sanaa. It is why refugee enclaves in Detroit, Paris, or Ontario are very different than Italian of Irish neighborhoods the West has experienced with other migrations. I am convinced this lack of a real religious home for the secular Muslim is why so many children of these families become susceptible to radicalization by ISIS and its ilk.

Perhaps those in the West will eventually find a path for assimilation into our culture. I am afraid, however, that will be a long and all to frequently bitter process.
outstanding and super informative.. thanks for that post..
 
I have worked, lived among and had muslim friends my whole life. My wife lived in Saudi for a number of years. I honestly don't need a two minute youtube video by that chap to help me understand the good and bad of Islam in the world.

However if you are forming your opinion of that billion plus muslims in the world based on videos like that, it explains a fair bit.
That individual use to be World of Warcraft blogger - maybe he should go back to talking about video games.
 
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Without trying to sound too judgemental, it strikes me that more primitive cultures have much lower "ages of consent". And many of these Islamic factions are functioning in very poor and not advanced parts of the world. One has to strive, when a group like that sets up a community in your country, is that your police can enforce your key laws on them, and over time they start to culturally evolve in your direction. There are some very good studies showing that 2 nd and 3 rd generation immigrants start to really adopt the local culture. But if you let these folks in, you need both carrot and stick to cause them to adopt the best parts of the dominant culture.
I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

The real issue is not the "difference". I don't think there's anyone who doesn't understand that eventually, if "police can enforce your key laws on them" people will eventually assimilate.

It is when we do NOT enforce laws, deliberately, out of deference to the 'other' and an unwillingness to offend, that culture evolves the other way. This is what we ware seeing now, in many places including the UK. We are at the point where we are not only enforcing laws and customs, we are actively distorting laws. If you can't see the problem in that, feel free to join three other Quislings on my list.
 
I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

The real issue is not the "difference". I don't think there's anyone who doesn't understand that eventually, if "police can enforce your key laws on them" people will eventually assimilate.

It is when we do NOT enforce laws, deliberately, out of deference to the 'other' and an unwillingness to offend, that culture evolves the other way. This is what we ware seeing now, in many places including the UK. We are at the point where we are not only enforcing laws and customs, we are actively distorting laws. If you can't see the problem in that, feel free to join three other Quislings on my list.
I am not being remotely obtuse. I think the issue is complex and nuanced.

Police should enforce laws. Customs...not so much. Enforcing customs would make the west more like Pakistan, which I would like to avoid. I could care less if they chose to dress differently then me, eat different foods, listen to different music or any of that.

If law enforcement is not doing their job, that is our problem not theirs. I don't know that to be the case in any sort of broad fashion, although their appear to be incidents of it.

I would be willing to bet that over time muslims in the west will assimilate and move closer to our traditional view of the world, as they actually have something to loose. Red Leg thinks there are some big obstacles on that path, but I don't see them as big as he does. He may well be right, only time will tell.

I think the people who are upset at King Charles for wishing his muslim subjects peace during their holidays are unthinking hatemongers and probably racist.

And you are welcome to add me to any list you like Mr. McCarthy. But I am surely not Norwegian.
 
@RLD

“..am not being remotely obtuse. I think the issue is complex and nuanced.

Police should enforce laws. Customs...not so much.”

I don’t believe it’s a complicated as you might wish it were.

We have laws. Obeying them and being a part of a polite society is part of western culture (our customs). Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. Same thing goes for local customs.
 
@RLD

“..am not being remotely obtuse. I think the issue is complex and nuanced.

Police should enforce laws. Customs...not so much.”

I don’t believe it’s a complicated as you might wish it were.

We have laws. Obeying them and being a part of a polite society is part of western culture (our customs). Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. Same thing goes for local customs.
How about customs like honor killings, and female genital mutilation? Slavery perhaps, in its modern more nuanced form? Maybe grooming gangs? Screaming or beating individuals eating during Ramadan? How about customs like Takiya--acceptable lying that is used to advance eventual conquest and overthrow? Sounds like more steps down the yellow brick road to your own cultural suicide. And the left will have the zinc plated gall to pay for it from the public coffer. No thanks.
 
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I have worked, lived among and had muslim friends my whole life. My wife lived in Saudi for a number of years. I honestly don't need a two minute youtube video by that chap to help me understand the good and bad of Islam in the world.

However if you are forming your opinion of that billion plus muslims in the world based on videos like that, it explains a fair bit.
LOL having lived and worked amongst Muslim people my entire life, they will be the first to speak out against radicals.... because fleeing radicals is how most of them came to be in the USA.

I also know the mindset of people who bury their heads in the sand and like to wave the false morality flag of everyone on earth is awesome and I am the white savior of all the poor non-white people beneath me; and the force is strong with you on that one!

Here is a 48 second video clip of the UAE Minister of foreign affairs speaking directly at people such as yourself back in 2017........ It's almost as if he can predict the future based on the mindset of people who would rather posture for inclusivity than admit the reality of the situation.

But then again, I'm sure he's just a xenophobe that will be dismissed as racist......
 
I don’t follow the British Monarchy but I believe many took exception to him addressing Muslims on their Holiday (which I see no problem with, they are British subjects) but he evidently didn’t address Christians on our most Holy of our Holidays (which I do have a problem with him not addressing)
 
I don’t follow the British Monarchy but I believe many took exception to him addressing Muslims on their Holiday (which I see no problem with, they are British subjects) but he evidently didn’t address Christians on our most Holy of our Holidays (which I do have a problem with him not addressing)
This. Exactly this.
 
Some people are so damn open minded that their brains have fallen out

You know who you are. I think? :cool:
 
I don’t follow the British Monarchy but I believe many took exception to him addressing Muslims on their Holiday (which I see no problem with, they are British subjects) but he evidently didn’t address Christians on our most Holy of our Holidays (which I do have a problem with him not addressing)
The British Monarch always makes some comments at Easter and goes to at least two Easter services every year. However the British monarch rarely gives a full address at Easter, as opposed to Christmas when they almost always do. Queen Elizabeth, a devout Anglican, I think gave one Easter address in her 70 year reign.

I don't believe he went to any services for Ramadan this year.

Some folks tried to put those two things together to gin up trouble.

However the Royal Family did issue a short Easter greeting as usual, including a lovely depiction of the calvary cross with the message: "He is Risen!"


For comparison: https://www.facebook.com/Historyand...ing-charles-iii-posted-a-ram/980591724301531/
 
I am not being remotely obtuse. I think the issue is complex and nuanced.

Police should enforce laws. Customs...not so much. Enforcing customs would make the west more like Pakistan, which I would like to avoid. I could care less if they chose to dress differently then me, eat different foods, listen to different music or any of that.

If law enforcement is not doing their job, that is our problem not theirs. I don't know that to be the case in any sort of broad fashion, although their appear to be incidents of it.

I would be willing to bet that over time muslims in the west will assimilate and move closer to our traditional view of the world, as they actually have something to loose. Red Leg thinks there are some big obstacles on that path, but I don't see them as big as he does. He may well be right, only time will tell.

I think the people who are upset at King Charles for wishing his muslim subjects peace during their holidays are unthinking hatemongers and probably racist.

And you are welcome to add me to any list you like Mr. McCarthy. But I am surely not Norwegian.
Well, you can call me McCarthy, but you have to remember the Venona documents pretty much proved he had a point. Certainly, we know for whom Alger Hiss was working, and my Polish colleagues and relatives do not exactly thank Mr. Hiss for his actions in Yalta. But I digress.

As far as "customs... not so much.", I think I'm just going to agree with Lord William Bentinck, and his views on Sati.
 
How about customs like honor killings, and female genital mutilation? Slavery perhaps, in its modern more nuanced form? Maybe grooming gangs? Screaming or beating individuals eating during Ramadan? How about customs like Takiya--acceptable lying that is used to advance eventual conquest and overthrow? Sounds like more steps down the yellow brick road to your own cultural suicide. And the left will have the zinc plated gall to pay for it from the public coffer. No thanks.
Female genital mutilation is a terrible scourge we should be doing everything to eliminate. However it is not a muslim specific problem:

  • Cultural, Not Religious: Many top Muslim religious authorities, including those at Al-Azhar University, have declared that FGM is not a requirement of Islam and have issued fatwas against it.
  • Widespread Across Faiths: FGM is found among Coptic Christians in Egypt, Orthodox Christians in Ethiopia, and Protestants and Catholics in Kenya, Tanzania, and Nigeria.
  • Regional Differences: In some African nations, such as Niger, FGM is more prevalent within Christian communities than among Muslims.
  • Non-Practicing Muslim Regions: FGM is virtually unknown in many major Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, Iran, Algeria, and Morocco, indicating it is not a core religious practice.
And if you don't think Christian dominant cultures have things like grooming gangs, human trafficking, etc you are living in a fantasy world.

But I guess you might need an outsider bogeyman to cope with the reality of human evils.
 
Pointing out a bad behavior in one culture, religion or society as bad doesn’t mean it’s not bad in another culture, religion or society. @RLD, you pointing out the same things in other religions is well taken but doesn’t justify another doing the same thing and should be eliminated in all. I do agree if we are going to pointing fingers at one religion we should point fingers at any and all with the same practices. JMO
 
Without trying to sound too judgemental, it strikes me that more primitive cultures have much lower "ages of consent". And many of these Islamic factions are functioning in very poor and not advanced parts of the world. One has to strive, when a group like that sets up a community in your country, is that your police can enforce your key laws on them, and over time they start to culturally evolve in your direction. There are some very good studies showing that 2 nd and 3 rd generation immigrants start to really adopt the local culture. But if you let these folks in, you need both carrot and stick to cause them to adopt the best parts of the dominant culture.
The adoption studies you are talking about are almost always with Hispanic,European and some Asian/pacific island they almost all have a Christian influence.. most central and South Americans are Catholic the farther back you go the more true that is. Most Eastern European cultures which have moved into the west much more over the last 40 years orthodox Christian, most Asians I’ve know in the states parents are catholic or Protestant I’ve never met any who’s parents followed their traditional folk religions.. and I grew up and went to school with a majority Filipino with South Korean and Vietnamese mixed in.
If you go back to the early 1900’s those immigrants almost exclusively European had Christian ideology except for maybe the Jewish influx in the 1890’s and after the great wars. Still all based in a similar theological belief system.

I don’t see where Islamic radicals will ever be willing to assimilate. Muslims sure. I’ve met many and never had an issue with any of them.. radicals would argue that those Muslims I’ve meet and am friends with aren’t true muslims so there’s that little hiccup. Also if you look up the data on Islam it says 1-5% are radical, 5-10% are sympathizers to those groups overall and 15-20% are sympathetic or supportive in conflict nations(Iraq,pak,Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia and such. If it’s 2 billion people we are talking about 20-100million that wish the worlds destruction or subjugation, 100-200mil that support their goals. And 1/5 of conflict zone population which also happen to be the people most likely to flee and move into the western nations since the gulf nations wisely will not let them in.
Now you are correct by percentage it is a majority of the overall people that are peaceful but the minority still makes up numbers bigger then any European nations population and how do you distinguish them apart.
Also while you are correct that evil acts are done by all groups and races. Only one group condones messing with kids and practice killing those they disagree with.
 

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