Politics

[PARA45]

 

[fourfive8]

Heckuva game of Whack-a-Mole. I think each sidewinder costs 200k-300k plus time cost and risk to plane and pilot, but who’s counting. Some would argue good range practice… if you count shooting fat, relatively stationary floating objects as useful practice. Maybe a better question would be NORAD radar detection ability and discrimination practice and who/when decisions made for intercept. I notice Murkowski couldn’t stand it and got into the “sounding tough” act following idiot in chief’s lead. You know, “Corn Pop was a bad dude”.

I wouldn’t want to be flock of migrating birds, moving at altitude about now.

 

[reineke]

@RayB: now this is an interesting approach, which, in my humble perception, shows, that European History is not your favourite topic.

Would your wonderful Mr.Trump have been in charge of the USA 1914, and not the democratic segregationist Wilson, neither France, nor -even less- the United Kingdom would have given a fart on his opinion. 1914 the USA were a medium power without much influence in international, let alone European politics. Actually WW1 was the start for the US to gain power and influence, as they finally with their economical power, not with their soldiers, decided the war. Nevertheless during the so called peace negotiations in Versailles, in spite of his merits for the cause of France and Great Britain, Wilson could not decisively enforce all of his 14 topics, as France wanted their revenge and the Republicans in the US worked against him.

And as to Chamberlain 1938 - Trump would never have had the patience or Style to negotiate with Hitler, who was as short-fused as Trump. Moreover, the deal itself was excellent - only that good old Adolf already had decided to ignore any deal hindering him to start the war he wanted- and, due to the econonomical sitation of Germany, needed. So even if Trump would have been the dealmaker he pretends to be, it would not have changed anything.

 

[sgt_zim]

Heckuva game of Whack-a-Mole. I think each sidewinder costs 200k-300k plus time cost and risk to plane and pilot, but who’s counting. Some would argue good range practice… if you count shooting fat, relatively stationary floating objects as useful practice. Maybe a better question would be NORAD radar detection ability and discrimination practice and who/when decisions made for intercept. I notice Murkowski couldn’t stand it and got into the “sounding tough” act following idiot in chief’s lead. You know, “Corn Pop was a bad dude”.

I wouldn’t want to be flock of migrating birds, moving at altitude about now.

Yeah, with respect to Murkowsi's "sounding tough," there is this gem from GoT...

And I particularly enjoy hearing people say "we need to make sure China understands this is unacceptable." No effing kidding. They know it is, and don't give a crap because we have a feckless dotard at the helm.

 

[Ray B]

@reineke - noted previously, Pearls before swine.

 

[reineke]

@RayB - classical style of your hero - insults instead of arguments

 

[fourfive8]

According to the admin’s spokesidiots,…the first, really big, legitimate threat Chicom balloon was not shot down out of an abundance of caution. Now these latest whatever small, floating ufos (which could be research balloons, or foreign beta test for reaction balloons or flocks of birds or radar anomalies or copycat pranksters launching weather balloons available thru Amazon inflated by a bottle of helium from the local part supply store, etc.) are being shot down out of an abundance of caution!

Our gov idiots need to make up their minds and talk straight. If I hear, “out of an abundance of caution” one more time, I might have to gag myself with a fork while sticking a needle into one of my eardrums!

 

[sgt_zim]

...the deal itself was excellent - only that good old Adolf already had decided to ignore any deal hindering him...

That's sorta like saying "communism looks good on paper." The Munich Pact was a pile of crap. It was only an excellent deal for Hitler because he didn't deal at arm's length, and had no intention of it.

I mean, I could say I got a great deal for a Bugatti at 50K USD, and then the dude I struck the deal with just ran off with my money.

Reality is the final arbiter.

 

[Ray B]

@reineke - Seen a mirror lately?

 

[reineke]

@sgt.zim: of course you got a point there-but that is not the context I was addressing.
RayB alleged Trump would have cut a better deal- I just wanted to underline that under the
historical facts then prevailing, NOBODY could have cut a better deal, as Hitler had
no intention to stick to any deal at all.

 

[reineke]

@ Ray B ok let's cool down a bit. I did not mean to insult you, I just described ironically that in
my view you do not know very much about European history - which is quite understandable
for a US Citizen. I do not know very much about US History either.
So what about about a reply to the further content of my message?

 

[Mekaniks]

According to the admin’s spokesidiots,…the first, really big, legitimate threat Chicom balloon was not shot down out of an abundance of caution. Now these latest whatever small, floating ufos (which could be research balloons, or foreign beta test for reaction balloons or flocks of birds or radar anomalies or copycat pranksters launching weather balloons available thru Amazon inflated by a bottle of helium from the local part supply store, etc.) are being shot down out of an abundance of caution!

Our gov idiots need to make up their minds and talk straight. If I hear, “out of an abundance of caution” one more time, I might have to gag myself with a fork while sticking a needle into one of my eardrums!

Probably should reschedule any hot air ballon rides in the near future

 

[Red Leg]

@sgt.zim: of course you got a point there-but that is not the context I was addressing.
RayB alleged Trump would have cut a better deal- I just wanted to underline that under the
historical facts then prevailing, NOBODY could have cut a better deal, as Hitler had
no intention to stick to any deal at all.

Exactly. The only potential solution was to cut no deal at all. It may be that France and the UK had already lost credible deterrent power by acquiescing to the reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936. But the threat of war in 1938 carried far more risk to both the German military and Nazi Party control than the following crisis in '39 with respect to Poland. It is especially important to remember in '38, Hitler did not have an ally in Russia supporting his Polish ambitions. Would an earlier display of backbone have averted a World War? I find it very unlikely. But the course of the war may have been very different.

And I absolutely agree that Putin's goals were set with regard to Ukraine regardless of the current occupant of the White House. I find the notion that Trump would have stopped Putin's ambitions as unlikely as his recent braggadocio that he could easily end in the war in 24 hours.

But Biden made a serious blunder when at a press conference in January he said “It’s one thing if it’s a minor incursion, and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do, et cetera." Putin would have been hard pressed not to have interpreted that as at least a partial green light. He and his advisors miscalculation with respect to Ukrainian resistance is the only thing that has allowed this example of presidential fecklessness to have been overcome by events.

 

[Doug3006]

I agree @Red Leg, that Biden’s blunder factored into Putin’s decision to invade. How could it not? In a twisted way, I think a quick Russian victory (limited in scale as Biden intimated or a complete rout) would have benefited Biden too. If Russia had destroyed Ukraine’s military and overturned the government in 90 days, I think the whole affair would be forgotten by now. Who talks about Crimea now? Heck, who talks about the Afghan withdrawal anymore? We lost American lives in that debacle! Instead the heroic defense of Ukraine has been in the news (though not as consistently as it should) for a year. A constant reminder of Joe’s fecklessness.

 

[fourfive8]

The more I watch the media carry on about alien ufos re: these latest shoot-downs, the more I think the mis/disinformation effort from within the Mil/Gov - bureaucratic/political complex is being somewhat successful. Confusion and flawed intrepretation can be an objective of a disinformation campaign. In a previous life, I occassionally worked in a civilian capacity opposite a former military (Air Force) MIB operative. Believe me they are not any smarter nor more educated than the average person. In many ways they can act less educated and be dumber. Talking to them, many times, is like talking to an IRS agent who thinks they have your number or an insurance adjuster with the same dead pan, creepy inner self righteousness of whatever philosophy they are trained in. Good at stonewalling anything, with no soul, guilt or thought. But they are not geniuses nor clever nor very good at effective communication. Kind of spooky folks, without much genuine personality I guess you could say. But MIB do exist and it may some of their work we are seeing a manifestation of with these idiotic news releases, press conferences and briefings.

 

[spike.t]

So before they said a couple of balloons flew over but trump etc weren't told...now saying it happened more during his term but nobody knew..... and one lot saying extraterrestrial....and the press woman denying it....

BBC News - White House defends decision to shoot down flying objects

White House defends decision to shoot down flying objects

Questions remain over what the three objects shot down over North America this weekend were.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mekaniks]

So before they said a couple of balloons flew over but trump etc weren't told...now saying it happened more during his term but nobody knew..... and one lot saying extraterrestrial....and the press woman denying it....

BBC News - White House defends decision to shoot down flying objects

White House defends decision to shoot down flying objects

Questions remain over what the three objects shot down over North America this weekend were.

www.bbc.co.uk

Just wait until other countries start shooting down US flying "objects". The press is gonna go crazy(r)

 

[steve white]

Exactly. The only potential solution was to cut no deal at all. It may be that France and the UK had already lost credible deterrent power by acquiescing to the reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936. But the threat of war in 1938 carried far more risk to both the German military and Nazi Party control than the following crisis in '39 with respect to Poland. It is especially important to remember in '38, Hitler did not have an ally in Russia supporting his Polish ambitions. Would an earlier display of backbone have averted a World War? I find it very unlikely. But the course of the war may have been very different.

And I absolutely agree that Putin's goals were set with regard to Ukraine regardless of the current occupant of the White House. I find the notion that Trump would have stopped Putin's ambitions as unlikely as his recent braggadocio that he could easily end in the war in 24 hours.

But Biden made a serious blunder when at a press conference in January he said “It’s one thing if it’s a minor incursion, and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do, et cetera." Putin would have been hard pressed not to have interpreted that as at least a partial green light. He and his advisors miscalculation with respect to Ukrainian resistance is the only thing that has allowed this example of presidential fecklessness to have been overcome by events.

Perhaps Putin's goals were set more by plus $50 barrel oil to pay for war (correlation to Crimea as well)?...

 

[Ray B]

The "first" balloon went over Alaska Canada, Continental US and nothing was said until a private citizen photographed it and posted on social media- only then did the govt do anything about it, and they waited until the balloons mission was accomplished and over water before shooting it down. I wonder if no citizen had posted it, if the govt would have allowed it to proceed unharmed and kept secret.

 

[bowjijohn]

I suspect that collective Governments have known about these for a while

Possibly, If you are able to detect them, and the other side thinks you can’t
( because you haven’t reacted) then it makes operational sense to keep quiet

Now that capability is known

Perhaps because Gov was forced to show its hand, if indeed the balloon’s presence was revealed by a civilian photographer

Or, perhaps it has been revealed in order to whip up more anti Chinese sentiment as we move into a more confrontational phase in global politics

What ever the truth of the matter- it will not be the story being peddled to the media, and via them, to us