Politics

[WAB]

I agree with you on most occasions and respect your views but this is not totally about choices.
Capitalism love it or hate it (I never said evil) is a system where spending money is the biggest driver.
If everyone would live like you or Scott this country wouldn't function or be prosperous as today.
It's a great system but it wouldn't exist without people borrowing and living beyond their means which is encouraged.
Also having safety nets in a society has nothing to do with socialism which is generally misunderstood or used politically.
Socialism is defined as a political system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are owned and operated by the community as a whole, for the community.
You can easily have the safety nets and operate in a free market, capital based economy which happens in various countries.

OK, we’re going full blown Austrian economics now! (In good humor of course!). At its core a free market economy is about allowing the dispersed knowledge of society to be applied to economic decisions. This is done by allowing all participants to act in their own self interest. The belief, which has been proven true time after time, is that the greatest wealth will be created by allowing this to happen.

Those who make good decisions gain control over more resources, allowing their decision making to create even greater wealth. Those who make poor decisions lose resources and have less effect.

Government’s appropriate role is to create the environment where this activity is protected and promoted. Frederic Bastiat laid out the appropriate role of government in society as well as anyone ever has.

Borrowing money is not necessary to drive wealth creation, although done properly it can be used to accelerate good decisions (it also accelerates the outcome of bad decisions).

Are we encouraged to borrow? Absolutely. Do we have to borrow? Absolutely not.
Would our society prosper without irresponsible borrowing? I believe that it would, but I don’t think we will ever see it. People are far too addicted to instant gratification for that to happen.

 

[Doubleplay]

You are saying that you are forced by the system to borrow money. I'm saying you are making personal decisions. Nobody and certainly the system are not forcing you to sign loan papers. Nor is it forcing anyone else. Those are choices!

We agree that it makes sense to borrow at low long term rates for properties. But it is still a choice. I was merely pointing out that is often a good choice.

And I was pointing out that if you dislike being in debt... Pay it off!

Stop spending on things you want but do not need instead of paying off your debt.... Or stop complaining and stop saying you are being forced to be in debt!

Once again I'm not talking about myself or you it's the whole system enticing people to get in debt as you also correctly stated.

 

[Doubleplay]

OK, we’re going full blown Austrian economics now! (In good humor of course!). At its core a free market economy is about allowing the dispersed knowledge of society to be applied to economic decisions. This is done by allowing all participants to act in their own self interest. The belief, which has been proven true time after time, is that the greatest wealth will be created by allowing this to happen.

Those who make good decisions gain control over more resources, allowing their decision making to create even greater wealth. Those who make poor decisions lose resources and have less effect.

Government’s appropriate role is to create the environment where this activity is protected and promoted. Frederic Bastiat laid out the appropriate role of government in society as well as anyone ever has.

Borrowing money is not necessary to drive wealth creation, although done properly it can be used to accelerate good decisions (it also accelerates the outcome of bad decisions).

Are we encouraged to borrow? Absolutely. Do we have to borrow? Absolutely not.
Would our society prosper without irresponsible borrowing? I believe that it would, but I don’t think we will ever see it. People are far too addicted to instant gratification for that to happen.

Good points..

However speaking of economics which is my grad degree btw:

If a population decides to save more money at all income levels, delay buying and pay everything cash and not borrow(responsibly or irresponsibly), then total revenues for companies will decline.
This decreased demand causes a contraction of output, giving employers and employees lower income and contracts the whole economy.

It's a fact and not a theory.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

OK, we’re going full blown Austrian economics now! (In good humor of course!). At its core a free market economy is about allowing the dispersed knowledge of society to be applied to economic decisions. This is done by allowing all participants to act in their own self interest. The belief, which has been proven true time after time, is that the greatest wealth will be created by allowing this to happen.

Those who make good decisions gain control over more resources, allowing their decision making to create even greater wealth. Those who make poor decisions lose resources and have less effect.

Government’s appropriate role is to create the environment where this activity is protected and promoted. Frederic Bastiat laid out the appropriate role of government in society as well as anyone ever has.

Borrowing money is not necessary to drive wealth creation, although done properly it can be used to accelerate good decisions (it also accelerates the outcome of bad decisions).

Are we encouraged to borrow? Absolutely. Do we have to borrow? Absolutely not.
Would our society prosper without irresponsible borrowing? I believe that it would, but I don’t think we will ever see it. People are far too addicted to instant gratification for that to happen.

In full blown Austrian economics, does everyone get a Glock?

 

[flying sailor]

In full blown Austrian economics, does everyone get a Glock?

I will take two, they are small.

 

[NE 7x57]

His 2024 Memorial Day address…….

I didn't listen, to preserve what little of my sanity I have left I refrain from listening to JB or his opponent. So he made it about himself? Was he fighting street to street in Hue Vietnam? The man has told so many outright lies that he no longer even tries to keep them straight.

It's still difficult for me to grasp the fact that he is President of the United States, at least in name and even more difficult to believe he's running again.

Long ago in the Superman comics there was a place called Bizzarro World, a cube shaped planet where everything was the opposite of life on earth. It was a crime to make things beautiful and creating ugliness was perfection. Silly me, I thought it was a fictional place, now I'm not too sure. Might want to check the earth for signs of cubism.

 

[WAB]

Good points..

However speaking of economics which is my grad degree btw:

If a population decides to save more money at all income levels, delay buying and pay everything cash and not borrow(responsibly or irresponsibly), then total revenues for companies will decline.
This decreased demand causes a contraction of output, giving employers and employees lower income and contracts the whole economy.

It's a fact and not a theory.

Agreed, but it’s a timing effect, assuming that you are moving from a position of debt to a position of no debt. It’s largely a theoretical discussion as we will never see it, but if the system were built without debt to begin with, I believe that you would see a different outcome.

I also agree that my approach to personal finance is atypical, and takes advantage of the poor decisions of others.

 

[ActionBob]

Nobody is telling you how to live, you can do whatever you want but you are in minority as being debt free in this country and it's not always about choices, it's the capitalism.
Also don't jump into conclusions about Europe like stacked houses and Opel etc.. Europe is a big place and there are a lot people living like you over there specially in the rural areas.

Capitalism is precisely about choices.

The choice to be successful, whatever that means to the individual. And the choice to be slothful. The choice to work hard, or not. The choice to work smart, or not. The choice to borrow money, or not. The choice to live happily within your means. Or not. And the choice to change your status in life.

However the opportunity to truly succeed cannot exist without the risk of failure. But under Capitalism, if you fail, you have the opportunity, the choice mind you.... To learn from that failure and try again.

I have no college degree, I've had to figure this stuff out by myself.

 

[ActionBob]

Once again I'm not talking about myself or you it's the whole system enticing people to get in debt as you also correctly stated.

<Yep. Our system is designed to make us borrow money to own stuff so we work till we die to pay debts.>

Ok. Which is it? Does the system "make you borrow money"... i.e. twist you arm.

Or does it entice you?

There is a whole World of difference in what you are saying.

It's like being drafted into the Army..... Or being recruited.... volunteering.

 

[WAB]

Ok. Which is it? Does the system "make you borrow money"... i.e. twist you arm.

Or does it entice you?

There is a whole World of difference in what you are saying.

It's like being drafted into the Army..... Or being recruited.

The system definitely entices people to live above their means. It is crazy how little discipline the average person exhibits in financial decisions. They must have the next shiny object, and they must have it now.

Even as a new graduate I refused to live for a house payment. Live within your means, buy quality when you have cash for it, be prudent and patient.

 

[freefall]

Whilst I have 0 patience or sympathy for morons who borrow money they haven't a hope of repayment, I also have 0 patience or sympathy for predators who lend them money and then don't get repaid.
I once had a trusty assistant who had maxed out 4 credit cards, owed around 100k at 21(?)%. said "I can't pay that off! It's stupid to think I could pay them that kind of money!"
I said, "Why'd you spend it?"
He said, "They kept sending me new cards!"
He deserves to have 0 credit forever, the card companies deserve to be stiffed. My indigestion comes when I as a taxpayer have to pay off the sonsabitches who kept sending him cards.

 

[Scott CWO]

Nobody is telling you how to live, you can do whatever you want but you are in minority as being debt free in this country and it's not always about choices, it's the capitalism.
Also don't jump into conclusions about Europe like stacked houses and Opel etc.. Europe is a big place and there are a lot people living like you over there specially in the rural areas.

No chit Captain Obvious. I’ve been to Europe and the major cities. Most European cities make even NYC buildings and apartments look spacious. Large populations of people have lived in Europe for thousands of years so most streets and cities are more densely packed compared to US cities that have only existed for hundreds of years. Our culture evolved with more space to occupy, therefore, we have an automobile based society.

And yes, the Biden Administration is trying to tell us how to live and what type of vehicles we can buy in the future.

 

[Scott CWO]

I’ve got to agree with Scott, it is about choices. I rose through the ranks from new grad engineer to running a pretty sizable
Organization. At every level, most people were living above their income. As a young engineer it was the second car, the extra vacation, etc.. As a senior exec it was the second and third homes, expensive cars, private jets for vacations, and on and on. My wife and I chose to live below our means at every stage. As a result we were debt free when I was in my early 40’s and I was able to retire for the first time at 49. Capitalism is not evil. It is a system that allows you to make your own decisions as opposed to some bureaucrat making them for you. If you make poor decisions, you do not have the same safety nets that a socialist society provides. It’s not good or evil, it’s just a system.

I truly wish that folks who don’t like capitalism would move to a socialist country, as opposed to trying to change the USA.

Yes, I did exactly the same thing. Lived conservatively. Built my business. Didn’t buy new cars every other year or take lots of trips. Mostly traveled to see family. Bought my current small ranch and built my house and barn in 2001 with a 15 year mortgage and the equity coming forward from my previous place. Debt free by 2014 at 48 years of age. It’s possible if people can control their urges and your spouse is on the same page. I didn’t care about “Keeping up with the Joneses.” Now I can do things the Joneses cannot.

 

[Scott CWO]

I agree with you on most occasions and respect your views but this is not totally about choices.
Capitalism love it or hate it (I never said evil) is a system where spending money is the biggest driver.
If everyone would live like you or Scott this country wouldn't function or be prosperous as today.
It's a great system but it wouldn't exist without people borrowing and living beyond their means which is encouraged.
Also having safety nets in a society has nothing to do with socialism which is generally misunderstood or used politically.
Socialism is defined as a political system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are owned and operated by the community as a whole, for the community.
You can easily have the safety nets and operate in a free market, capital based economy which happens in various countries.

Wrong. I chose to be a bigger consumer later after my place was paid off and kids out of the house and through college instead of living above my means earlier. It’s a choice. There’s also a freedom feeling that comes without a big monthly mortgage payment knowing that if the music stops and/or income drops, I’m good to go.

 

[fourfive8]

There is still a camp within the communist/socialist movement that believes they have the best plan for an economic system, a philosophy that, in some form, predates Marx by hundreds of years. Point out all the past failures (never mind the 100% failure rate) and they come right back with the predictable, blind arrogant response of, "it is the best plan and we just need to tweak it here and there for it to work".

 

[fourfive8]

Still a large, strong field for Trump's VP with very few exclusions. My gut tells me Tulsi Gabbard is moving up the list rapidly.

 

[Newboomer]

There is still a camp within the communist/socialist movement that believes they have the best plan for an economic system, a philosophy that, in some form, predates Marx by hundreds of years. Point out all the past failures (never mind the 100% failure rate) and they come right back with the predictable, blind arrogant response of, "it is the best plan and we just need to tweak it here and there for it to work".

If it needs to be tweaked it ain't working.

 

[deewayne2003]

There is still a camp within the communist/socialist movement that believes they have the best plan for an economic system, a philosophy that, in some form, predates Marx by hundreds of years. Point out all the past failures (never mind the 100% failure rate) and they come right back with the predictable, blind arrogant response of, "it is the best plan and we just need to tweak it here and there for it to work".

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

 

[jpr9954]

I didn't realize tomorrow is General Election Day in South Africa. I came across a link to South African News24's "Manifesto Meter".

I say the EFF scare me not only because of their "Kill the Boer" rhetoric but their economic platform of nationalization/land confiscation. It is a recipe for disaster as well as civil war.