Politics

[Slope77]

@Slope77

I am a registered Republican. I voted for Trump twice. That won't happen a third time, if it comes to that.

You said "They will just stay home, not vote" if it's Haley. That perfectly states my plan of action if it's Trump.

I find Haley very electable. It's a shame I likely won't get a chance to cast my vote to support that.

I don’t want any excuses from him. I don’t want to hear how he got cheated. If he doesn’t think he can win, he needs to get out. I am not a Haley fan. As I am sure you can tell. I would have picked Desantis. Being better than Biden is an awfully low bar.

 

[Red Leg]

As I recall, when Russia acceded to the reunification of Germany, guarantees were made that NATO would have no further eastward expansion. Subsequently, it was expanded through Eastern Europe and the Baltics to the Russian border. Good for those countries. They came under the umbrella. And Russia tolerated this, until Ukraine.

Ukraine was a step too far. Because NATO there was an existential threat for Russia. We knew that, of course, and we picked the fight.

Further, you will notice that Russia doesn’t often buy into the leftist/new world order ideologies. I’ve said before - I’m not so sure we are always the good guys anymore. We need to have a country like that under our thumb, don’t we? Gotta get them flying that rainbow flag and allowing uncontrolled immigration and so forth, right? They need to adopt those liberal western values, no? After all, we are the absolute bastion of Christian propriety.

Why was it ever in our strategic interest to guarantee Ukraine’s security? To keep Russia from invading Maine? Because the Black Sea is an important trade route? What is the American interest?

Ukraine miscalculated. They should have aimed for economic integration with Europe - not security or military alliance.

The resurgence of the Russian Empire?!?!?! Are you kidding me??? Given their (lack of) success in Ukraine, that seems beyond paranoid. As I recall, their demographics are horrible. The conflict has laid bare the ineffectiveness of their conventional forces. As I said, they have been a fading threat for decades.

But this is all very neocon - everything, everywhere, is a threat. We must control the globe. If all else fails, bomb the heck out of them. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Our strategic mistake was making Russia a resource for China, which comprises a far greater threat than Russia owning the (Russian-speaking) fringes of a backwater, corrupt country, that hasn’t really even existed as a sovereign nation for centuries, until so constructed by Russia itself.

Thanks for the conversation, Red Leg. It is always good to see from other’s viewpoint. That is enough geopolitics for me, for a while. I’m out.

Ukraine was a step too far? I wonder how the whole Finland and Sweden joining NATO is going down with the strategic geniuses in the Kremlin and appeasers in the US? After all, Putin has now managed to turn the Baltic into a NATO lake and Kaliningrad, or perhaps we should now say Konigsberg, is nothing but an exposed pimple in the center of NATO. St. Petersburg is now in hiking distance of the NATO boundary, and Russia's submarine fleet is now under direct NATO observation. And Ukraine was too far?

I still find this notion that "we picked a fight" the most arrogantly ignorant claim of the neo-isolationists. The Ukrainian people, not the US and certainly not the CIA, made the decision to chart a future aligned with Western Europe. To the KGB troll in the Kremlin, that was indeed apparently intolerable. But so what? What right does Russia or Putin have to claim dominion over a separate people who want nothing to do with being part of his despotic regime. To remind, they have been an independent nation for three decades.

The resurgence of the Russian Empire?!?!?! Are you kidding me??? Given their (lack of) success in Ukraine, that seems beyond paranoid. As I recall, their demographics are horrible. The conflict has laid bare the ineffectiveness of their conventional forces.

No, I am not kidding you, and nor are a lot of other very serious and experienced students of American national interests. None of us are Neocons. If Putin and his regime are successful in seizing and reincorporating the Ukraine into the Russian empire, it will dramatically change the strategic dynamic in Europe. To not recognize that is frankly incomprehensible.

And the notion that we made Russia a tool of China is the same nonsense spewed by every blame America first radical that has existed since Vietnam. China sees itself in perpetual, if not existential, conflict with the US. It is a conflict based on mercantile rather than ideological interests. China sees a resurgent Russia as a foil to be used in that conflict. Ukrainian success changes that asset into a liability. That is clearly an American national interest.

As I have stated many times previously, it is beyond my comprehension that I am a member of a party in which many apparently believe assisting Russia in attaining its strategic goals is in my country's interests. Russia, certainly not Putin's Russia, is not my ally.

 

[275r7x57]

On what do you base your analysis that Hailey is unelectable? Do you have access to some sort of polling not available to the rest of us or is it a special political insight? Every reasonably respected national poll has her out performing Trump significantly. Of course those results are ignored or disparaged in Trump world in places like Breitbart and Revolver. Moreover Tucker Carlson and his ilk have made opposing Hailey something of a personal crusade - rather like Zelensky.

I just it both telling and amusing that my party would rather ignore the evidence of the weakness of their presumptive nominee over one who clearly has the potential to actually win. I would add Hailey also far more representative of the Reagan tradition of conservatism than Trump who is not a conservative at all.

Many republicans will vote down ticket and not vote for him again. Still others simply will stay home. He is bleeding independents and moderate democrats whenever he opens his mouth. That is reflected in actual analysis and polling.

I personally do not believe he has a clue about foreign policy or a basic understanding of this country's actual national interests. I am convinced his concept of national interest is totally embodied in his own self-indulgent personal interests which I believe he puts before everything and everyone. Note, I said that I believe that personally rather than offer actual evidence - but, I am hardly alone.

He clearly did good work with respect to immigration, but he is also the person who created the conditions that caused the Covid economic catastrophe. He gets a total pass, but some in Trump denial should remember the now apparently "dangerous vaccine" was his achievement as was shutting down our economy.

He will likely lose us this election and his lack coattails will likely also lose us the house and perhaps the senate. We will have no one to blame but ourselves.

+1.6% Haley vs Biden

2024 General Election: Haley vs. Biden Polls | RealClearPolling

Explore poll data on the 2024 General Election between Haley and Biden with RealClearPolling. Uncover trends and gain insight into electoral dynamics for key races and decisive outcomes."

www.realclearpolling.com

+2.5% Trump vs Biden

2024 General Election: Trump vs. Biden Polls | RealClearPolling

Explore poll data on the 2024 General Election between Trump and Biden with RealClearPolling. Uncover trends and gain insight into electoral dynamics for key races and decisive outcomes.

www.realclearpolling.com

Not sure how you think Haley is always polling better than Trump.

 

[Red Leg]

+1.6% Haley vs Biden

2024 General Election: Haley vs. Biden Polls | RealClearPolling

Explore poll data on the 2024 General Election between Haley and Biden with RealClearPolling. Uncover trends and gain insight into electoral dynamics for key races and decisive outcomes."

www.realclearpolling.com

+2.5% Trump vs Biden

2024 General Election: Trump vs. Biden Polls | RealClearPolling

Explore poll data on the 2024 General Election between Trump and Biden with RealClearPolling. Uncover trends and gain insight into electoral dynamics for key races and decisive outcomes.

www.realclearpolling.com

Not sure how you think Haley is always polling better than Trump.

I don't "think" anything with regard to what I posted. I simply reported the latest poll released today. Quinnipiac is fairly well respected. You are posting the average of several different polls over the last month. What is your point? Even the Trump acolytes over on Citizen Free Press seem concerned.

I would urge you to actually read the article I attached. Your beef is with them - and perhaps the electorate.

 

[fourfive8]

..., but he is also the person who created the conditions that caused the Covid economic catastrophe. He gets a total pass, but some in Trump denial should remember the now apparently "dangerous vaccine" was his achievement as was shutting down our economy.

BS! That is not the covid scamdemic history at all. At best a revisionist's history put forward by one who takes advantage of the loss of historical accuracy in the murkiness of time. Trump rammed through the process of cutting red tape for development of the vaccines and making available huge inventories of equipment and therapeutics if needed or requested by the states. One category of vaccine, by both Pfizer and Moderna was the MRNA type. That is the type that has caused all the problems which could not have been forecast by anyone. Trump caught covid and made a big deal about recovery and the use of certain therapeutics. Fauci the camera chaser and darling of the left and MSM was the one providing guidance for all the local and state authorities, who with the newly discovered power and control, set forth the draconian lock downs that you speak of. NOT Trump! Those lockdowns resulted in permanent closings of businesses and loss of economic opportunity and closing of schools and the so called remote learning disaster for many students. Trump was de-selected and lost most power in November of 2020. Most of this world wide, self-inflicted damage originated and continued well AFTER Trump left office. Some states IIRC like Florida and South Dakota largely ignored Fauci and kept kept their state's economies open operating. Hardly something that could have been done if it indeed was a binding legal federal edict, as you insinuate as directed by Trump. Biden did not rescind the covid emergency order until May 2023. I also remember your pushing for and supporting the proposed vaccine passport. I did not notice you calling out Fauci or the state and local officials largely responsible for all the damaging lock-down nonsense.

 

[Red Leg]

BS! That is not the covid scamdemic history at all. At best a revisionist's history put forward by one who takes advantage of the loss of historical accuracy in the murkiness of time. Trump rammed through the process of cutting red tape for development of the vaccines and making available huge inventories of equipment and therapeutics if needed or requested by the states. One category of vaccine, by both Pfizer and Moderna was the MRNA type. That is the type that has caused all the problems which could not have been forecast by anyone. Trump caught covid and made a big deal about recovery and the use of certain therapeutics. Fauci the camera chaser and darling of the left and MSM was the one providing guidance for all the local and state authorities, who with the newly discovered power and control, set forth the draconian lock downs that you speak of. NOT Trump! Those lockdowns resulted in permanent closings of businesses and loss of economic opportunity and closing of schools and the so called remote learning disaster for many students. Trump was de-selected and lost most power in November of 2020. Most of this world wide, self-inflicted damage originated and continued well AFTER Trump left office. Some states IIRC like Florida and South Dakota largely ignored Fauci's and kept kept their economies operating. Hardly something that could have been done if it indeed was a binding legal federal edict, as you insinuate as directed by Trump. Biden did not rescind the covid emergency order until May 2023. I also remember your pushing for and supporting the proposed vaccine passport. I did not notice you calling out Fauci or the state and local officials largely responsible for all the damaging lock-down nonsense.

How did I miss that? I thought that Trump was President. Lord knows he certainly spent hours in front of every available press conference appearing to be in charge. I guess I was confused that he actually wasn't and really had no responsibility for any decisions of his administration. Try that as CEO of any company in this country.

Seriously though, just imagine the hue and cry directed at the president from the right had the same decisions been made under a Biden administration. You said it yourself, Florida and South Dakota were successful because they largely ignored the Trump administration of which Fauci was the key member with respect to Covid.

 

[275r7x57]

I don’t always agree with Trump, but he will get my vote if he is the nominee.

I can’t stand Haley, but she will for sure get my vote if she is the nominee.

I will NOT vote for Biden! I will NOT sit at home on Election Day! I WILL cast my vote and hope and pray that the ballot box far. Or at least somewhat far.

 

[wesheltonj]

. . . China sees itself in perpetual, if not existential, conflict with the US. It is a conflict based on mercantile rather than ideological interests. China sees a resurgent Russia as a foil to be used in that conflict. . .

Who can blame them when we previously invaded mainland China in the past.

 

[Red Leg]

Who can blame them when we previously invaded mainland China in the past.

The Boxer Rebellion?

 

[wesheltonj]

The Boxer Rebellion?

Yes, and Operation Beleaguer.

 

[Red Leg]

I don’t always agree with Trump, but he will get my vote if he is the nominee.

I can’t stand Haley, but she will for sure get my vote if she is the nominee.

I will NOT vote for Biden! I will NOT sit at home on Election Day! I WILL cast my vote and hope and pray that the ballot box far. Or at least somewhat far.

I absolutely understand.

Haley represents the remnant Reagan wing of the Republican party interested in fiscal conservatism, a broad party base, and strong defense. I would eagerly vote for her for president.

I personally think Trump is far too interested in Trump. I voted for him twice - the second time was far harder than the first. I do not believe I can do it again. Moreover, last week he announced he really doesn't want my vote at all. That makes it easier. I'll vote the republican down ticket and pray we can somehow take the senate in spite of his far too short coat tails.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes, and Operation Beleaguer.

Point taken, but not sure a post war repatriation mission counts as an invasion.

 

[wesheltonj]

Point taken, but not sure a post war repatriation mission counts as an invasion.

My point with Operation Beleaguer was it was American military on Chinese soil who were not exactly accepted with open arms. Whereas, the Boxer Rebellion was an invasion and American military on Chinese soil. The Chinese have very long memories.

 

[Slope77]

Ukraine was a step too far? I wonder how the whole Finland and Sweden joining NATO is going down with the strategic geniuses in the Kremlin and appeasers in the US? After all, Putin has now managed to turn the Baltic into a NATO lake and Kaliningrad, or perhaps we should now say Konigsberg, is nothing but an exposed pimple in the center of NATO. St. Petersburg is now in hiking distance of the NATO boundary, and Russia's submarine fleet is now under direct NATO observation. And Ukraine was too far?

I still find this notion that "we picked a fight" the most arrogantly ignorant claim of the neo-isolationists. The Ukrainian people, not the US and certainly not the CIA, made the decision to chart a future aligned with Western Europe. To the KGB troll in the Kremlin, that was indeed apparently intolerable. But so what? What right does Russia or Putin have to claim dominion over a separate people who want nothing to do with being part of his despotic regime. To remind, they have been an independent nation for three decades.



No, I am not kidding you, and nor are a lot of other very serious and experienced students of American national interests. None of us are Neocons. If Putin and his regime are successful in seizing and reincorporating the Ukraine into the Russian empire, it will dramatically change the strategic dynamic in Europe. To not recognize that is frankly incomprehensible.

And the notion that we made Russia a tool of China is the same nonsense spewed by every blame America first radical that has existed since Vietnam. China sees itself in perpetual, if not existential, conflict with the US. It is a conflict based on mercantile rather than ideological interests. China sees a resurgent Russia as a foil to be used in that conflict. Ukrainian success changes that asset into a liability. That is clearly an American national interest.

As I have stated many times previously, it is beyond my comprehension that I am a member of a party in which many apparently believe assisting Russia in attaining its strategic goals is in my country's interests. Russia, certainly not Putin's Russia, is not my ally.

I think your mention of Finland/Sweden/Ukraine perfectly illustrates my point. I am fine with welcoming Sweden and Finland into the fold, and Russia didn’t really seem to mind all that much, either. It didn’t start a war. Because that is not an existential threat from the Russian viewpoint. Ukraine is. And my thought is, we didn’t need to set back relations with Russia thirty years, because Ukraine has no strategic value for us, but it does to Russia. It is a liability for us. It’s not like we couldn’t bottle up the Black Sea Fleet at the Bosphorus or Dardanelles, if need be. What does Ukraine do for us?

I’m sure you recall the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cubans wanted the Russians in. We did not. I think it is an interesting parallel. Russia is no more a threat at this point than we have chosen to make them. What dominion did we have over Cuba? Or was it that when you are 80 miles from big bro, it probably isn’t a good idea to be whoring yourself out to your sugar daddy on the other side of the planet? Same concept applies in Ukraine.

It’s not like I am in favor of Russia imposing its will on Ukraine. But it probably wasn’t the wisest choice to be batting around the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO, either. On the other hand why do we care? We can simply fight to the last Ukranian. How magnanimous of us. Of course then you know what is coming - we will send hundreds of billions over there to rebuild after a war that could have been avoided.

I totally agree with you on China’s attitude towards us. And I also believe that the way we have handled the Ukraine situation has guaranteed their access to much needed Russian resources in a war situation. And no, I don’t think that cost/risk is justified by any non-existent benefit of us taking on the security of Ukraine.

If we got into a shooting war with China over Taiwan, I would love for Russia to sit on the sidelines. I can guarantee you that will not be the case now - they would love to help China stick it to us. Because we thought it would be a good thing to maybe bring Ukraine into NATO. One side of that equation would cost us many, many American lives and the other side gives us absolutely NOTHING. Or maybe it got some of our politicians’ sons lucrative seats on the board of some Ukranian oil companies.

I am not saying that we should help Russia meet its strategic goals. On the other hand, I do not see any need or benefit of creating enmity by threatening Russia’s security.

 

[Red Leg]

I think your mention of Finland/Sweden/Ukraine perfectly illustrates my point. I am fine with welcoming Sweden and Finland into the fold, and Russia didn’t really seem to mind all that much, either. It didn’t start a war. Because that is not an existential threat from the Russian viewpoint. Ukraine is. And my thought is, we didn’t need to set back relations with Russia thirty years, because Ukraine has no strategic value for us, but it does to Russia. It is a liability for us. It’s not like we couldn’t bottle up the Black Sea Fleet at the Bosphorus or Dardanelles, if need be. What does Ukraine do for us?

I’m sure you recall the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cubans wanted the Russians in. We did not. I think it is an interesting parallel. Russia is no more a threat at this point than we have chosen to make them. What dominion did we have over Cuba? Or was it that when you are 80 miles from big bro, it probably isn’t a good idea to be whoring yourself out to your sugar daddy on the other side of the planet? Same concept applies in Ukraine.

It’s not like I am in favor of Russia imposing its will on Ukraine. But it probably wasn’t the wisest choice to be batting around the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO, either. On the other hand why do we care? We can simply fight to the last Ukranian. How magnanimous of us. Of course then you know what is coming - we will send hundreds of billions over there to rebuild after a war that could have been avoided.

I totally agree with you on China’s attitude towards us. And I also believe that the way we have handled the Ukraine situation has guaranteed their access to much needed Russian resources in a war situation. And no, I don’t think that cost/risk is justified by any non-existent benefit of us taking on the security of Ukraine.

If we got into a shooting war with China over Taiwan, I would love for Russia to sit on the sidelines. I can guarantee you that will not be the case now - they would love to help China stick it to us. Because we thought it would be a good thing to maybe bring Ukraine into NATO. One side of that equation would cost us many, many American lives and the other side gives us absolutely NOTHING. Or maybe it got some of our politicians’ sons lucrative seats on the board of some Ukranian oil companies.

I am not saying that we should help Russia meet its strategic goals. On the other hand, I do not see any need or benefit of creating enmity by threatening Russia’s security.

I can't make my argument any differently or more clearly, and I could hardly disagree more with your position more completely. I also could not be more certain your perception of Russia's reaction to Finland and Sweden joining NATO could be more wrong. But, we have come to the point we are debating past each other. So, I'll leave it there.

Buy you a scotch sometime.

 

[275r7x57]

I absolutely understand.

Haley represents the remnant Reagan wing of the Republican party interested in fiscal conservatism, a broad party base, and strong defense. I would eagerly vote for her for president.

I personally think Trump is far too interested in Trump. I voted for him twice - the second time was far harder than the first. I do not believe I can do it again. Moreover, last week he announced he really doesn't want my vote at all. That makes it easier. I'll vote the republican down ticket and pray we can somehow take the senate in spite of his far too short coat tails.

I probably dislike Haley as much as you dislike Trump. (To be far I really liked and was impressed with Haley under Trump. There is just something about her now that I do not like. If she is the nominee or President I hope that dislike for her changes and she proves herself in my mind again.)

But I do not understand why people butt hurt by Trump or in my case butt hurt by Haley can’t or won’t suck it, be a big boy and vote for Trump or Haley. Growing the base or being more united is not sitting at home in your safe place crying about the election that you are not willing to go vote in.

Trump haters need to grow up and vote for Trump.

Trump lovers need to grow up and vote for Haley.

Whoever the nominee is.

 

[275r7x57]

I absolutely understand.

Haley represents the remnant Reagan wing of the Republican party interested in fiscal conservatism, a broad party base, and strong defense. I would eagerly vote for her for president.

I personally think Trump is far too interested in Trump. I voted for him twice - the second time was far harder than the first. I do not believe I can do it again. Moreover, last week he announced he really doesn't want my vote at all. That makes it easier. I'll vote the republican down ticket and pray we can somehow take the senate in spite of his far too short coat tails.

I agree and disagree with Haley in regards to Reagan.

Yes, to a point Trump is for Trump. There is no denying that. Trump also did us pretty damn good in his four years as well.

I will take my chances with just about anything compared to what we have now.

 

[Scott CWO]

I think your mention of Finland/Sweden/Ukraine perfectly illustrates my point. I am fine with welcoming Sweden and Finland into the fold, and Russia didn’t really seem to mind all that much, either. It didn’t start a war. Because that is not an existential threat from the Russian viewpoint. Ukraine is. And my thought is, we didn’t need to set back relations with Russia thirty years, because Ukraine has no strategic value for us, but it does to Russia. It is a liability for us. It’s not like we couldn’t bottle up the Black Sea Fleet at the Bosphorus or Dardanelles, if need be. What does Ukraine do for us?

I’m sure you recall the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cubans wanted the Russians in. We did not. I think it is an interesting parallel. Russia is no more a threat at this point than we have chosen to make them. What dominion did we have over Cuba? Or was it that when you are 80 miles from big bro, it probably isn’t a good idea to be whoring yourself out to your sugar daddy on the other side of the planet? Same concept applies in Ukraine.

It’s not like I am in favor of Russia imposing its will on Ukraine. But it probably wasn’t the wisest choice to be batting around the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO, either. On the other hand why do we care? We can simply fight to the last Ukranian. How magnanimous of us. Of course then you know what is coming - we will send hundreds of billions over there to rebuild after a war that could have been avoided.

I totally agree with you on China’s attitude towards us. And I also believe that the way we have handled the Ukraine situation has guaranteed their access to much needed Russian resources in a war situation. And no, I don’t think that cost/risk is justified by any non-existent benefit of us taking on the security of Ukraine.

If we got into a shooting war with China over Taiwan, I would love for Russia to sit on the sidelines. I can guarantee you that will not be the case now - they would love to help China stick it to us. Because we thought it would be a good thing to maybe bring Ukraine into NATO. One side of that equation would cost us many, many American lives and the other side gives us absolutely NOTHING. Or maybe it got some of our politicians’ sons lucrative seats on the board of some Ukranian oil companies.

I am not saying that we should help Russia meet its strategic goals. On the other hand, I do not see any need or benefit of creating enmity by threatening Russia’s security.

Russia didn’t mind all that much when Finland and Sweden joined NATO? You must be kidding. Russia just didn’t do anything about it because they already have their hands full in Ukraine.

 

[freefall]

The idea that anyone would prefer to subject our country to another four years of the destruction we have been enduring for the last four years because they are personally repulsed by the Republican candidate, whoever he or she is, seems to me to be the height of immature stupidity.
If anyone feels insulted by this, I guess you're who I'm talking to.
Personally, I liked DeSantis. I'm afraid that Trump is going to lose due to his childish petulance, but I will vote for WHOEVER the Republican nominee is over WHOEVER the Democrats put up.
The primaries are the time to vote for the person you like. The general election is time to suck it up and vote AGAINST the people who are doing a good job of destroying our nation.

 

[275r7x57]

The idea that anyone would prefer to subject our country to another four years of the destruction we have been enduring for the last four years because they are personally repulsed by the Republican candidate, whoever he or she is, seems to me to be the height of immature stupidity.
If anyone feels insulted by this, I guess you're who I'm talking to.
Personally, I liked DeSantis. I'm afraid that Trump is going to lose due to his childish petulance, but I will vote for WHOEVER the Republican nominee is over WHOEVER the Democrats put up.
The primaries are the time to vote for the person you like. The general election is time to suck it up and vote AGAINST the people who are doing a good job of destroying our nation.

Yep! Well said!