Over under double rifle question

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by Voodooracer, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

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    By the way, I read on this site, a few days ago, someone having decried the fact that, in the act of creating space for the locks, much material is removed from the bar. This is obviously true but WR always fits a good top extension, one that could, quite handily, tolerate the load all on its own (and quite likely to a large extent does).
     

  2. CAustin

    CAustin AH ENABLER BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Ambassador

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    I would love to have a Merkel 470 NE. Every time I go to Cabelas and one is in stock I have to pick it up. IMHO it would be easily used on anything from a Gemsbock all the way to elephant. I seriously considered a Sabatti before I bought my 416 Ruger and regret that at the time there was so much concern with that brand.
    I have never seen an O/U double rifle but I'm sure it wouldn't be much different that an O/U shotgun which I've used shooting clays.
     

  3. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    I am fortunate to own and have owned both SxS and OU double rifles. I do not buy the old saw, that an OU double takes much longer to reload than a SxS. It isn't true of shotguns and it isn't true of double rifles. Yes the barrels drop a bit farther, but give me a break. I would love to see a timed four shot string. The English perfected the SxS rifle while the OU was far more common on the continent. The English rifles were used far more for DG in East Africa, but that doesn't make the concept inherently better. I do believe, that the OU rifle is much easier to scope than a SxS, and more likely to give good results at longer ranges than its SxS cousin when so scoped. But when done right, they are both wonderful things.
     
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  4. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

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    The O/U pattern is typically easier to regulate due to the fact that the barrels recoil in more or less the same plane. In a SxS, the right barrel recoils further to the right than the left does, to the left (for a right-handed shooter, that is). It's not a big deal, nothing that is insurmountable (obviously), but in this regard the O/U is more forgiving (which would most likely translate into greater ease in developing a load which will regulate with an old or second-hand rifle).

    Watch this video:



    Just jump ahead to 1 min, 20 sec.
     

  5. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    The time needed to open and close is not the problem with an O/U double rifles gape!

    It is almost impossible to reload both barrels simultaneously on a O/U double, and when taking on a cape buffalo or lion at very close range the first two shots often will not stop the fight. Having to reload the rifle one barrel at a time is just asking for a horn up the butt or a thorough mauling.

    Another thing is re-loading the rifle from an ammo belt is also very slow regardless of which double rifle you own. I carry two rounds for a re-load in the fixture on the back of my trigger hand and the trigger hand never leaves the rifle while re-loading. My left hand pulls those two rounds from the back of my trigger hand and are dropped into the chambers as shown in the picture seen above and to the left in this post. The trigger hand still on the pistol grip, and the left hand simply dropping the rounds into the chambers.
    With that method, I can get off four shots in just under 4 seconds flat. I doubt that could be done with an O/U nor could that be done by most with a S/S reloading when loading from a belt.

    O/U double rifles with mechanical single trigger systems and a selective feature are just OK, Taylor had a warning about single triggers, but double triggers are preferable IMO! Certainly one wants ejectors on any O/U double rifle chambered for a dangerous cartridge. having to flip the rifle to dump empties, and then reload one barrel at a time is not the best idea anyone ever had, also IMO, for what that is worth.
    (y)
     

  6. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    All double rifle when fired each barrel moves up, and away from the other barrel. If the rifle is properly regulated it will make no difference which right or left handed shooter shoots it. The fact is if the rifle is properly regulated by the maker and the sights are on target when each trigger is pulled the rifle will shoot a working composite group on the target.

    In an O/U the bottom barrel will move up less and more straight back than the top barrel, while the top barrel will recoil higher and less back than the bottom barrel. The working up a hand load to regulate in a S/S is easier than with an O/U in my experience.
     

  7. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    Duggaboy I genuinely respect your experience on this subject. I shoot many hundreds of rounds of shotgun ammunition from SxS's and OU's every year (addicted box bird shooter). I truly don't notice a difference in reload time - rifle or gun. Like anything, it is an acquired muscle skill. I am absolutely in your camp w/r to double triggers. I have made an exception with my S2 which seems to be totally reliable with one. That said, one of the virtues of a traditional double is having two different rifles on the same stock. As you note a mechanical trigger sort of allows that, but not very effectively.
     

  8. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker AH Enthusiast

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    Duggaboy
    I agree with you as well re: the double triggers, I think a second trigger is just another way to fool proof a bounce rifle.

    Re: the slower loading, I'm not real fast with either, and maybe it is slower to put 2 rounds in oriented vertically rather than horizontally. Can't say for sure. Sounds like you are pretty fast at it, bet you could load an o/u pretty fast too.
    As I have stated before, the spot that the double rifle absolutely shines in, is when you have a beast bearing down on you inside of 10 yards, and you take the shot and don't get a kill. You still have time to put another shot on target, without a reload, working the bolt etc that will absolutely be there waiting for you to send down range.
    I would guess nobody could reload any double fast enough (or a bolt gun) to save your life in the event of a close range charge.
    The heym double rifle video shows that way better than I can write it.
    Imagine if Ivan charters second shot does not kill that bull, could you have reloaded before he turned you into toe jam? If so my hat is off to you.
    I think that video shoes the value of the near instantaneous second shot, not the quick reloading of a double.
    Just my 2 cents
     

  9. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

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    A double is THE rifle for use against the heavies, especially in the thick stuff. One reason is a quick second shot, of course, but equally as important is a quick first shot (due to a well-fitting double's excellent handling characteristics). And, obviously, there's the whole matter of overall reliability.
     

  10. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Red Leg I too have owned and still own both O/U and S/S rifles and shotguns, and unless you are loading both one barrel at a time the O/U is definitely slower to reload than a S/S.

    I reload both barrels simultaneously on my S/S doubles and the O/U requires loading one barrel at a time because of it's stacked configuration.

    As posted earlier the picture above and to the left of this post it is plane to see the method of simultaneously loading both barrels on the S/S. This does not work on the O/U, and the reloading a shotgun, S/S or O/U, has nothing to do with proper speed loading of a double rifle!

    You say you would like to see a timed shoot! We have timed shoots every year with all types of rifles being shot simultaneously, with each shooter being individually timed by a digital timer, and the targets individually scored for accuracy.
    In this shoot the bolt rifles are loaded with one in the chamber and 3 down. The doubles are loaded with one in each chamber and the double must be reloaded after the first two are fired while the bolt and lever rifles have only to work the bolt or lever 3 times. The timing starts for each shooter when he fires his first shot, and stops when he fires shot four. The targets are then scored. The target is an 8 inch bull with a 2 inch ten ring. The highest possible score is 40 points if all four bullets het the two inch 10 ring. My last score was 36 out of the possible 40 points, and my time was four seconds flat. The rifle I was firing had a auto safety that had not been disabled which is not the same as all my other double rifles, and I forgot the auto safety, and tried to fire shot 3 with the safety on, and had to disengage the safety and pull the trigger again, and still fire all four shots in four seconds flat, with 36 points of a possible 40 for a perfect score. If I had not forgotten that safety, or been shooting at a charging lion that extra second could have earned me a bad mauling or even death. Fast reloading of a double rifle is certainly a skill one needs to learn.
    One more thing, not one lever or bolt rifle came in higher than fifth place out of 40 shooters. I took third place even with the safety screw up!
     
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  11. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    I no where stated or implied that a good double gun shooter can't beat a bolt for four shots - though maybe not for three :) What I have never seen is a timed string between experienced SxS and OU shooters.

    For an OU, I grip the second two rounds with the last three fingers of the left hand. A turn of the wrist and they drop right in. It is a pretty darn quick reload. And yes, they go in simultaneously. Also, most OU's will open somewhat quicker than most SxS's - even if they have a bit farther to drop (one of those generalities that obviously doesn't hold up with every gun - particularly, say, a Purdey self-opener - though it can be a bear to close). And of course many of these new Anson & Deeley doubles are so tight they need hydraulic assist for the first hundred rounds or more just to get them open at all.

    Please understand, I am not saying OU's are quicker, but I would expect a Teuton I know with his favorite flanged Sodia could give your lads a surprising run for their money.

    And you are correct. Auto safeties are mostly an abomination.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016

  12. BARSE

    BARSE New Member

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  13. 4 Bore

    4 Bore AH Senior Member

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    I actually got a chance to fire a fellow hunters Sabatti .450 Nitro Express Over Under Double Rifle a while back. It is the same caliber as the .450 NE Rigby Side by Side Double Rifle which l own . My humble observations are the following :
    1) It shoots Extremely accurate ( I'll go so far as to say that the top barrel was pin point accurate )
    2) The recoil is less noticeable than my .450 Nitro Express Rigby .
    3) My Rigby Gets so hot after two double shots in quick succession , that you couldn't possibly hold the gun for a third shot without suffering a burn on your gripping hand ( unless you wore a glove ) . Due the the construction of the Sabatti Over Under , l didn't face this issue with the Sabatti at all. I fired as many as 6 shots with that gun in under 4 minutes , without the gun getting hot .
    I agree with Mr. Red Leg. An Over under double rifle is definitely a gun to be taken seriously. As for reload fimes, from my experience , the over under and side by side are virtually identical.
    I will say one thing for a fact though : It would be FAR easier to teach a novice how to aim with a Over under double rifle than a side by side double rifle .
    Will l stop using a side by side double rifle and transition to an over under ? No. I have shot side by side double rifles to long to suddenly shift .
    Do l have a new found respect for the over under double rifle ? Hell , yes.
     

  14. TTundra

    TTundra AH Enthusiast

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    @4 Bore great and interesting feedback!
     
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  15. 4 Bore

    4 Bore AH Senior Member

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    I am glad l could chip in. Over Unders are rather Under rated In my opinion.
     

  16. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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  17. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    My daughter has a SxS and an O/U double in 6,5x57R.

    She takes the rifles into her dressing room and selects, what fits better to her actual clothing....and to the kind of hunting event....stalking with the SxS and driven hunt with the O/U....

    Women are strange.....


    :whistle:

    HWL
     
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  18. AZDAVE

    AZDAVE AH Elite

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    As long as she is going to the field with you all is good, time with children and family are precious.

    I keep looking at the 6.5 and 7x57 little doubles. One of these days I need to find one.
     
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  19. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I love little doubles......my favorite one is a O/U Stutzen! in 7x72R, made by Wilhelm Brenneke himself...

    HWL
     

  20. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Take note of the oddball calibers too. Americans don't like them and they discount them. a 7x65R is a VERY impressive upgrade to the 7x57R. (it's actually a rimmed 7x64 brenneke) There are a few good 6.5s too.

    And in the oldies, you can find nice 9.3x72R "deer rifles", 30-30s, 22 hornets, 303s, and 30-40 krags.

    Small bore double rifles can be a bargain.
     
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