Over under double rifle question

Voodooracer

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Hello everyone, I realize I'm probably beating a dead horse with this question but I hope not too much. My question is regarding the Sabatti big bore express over under double rifle specifically in 470 nitro express (ejector model). My question is regarding the accoutrements on the rifle. Anyone that owns one or has handled one what are the sights like and also from what I have read the 470 and 500 ne models have double triggers, is that correct? And the butt pad doesn't appear to be too spectacular so that would be changed. Originally I was looking at a cz 550 in 505 Gibbs for around the same money but the availability of ammo is not great (I'm not set up for reloading yet) and the cost of ammo in the mean time is over double that of 470. I can't afford a heym or the like at this point so this would be my first foray into doubles. $5,000 is about my upper limit of fun money right now haha. Would I be better off to go with the 505 or the Sabatti in 470? Recoil isn't a factor, asI'm a glutton for punishment haha. I had my fun with a 458 Lott and am ready to bump up some in power. I appreciate everyone's input.

Thanks,
Voodoo
 

johneracer

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I guess the first question would be why over/under and not side by side?
 

Voodooracer

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The price of $3,900 for the over under is attractive looking plus it's a unique setup, something you don't see everyday.
 

rookhawk

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Call Dan Morgan in Woodstock, VT. He's a great gunsmith. He has a Sabatti side by side in 470 right now. It has been shot less than 5 rounds. I think its in the $3000-$3500 range which is all a Sabatti is worth in my opinion.

An over under dangerous game double is not prudent. The gape is huge so it takes a long time to load. Any timing issue of the ejector will jam the gun due to brass stuck halfway out of the bottom barrel. An O/U is nearly unsaleable so when you decide the Sabatti isn't for you at least if you buy the SxS you can recapture your $3000 investment for the MSRP $7000 gun.

You just don't want these things on a DG double rifle:

O/U
Rimless cartridge
Single Trigger

When life and death is on the line the aforementioned will usher in the latter and fail to preserve the former.
 

Voodooracer

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Very good points, could you pm me his contact info? I'd definitely be interested in that for the price.
 

siml

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rookhawk

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Well, did you buy that 470 SxS?
 

Voodooracer

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Work has been very busy this week and I haven't yet, I will try to make arrangements for tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted!
 

1dirthawker

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Well
I. Disagree a bit with @rookhawk. I think an over under will do a fine job, just place your bullets well.
The gape on o/u is more but I can't believe that the extra 1/2 or 3/4" to open will cost u more than a tenth of a second more to either open or close.
If worried about timing (which could be an issue in an o/u or s/s) the get extractors only. Won't be as fast to reload tho.
I researched the subject a long time and ended up buying a Zoli 450-400. Am very happy with it!
Double triggers ARE important as is a flanged cartridge. That said some great rifle makers make a 375 h&h (past and present) and seem to be willing to bet their reputation on a rimless double rifles ability to work reliably.
John "pondoro" Taylor had good things to say about the o/u.
S/s are fine rifles, I just don't see them as inherently superior. Classic dg rifle, yep. Superior, nope.
The huge benefit of a double rifle is to be able to shoot two very fast shots, every time, without a reload in between at dangerous game. Watch the heym double rifle video on YouTube. Then tell me if you could see how an o/u would do different from a s/s.
 

Eddie P

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The advantage of a double, with separate triggers and locks etc. Is total redundancy.

Back in the day with fragile safety pins etc a double meant that there was no single failure that could stop the gun working in an emergancy. And the immediate action drill is simple top: pull the other trigger.
 

TTundra

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I'd be curious to hear what others opinions are of the O/U doubles that have actually used them. While I value all opinions, it would be nice to here some from someone who has owned both a SXS and O/U double. I saw those new Sabatti's come out and at $3900 they are tempting just for a trial and review. If anyone has a a good amount of time behind one, like the OP, I would love to read their responses as well.
 

AZDAVE

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I have a fair amount of time shooting doubles. I have owned and shot 7 different doubles, currently have 4. My chapuis 9.3x74 is my favourite rifle of any kind I own! I recently traded into a Verney Carron O/U 450/400. It shoots very well, the balance is great and I have worked up a nice load that regulates with 400gr Swift A-Frames, starting to work on a northfork CPS load. I grew up shooting SxS shotguns and am more use to that configuration. That being said when I concentrate on the sights as much as I was expecting there to be a big difference it just never showed itself and holes appeared in the paper where I was aiming. There is more gape but to be fair the difference in time to reload my VC vs the 405 Simson (Both ejector) is less than a second. If we really admit that at the distances we are shooting DG if you don't get the first 2 shots on a charge to do the job you aren't going to have time to reload. It was a important concern in the ivory hunting days when the hunter was in the middle of a herd and trying to shoot as many elephants as possible. On my cape buffalo hunt last year my first shot was at 22 the second was at 24 yards. and as fast as I could reload (I practice that allllotttt) got a going away 3rd shot at 72-75. If it had been a O/U the 3rd would have been 80ish. I am starting to plan a 2018 safari that will include lioness so I will have to make a decision on my 405 Win Simson SxS or the VC 450/400 O/U. So my suggestion is handle as many doubles as you can. Make sure that what ever you get FITS you and go hunting. the SxS vs O/U is not a big deal. TTundra I keep looking at the New Sabatti's and am having a hard time convincing myself not to try a 500NE. If I get the Ruger RMS 416 sold we will see:rolleyes:
 

1dirthawker

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AZ Dave,
I would be really interested in your load data results for the north fork bullets. I have a Zoli o/u 450-400 that's shoots very well with hornady factory Ammo. 400 gr at 2100 fps. I tried some hawk bullets, but was shooting them a bit too fast.
I have some nf softs and percussion pt softs. Have some softs loaded and ready to shoot, just need to get to the range.
I plan on using mine as a backup brown bear rifle and for moose/caribou, etc.

I do Agree on your take that the two shots without reloading are truly the most valuable at very close range and are the most valuable when things are close up and going to hell in a hand basket.
Please let me know what you discover
 

AZDAVE

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1dirthawker I sent you a PM
 

CTDolan

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Over the years Boss & Co. has made a handful is devastatingly gorgeous O/U double rifles on their justly famous action. One beauty of the O/U pattern is that the lower barrel sits rather deep in the bar, which means that it stresses the action rather less upon firing. Therefore, I recommend that the front trigger always fire the bottom barrel or, if fitted with a non-selective single trigger, that the first pull fire the bottom barrel (the second (third, really) the upper, of course).

As for the gape, in loading, it's a non-issue.
 

EDELWEISS

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I have both O/U and SxS guns. Yes the SxS's are more traditional, but the O/U's are easy to scope. Sabatti's are certainly affordable doubles. They are a good place to start and not a bad gun at all. For the price difference between Sabatti and the high end guns you can do a lot of hunting. That being said, I started with a Sabatti 9.3x74R SxS and sold it to buy a Merkel 470. I do love the Merkel but I miss the Sabatti.

Now for a second I'm gonna ask you to step away from how the barrels are configured and ask why you feel you have to have a 470?
 

CTDolan

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@EDELWEISS , my guess is that it's a matter of coveting firepower. In this regard I am every bit as guilty (however, were I in the market I'd very definitely be on the hunt for a 450/400, 3 inch case, in either O/U or SxS).
 

EDELWEISS

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I am by no means an expert on African cartridges; but I did read a book about it once;). I too, ended up choosing 470(Merkel), and sold my 9.3x74R Sabatti to buy it. The 470 seems or seemed the obvious choice for DG; but after a few years, I'm not sure. Mind you I'm not saying its a bad choice, just that its not the only of "most" obvious choice.

As most of my hunting wont be Dangerous Game and my "second" gun is a bolt action in 375H&H, I came to the conclusion that the BIG bore guns are rather limited--OF COURSE--but it goes farther than that, as some are more versatile than others.

When I bought my 470, I was talked out of a 500. I thought I wanted the biggest, because bigger was better (and Yeah, because size matters....). In that respect the 470 was probably a better choice over the 500--and it gave me an excuse to buy a 577NE... If I was starting from scratch, I might choose something in between 375H&H and 470. The 416s come to mind; but so to do the 450s. I might even look at the 405Win.

As I prepared for a September DG hunt, I realized 470 might not be the best choice; but didn't want to use a scoped bolt gun (a SxS just seems so much more traditional...). I searched in vain for a single shot 470, thinking that would be cool. I toyed with a new caliber; but couldn't bring myself to add another gun/cartridge that was gonna sit in the back of the vault till the next DG hunt. I finally decided, IF I was adding something new it should be 4 BORE....

My "issues" aside, Id look for a cartridge that was suitable and legal for DG and chambered in double guns and single shots and/or bolt guns.... Double Guns ARE cool; but being able to add optics is a real plus (BTW the O/U may be a winner with that).

Best
 

CTDolan

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From my understanding, the best rifle any client could bring is a scoped 375 H&H. Anything more is more than is needed (except, maybe, on elephant...the outfitter would need to make that call based upon conditions, etc.).

If one is set on a double (or single-loader), my vote goes to the 450/400 NE. It is near ideal (and was the "all-around", prior to the 375 H&H having burst upon the scene).

As for horsepower, I love it (who doesn't). In that regard my vote goes to the 577 NE. It has the history, and certainly the ability. Were I able, I'd have a Westley Richards drop-lock with standard house engraving (including gold inlaid lettering), in a two-trigger arrangement. Attached is an image of James Sutherland's WR 577, a rifle with some serious miles behind it!

IMG_6669.JPG
 

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