Optics Advice From Experienced Elephant Hunters or Professional Hunters

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
Just for a visual comparison I took a pictures from about 4yds away looking at a zebra mount through a Trijicon Accupoint 1-6x24 and a Docter reflex sight. I apologize for not getting better focus for the scope picture. It actually has the red triangle reticle. For really close shots the reflex sight is much better. There is nothing to block your view. The Docter sight also comes with a cover that when installed shuts off the unit to save the battery.

View attachment 381887View attachment 381888
Thanks for the reference photos and advice!
 

Professor Mawla

AH fanatic
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
783
Reaction score
2,236
Media
58
Articles
13
I personally have had very good success with a Leupold two by five variable telescopic sight on my .458 Winchester Magnum , especially for hunting rogue Asiatic jungle elephants in open terrain . When following up Asiatic jungle elephants into thick foliage , I find that open iron sights ( with wide V back-sights and an uncovered ivory bead fore sight ) are an absolutely indispensable setup whenever quick and instinctive close quarters shooting is required . They are far more natural and instinctive to employ . They also do not go out of setting when bumped , unlike a telescopic sight .
 

machinistbutler

Silver supporter
AH enthusiast
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
419
Reaction score
785
Location
Alberta Canada
Media
62
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Hunted
Canada Namibia
I have a VX6 and a Razor in 1-6. Nice scopes, great eye relief. The razor has a very bright dot.

One problem I have is on 1x, up close, very close, sight picture is good, but if I look out 50 meters or so the sight picture almost makes me seasick. It is odd and maybe it is just my eyes. If I have the power turned up a little it seems to go away.

I haven't had this on any higher variable power scopes. It might be just me but make sure you check them on the 1x setting and see if the view bothers you.
 

IvW

AH legend
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Messages
3,594
Reaction score
7,019
Location
South Africa
Media
62
Articles
3
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Member of
BASA, CHASA
Hunted
South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
For buff you want a scope(true 1x someting) for ele rather not....open sights or something like a aimpoint would be ideal...we talking 30 yards max on a typical ele hunt......
 

machinistbutler

Silver supporter
AH enthusiast
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
419
Reaction score
785
Location
Alberta Canada
Media
62
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Hunted
Canada Namibia
One more comment with regard to the front sight. I was quite happy with the cz550 front sight, until I used the red fiber optic sight on my AHR rifle. Wow is that bright. I think it is the necg one but can't remember for sure off the top of my head. It is awesome.
 

One Day...

Gold supporter
AH elite
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
1,306
Reaction score
3,516
Website
www.huntershillsafaris.co.za
Media
381
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Member of
PHASA
Hunted
Europe, America, Canada, Africa
@One Day... and everyone,

Thanks for all the great advice. After reading your recommendations, I was also able to get in touch with one of my employees who recently retired from the 7th Special Forces Group as a Sergeant Major in August after 20 years in with 9 years and 9 months deployed. He recommended the Trijicon RMR or the Docter red dot sight with the 3 MOA dot. He said the military had trouble with the EOTECH and discovered that it changed point of aim and impact with changes in temperature. Supposedly, the DoD is litigating this issue with EOTECH. He mentioned that the RMR or Docter worked great and that they are much faster and easier than lining up both the front and rear sights with iron sights in the heat of battle or a DG charge. Seems to make sense to me.

For the CZ 550 Safari Mag rifle, I think I found a QD mounting plate that attaches to the 19mm dovetail on the CZ bridge. This would allow me to use the red dot sight or a scope. Does this make sense to you guys? See below.

Yes Scott, this makes complete sense to me. If memory serves, this is one of the options we discussed :)

The EoTech issue was resolved 5 years ago...
Regarding the EoTech issue, this is true, but there is a major caveat, and the issue is now outdated. The major caveat regarding "thermal drift" on the pre-2016 EoTech sights, was that the only time this phenomenon might occur - "might" not "will" - was when the optic was kept in an environment of -40 degrees F or +122 degrees F for a prolonged period of time. This caveat seriously limits the real life implication of the issue, although I can think of how it could apply to military weapons in some specific circumstances... Additionally, EoTech sights manufactured after 2016 do not have this issue. EoTech ran a "no-question asked" replacement program for both military and civilian sales a few years ago.

In any case, owning both EoTech and Docter sights, I believe that the EoTech is essentially a battle sight, while the Docter is essentially a hunting (and/or handgun) sight. I have an EoTech EXPS2 on my CQB M4, but I put a Docter III on my .458 Lott.

Leica Tempus...
As I indicated in my previous post, you can mount the reflex sight on the forward bridge of the CZ action. Either Docter III or Trijicon RMR are great, but do not overlook the Leica Tempus. I find that having to disassemble the Docter III from its mounting plate when the battery needs to be changed, and having to re-check its sighting when done, is less than convenient. The same applies to the Trijicon RMR. The Leica Tempus finally addresses this issue with a side battery tray...

An added benefit is that the Leica has the same footprint as the Docter, so they use the same mounting adapters.

You can buy with confidence from Optics-Trade out of Europe. I use them regularly and they are reliable.

Dot size...
The dot size is a matter of personal preference, but keep in mind that we are not talking about long range or deliberate shooting here. Snap shooting is something you want to be able to do, without scrutinizing the sight to find the dot. I personally use a 3.5 MOA dot on the Docter and find it perfect for the intended short range purpose. Conversely, I have a 1 MOA dot on the EoTech, but this is only because I use it out to 200 yards or so, which I would not do with the Docter.

Enjoy your new sight :)
 
Last edited:

Tanks

AH elite
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
1,557
Reaction score
2,682
Media
48
... He recommended the Trijicon RMR or the Docter red dot sight with the 3 MOA dot. ...

I personally like the 1 MOA dot. Covers up a lot less of the animal at shooting distances. You might also want to use that sight for buffalo etc. at 50+ yards.
 

Philip Glass

Lifetime bronze benefactor
AH legend
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
4,056
Reaction score
6,914
Location
Texas
Website
www.dorper.net
Media
86
Articles
13
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
2
Asia/M.East
2
Member of
NRA, Life SCI, Life DSC, Life EWA
Hunted
RSA, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Cameroon, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Austria, Australia, TX, NM
You have two excellent scopes! Either one will be fine but maybe the 1.5x could be better. I too am partial to the red dot scopes.
 

mikecatt13

AH fanatic
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
567
Reaction score
704
Media
27
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
2
@One Day... and everyone,

Thanks for all the great advice. After reading your recommendations, I was also able to get in touch with one of my employees who recently retired from the 7th Special Forces Group as a Sergeant Major in August after 20 years in with 9 years and 9 months deployed. He recommended the Trijicon RMR or the Docter red dot sight with the 3 MOA dot. He said the military had trouble with the EOTECH and discovered that it changed point of aim and impact with changes in temperature. Supposedly, the DoD is litigating this issue with EOTECH. He mentioned that the RMR or Docter worked great and that they are much faster and easier than lining up both the front and rear sights with iron sights in the heat of battle or a DG charge. Seems to make sense to me.

For the CZ 550 Safari Mag rifle, I think I found a QD mounting plate that attaches to the 19mm dovetail on the CZ bridge. This would allow me to use the red dot sight or a scope. Does this make sense to you guys? See below.

I think that's a fine decision and you will like a reflex red dot. Even those very good with iron sights just wont be as fast and accurate as a red dot, nothing to line up just put dot on target and squeeze which translates to confidence in a DG situation

Dont overlook the Trijicon SRO, it has a bigger window than the RMR and I believe the battery can be changed without removing the sight.
 

mikecatt13

AH fanatic
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
567
Reaction score
704
Media
27
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
2
I personally like the 1 MOA dot. Covers up a lot less of the animal at shooting distances. You might also want to use that sight for buffalo etc. at 50+ yards.
I agree. I have several 1-2 MOA red dots and they are only 1 moa on a low brightness, when turned up they are bigger and faster for close range. The versatility is great. 1moa dot is what I use on my .223 competition rig that gets stretched out to 500-600 yards on the clock
 

npm352

AH enthusiast
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
426
Reaction score
647
Media
24
Articles
3
Hunting reports
Africa
3
USA/Canada
1
My optics advice is to not use optics. But I do not fall in the experienced ele hunter category as I only have gotten one.

With how quickly I had to change from a possible brain shot to a fleeing lung shot combined with how quickly the elephant disappeared into the brush, I wouldn't have been fast enough with a scope to kill it.
 

bruce moulds

AH legend
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
2,790
Reaction score
3,954
you need to ask yourself why you are slower with a scope than irons.
there will be an answer, as a scope is faster than irons.
bruce.
 

KMG Hunting Safaris

Sponsor
Since 2013
AH ambassador
Reviews
18
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
5,677
Reaction score
7,305
Location
Eastern Cape, South Africa
Website
www.huntsafaris.co.za
Media
1,153
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
5
Australia/NZ
1
Member of
DSC Life Member ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
Hunted
South Africa, Namibia, New Zealand, USA, Canada
Even those very good with iron sights just wont be as fast and accurate as a red dot, nothing to line up just put dot on target and squeeze which translates to confidence in a DG situation

@Scott CWO , This right here. It took me a couple of years to make the decision of going with the RMR on my double rifle. I did not want to lose the romance of the classic double look. What would the look of my rifle help, when I'm 6ft under?
As has been mentioned, where that red dot falls, is your POI. Even if you do not shoulder your rifle 100% correctly, lets say in a hurried or stressed situation, when that Red Dot finds its mark, its good to go.
On the mount, there would be no need to put it on a QD mount, since the Red dot is faster target acquisition than open sights for most shooter, and this would negate the entire reason for having it on a QD mount. My gunsmith made a mount from scratch.

The Docter is a high quality piece of equipment and also mounts lower than the Trijicon. I have recently sold the Trijicon, simply to replace it with the Docter in order to achieve a lower mounted site on my DR.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
One more comment with regard to the front sight. I was quite happy with the cz550 front sight, until I used the red fiber optic sight on my AHR rifle. Wow is that bright. I think it is the necg one but can't remember for sure off the top of my head. It is awesome.
Yes I have a fiber optic front sight due to the AMR #2 upgrade
 

Newby

AH veteran
Joined
Oct 22, 2019
Messages
138
Reaction score
253
Location
Australia
Hunted
Australia, New Zealand, North America, UK, Central Asia
I think that's a fine decision and you will like a reflex red dot. Even those very good with iron sights just wont be as fast and accurate as a red dot, nothing to line up just put dot on target and squeeze which translates to confidence in a DG situation
Definitely.

Any one who doubts it should simply try one. Just shoulder the rifle and look, and belief will be immediate.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
I personally like the 1 MOA dot. Covers up a lot less of the animal at shooting distances. You might also want to use that sight for buffalo etc. at 50+ yards.
For close range, my friend said he doesn’t like to search for the dot at all and prefers the 3 MOA dot. I’m going to specialize my gear on this Botswana safari for elephant.

Having shot 3 buffalo already, I’m not hunting them any longer. My Zambia 2022 hunt is for sitatunga, roan, all the lechwe species, puku, etc... and perhaps a lion if the lion hunter scheduled right before me isn’t successful. I will use two scoped rifles for that trip.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
@Scott CWO , This right here. It took me a couple of years to make the decision of going with the RMR on my double rifle. I did not want to lose the romance of the classic double look. What would the look of my rifle help, when I'm 6ft under?
As has been mentioned, where that red dot falls, is your POI. Even if you do not shoulder your rifle 100% correctly, lets say in a hurried or stressed situation, when that Red Dot finds its mark, its good to go.
On the mount, there would be no need to put it on a QD mount, since the Red dot is faster target acquisition than open sights for most shooter, and this would negate the entire reason for having it on a QD mount. My gunsmith made a mount from scratch.

The Docter is a high quality piece of equipment and also mounts lower than the Trijicon. I have recently sold the Trijicon, simply to replace it with the Docter in order to achieve a lower mounted site on my DR.
Yes, my friend said the same about the dot in the heat of battle or a charge. He said he even had a side angle mounted red dot on his sniper rifle for unexpected close range issues and this allowed him to keep his scope at 25 power at all times.

As for a fixed mount, I would agree in your circumstances but my Lott is used for other hunts where I need a scope so I just figured that a QD mount would allow me to take it off and switch it out or use it again without having to re-sight each time.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
Yes Scott, this makes complete sense to me. If memory serves, this is one of the options we discussed :)

The EoTech issue was resolved 5 years ago...
Regarding the EoTech issue, this is true, but there is a major caveat, and the issue is now outdated. The major caveat regarding "thermal drift" on the pre-2016 EoTech sights, was that the only time this phenomenon might occur - "might" not "will" - was when the optic was kept in an environment of -40 degrees F or +122 degrees F for a prolonged period of time. This caveat seriously limits the real life implication of the issue, although I can think of how it could apply to military weapons in some specific circumstances... Additionally, EoTech sights manufactured after 2016 do not have this issue. EoTech ran a "no-question asked" replacement program for both military and civilian sales a few years ago.

In any case, owning both EoTech and Docter sights, I believe that the EoTech is essentially a battle sight, while the Docter is essentially a hunting (and/or handgun) sight. I have an EoTech EXPS2 on my CQB M4, but I put a Docter III on my .458 Lott.

Leica Tempus...
As I indicated in my previous post, you can mount the reflex sight on the forward bridge of the CZ action. Either Docter III or Trijicon RMR are great, but do not overlook the Leica Tempus. I find that having to disassemble the Docter III from its mounting plate when the battery needs to be changed, and having to re-check its sighting when done, is less than convenient. The same applies to the Trijicon RMR. The Leica Tempus finally addresses this issue with a side battery tray...

An added benefit is that the Leica has the same footprint as the Docter, so they use the same mounting adapters.

You can buy with confidence from Optics-Trade out of Europe. I use them regularly and they are reliable.

Dot size...
The dot size is a matter of personal preference, but keep in mind that we are not talking about long range or deliberate shooting here. Snap shooting is something you want to be able to do, without scrutinizing the sight to find the dot. I personally use a 3.5 MOA dot on the Docter and find it perfect for the intended short range purpose. Conversely, I have a 1 MOA dot on the EoTech, but this is only because I use it out to 200 yards or so, which I would not do with the Docter.

Enjoy your new sight :)
My friend said the EOTECH temperature issues weren’t at the extreme ranges you mention and also said he had trouble with the springs and mirrors. He probably used a pre 2016 model and likely just didn’t trust them anymore with his life on the line.

I will look into the Leica but honestly, their customer service stinks compared to the other quality optics companies. However, I am enrolled in their outfitter discount program.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
2,173
Media
79
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
Yes Scott, this makes complete sense to me. If memory serves, this is one of the options we discussed :)

The EoTech issue was resolved 5 years ago...
Regarding the EoTech issue, this is true, but there is a major caveat, and the issue is now outdated. The major caveat regarding "thermal drift" on the pre-2016 EoTech sights, was that the only time this phenomenon might occur - "might" not "will" - was when the optic was kept in an environment of -40 degrees F or +122 degrees F for a prolonged period of time. This caveat seriously limits the real life implication of the issue, although I can think of how it could apply to military weapons in some specific circumstances... Additionally, EoTech sights manufactured after 2016 do not have this issue. EoTech ran a "no-question asked" replacement program for both military and civilian sales a few years ago.

In any case, owning both EoTech and Docter sights, I believe that the EoTech is essentially a battle sight, while the Docter is essentially a hunting (and/or handgun) sight. I have an EoTech EXPS2 on my CQB M4, but I put a Docter III on my .458 Lott.

Leica Tempus...
As I indicated in my previous post, you can mount the reflex sight on the forward bridge of the CZ action. Either Docter III or Trijicon RMR are great, but do not overlook the Leica Tempus. I find that having to disassemble the Docter III from its mounting plate when the battery needs to be changed, and having to re-check its sighting when done, is less than convenient. The same applies to the Trijicon RMR. The Leica Tempus finally addresses this issue with a side battery tray...

An added benefit is that the Leica has the same footprint as the Docter, so they use the same mounting adapters.

You can buy with confidence from Optics-Trade out of Europe. I use them regularly and they are reliable.

Dot size...
The dot size is a matter of personal preference, but keep in mind that we are not talking about long range or deliberate shooting here. Snap shooting is something you want to be able to do, without scrutinizing the sight to find the dot. I personally use a 3.5 MOA dot on the Docter and find it perfect for the intended short range purpose. Conversely, I have a 1 MOA dot on the EoTech, but this is only because I use it out to 200 yards or so, which I would not do with the Docter.

Enjoy your new sight :)
@One Day... what do you think of the 2.0 MOA dot on the Leica? Seems it would be a good compromise? Big enough for close shooting and small enough for 100 yards if I was to ever use it for something besides elephant?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
37,402
Messages
713,553
Members
66,721
Latest member
Duyen
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

degoins wrote on Treemantwo's profile.
I have a like new VC .450 I might part with. I had it built in 2013 and it has served me well. Also have a VC fitted leather trunk case for it along with the plastic case it came with. I'll take 14000 for all of it.
Matt W wrote on Jody's profile.
Hi Jody,
I have been looking for ideas on the best way to display my European mounts from Africa. I came across some of your shield work and was wondering if you would be willing to make one for me? If so, please let me know the cost. I like the shield with the two spears that you built for a member years ago. Thanks.
cal pappas wrote on Mnelson2's profile.
Nelson. Is this message a PM format. I want to send you my email, but don't know if this is the cirrect way to do it. I'm at <pappas@mtaonline.net> Send me an email with your phone and I will call you about a skull I have. I went to school in Boston and am from Bernardston in the west part of the state. Moved to Alaska in 1984 adn never looked back.
BeeMaa wrote on Justbryan's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. He was a pleasure to do business with.
BeeMaa wrote on 375Fox's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. Was a pleasure to do business with.
 
Top