Need some solid dad advice from experienced hunter dads

[Longwalker]

I'm not in your situation and I don't know you or your family. But I have instructed hundreds of students in my hunter education classes over the past 30 years or so. I admire and encourage you for passing your enthusiasm for hunting to your children. But I will also caution you about pushing them too fast, at such a young age, perhaps before they are really ready for the physical and emotional complexity that hunting large game offers. I wish you all the best, but worry that such young and small new hunters might have some experiences that will turn them off and that they may resent you for afterwards. I've seen it too many times. Sorry for my negativity, this is not meant to be discouraging, just to encourage you to be patient and be sure that they are really ready. I suggest a few years hunting small game like squirrel and rabbit and birds with a .22 or similar tiny gun before you expose them to center fire rifles and hoofed animals. I will take no offence if you disagree, my advice is only offered with the best intentions for your children. I hope you have many wonderful experiences hunting together.

 

[rookhawk]

I'm not in your situation and I don't know you or your family. But I have instructed hundreds of students in my hunter education classes over the past 30 years or so. I admire and encourage you for passing your enthusiasm for hunting to your children. But I will also caution you about pushing them too fast, at such a young age, perhaps before they are really ready for the physical and emotional complexity that hunting large game offers. I wish you all the best, but worry that such young and small new hunters might have some experiences that will turn them off and that they may resent you for afterwards. I've seen it too many times. Sorry for my negativity, this is not meant to be discouraging, just to encourage you to be patient and be sure that they are really ready. I suggest a few years hunting small game like squirrel and rabbit and birds with a .22 or similar tiny gun before you expose them to center fire rifles and hoofed animals. I will take no offense if you disagree, my advice is only offered with the best intentions for your children. I hope you have many wonderful experiences hunting together.

@Longwalker Absolutely no offense taken by your suggestions or advice. The emotional wellbeing of my kids is always of primary importance and complex ethics, life and death, all require a lot of discussion and may not be intellectually appropriate for small children. I know that I would not consider my two sons doing the same activities at present for the reasons you describe.

For a variety of reasons, your fears are not as relevant as usually the case for my 7 year old due to her life circumstances and emotional maturity. She is a cancer survivor and has faced her life with a level of poise and confidence that was well beyond her years. At age 4 she was calling her grandmother to demand that they both get chemo together as grandma had given up on the struggle and yet my daughter was showing up every week to be infused. (now both are in remission) She was also the child that was reading natural history books at an age of 3. Life and death, nature and the facts of life have been thrust upon her at a very early age, some by her decision and some by fate.

Everybody wants to think there kids are "special" and "unique" and surely every child is to their own parents. Dare I say, of my three children who I love equally, she is the one that is most unique by her personal interests and maturity.

I sincerely thank you for your post because it was heartfelt and showed care and concern for a young child. I took it as such and it was appreciated.

 

[James Cook]

started my son out with 22 rimfire to teach him to shoulder the gun, use a scope, squeeze the trigger, not worry about recoil, etc. when he was ready to move to big game, 243 was the caliber. the 100 grain is lethal on deer when put in the boiler room - and will little recoil. he shoots large caliber and magnum rifles today and is a great shot.

 

[HuntingGold]

This is my youngest shooting the snot out of our "sage rats" or ground squirrels with a 17 HMR. I think this photo was taken before her second trip to Africa where she has done very well with her shooting.

If you and your daughter wish to come out to Southern Oregon to shoot these, please send me a PM and I will hook you up. The squirrels are absolute pests and the farm owner wants them gone. It is normal to shoot hundreds of rounds a day. My average this year is firing a shot a minute, some minutes with multiple shots and other minutes... loading!

The offer stands for anyone with kids. The best shooting occurs on sunny days in March, April, May, and June. March is my favorite as the alfalfa has not grown up and the squirrels are easy to see. After that depends on when the alfalfa is cut.

 

[rookhawk]

@HuntingGold I cringed a bit when I read your note as I'm not a big fan of typical varmint hunters. I was relieved and grateful when I saw the photos to see that you collected and disposed of the animals killed so they do not lie where they died causing lead toxicity to other wildlife. Thank you!

So happy to see your young huntress doing so well. Quality time.

 

[HuntingGold]

I don't want to come off as a hero here... I only collected a few for the photo. Depending on the ammo used, many will make it a few steps to their burrows to perish. Sorry to let you down brother.

 

[rookhawk]

I don't want to come off as a hero here... I only collected a few for the photo. Depending on the ammo used, many will make it a few steps to their burrows to perish. Sorry to let you down brother.

I don't mean to be preachy, its not me you let down. It's our kids. The data is sadly, very sound. The liberals have us by the balls. Lead in caracasses left in the field shows up in the crop (gizzard) of dead hawks, eagles, and endangered condors. Because we don't make it a $10,000 fine for leaving a dead varmint out or a deer gut pile, many/most leave them. They then parade the golden eagles that are dying of lead toxicity on the evening news. They then parade the <300 California condors out and explain the decades and millions spent to save them, only to have 40+ found to have toxic lead levels. Then the pan to the scientist that did necropsy on the dead animals and they explain how the granular striation of the lead proves it was refined lead with a bit of antimony in it proving it was absolutely from a sportsman's gun.

Net result, bans on lead. 25 bismuth shotgun shells cost $80. Non-lead rifle projectiles are quite expensive as well. The ban that has come and will come nationally is going to end hunting for the vast majority, just as the left had hoped. It's the one time data is sadly on their side.

Not trying to thread-jack. Happy for your special little girl doing some great outdoor activities in a meaningful way. Just wish you'd clean up every single animal that is shot. I don't care if they carry plague, ticks, lymes, whatever. Don't shoot if you can't clean please.

 

[HuntingGold]

It's your post, I'll bite my lip and sign off.

 

[rookhawk]

It's your post, I'll bite my lip and sign off.

Lets make this thread about celebrating kids doing hunting stuff. Happy to meet you on friendly terms on a different thread if you want to create one about varmint hunting and toxicity studies.

Regardless, really happy you get to spend quality time afield with your children. It will pay lifelong dividends for them and the memories will be your fondest.

 

[HuntingGold]

Lets make this thread about celebrating kids doing hunting stuff. Happy to meet you on friendly terms on a different thread if you want to create one about varmint hunting and toxicity studies.

Regardless, really happy you get to spend quality time afield with your children. It will pay lifelong dividends for them and the memories will be your fondest.

That's why I am signing off
No need to ruin this thread. You are doing well.
Randy

 

[BigKnuckle]

There's nothing wrong with a .243. However, it is a bit under-powered for larger game. I know, I know, I know - shot placement is everything; but, in all my years of hunting and all the animals I've taken, I may have gotten something close to the shot I actually wanted one time. Hunting and bench shooting are not the same thing and no matter how much one prepares and practices at the range, when an animal presents itself in the field, you'll usually be unprepared, your heart will be pounding, your eyes will be throbbing and your breathing will become erratic. This is especially true of younger hunters with less experience. Usually it comes down to taking advantage of an opportunity quickly in less than perfect conditions and in that case, I want a more powerful round.

If it were my daughter, I would probably lean toward starting her with a .22 until she gets comfortable with shooting anything at all. She can learn a lot from a .22 such as proper form, safety and how to manage breathing when shooting. Then, move up to a good varmint round like .223 or .243 but I think my goal for their first hunting rifle would probably be a 7mm-08, ultimately moving up to a .308. If you're only looking to get one gun, then maybe the .243 is ok. But if I'm only going to have one gun, I'd prefer something a little more versatile like a .308.

Just my 2 cents. My kids aren't old enough yet, but I have a .223, a 7mm-08 and a .308 that I'll be starting them with after we shoot the .22 for long enough to get comfortable with the process of shooting safely to think about shooting to hunt.

 

[rookhawk]

My daughter did really well last month on her hunt. I was an observer and there were three hunters, two of my daughter's physicians and her.

Physician #1 brought a 7x57 but he forgot to tighten the scope so it fell off. I think he then borrowed a 30-06 and took a shot or two that were not perfect and it took many minutes for the axis deer he shot to expire and a fair amount of meat damage.

Physician #2 brought a 30-06 Tikka T3 and nosler ballistic tips and got two deer. One deer was shot texas heartshot style almost, extreme quartering away. After a long chase and a 2nd shot, that animal went down although it took awhile to die. I helped dress it and there was a fair amount of meat loss from the first shot that ruined the ham. On the second deer the shot was too far back and stomach contents contaminated some meat and the tenderloin had to be discarded.

My daughter took two deer. One a red hind, the other a large whitetail doe. (can't remember if I'm repeating myself or not?) Both with the .243 Winchester using diminished loads from the Hornady "CustomLite" line. 87gr or 90gr SST bullets. Hornady is emphatic that while these are mild recoiling, they are not to be used past 200 yards as there is too much energy loss. First kill was a single shot at 91 yards on a hind. Dead right there. I think it made perhaps one step. My daughter had the hind in her sight for at least 7 minutes by the clock as it was crossing back and forth in a herd of 10. We didn't want to harm another deer, kill a spike, or not take out the right deer, so she just kept tracking and we kept saying "get ready" and then "don't shoot" over and over again. With full self control and the patience of a grandfather, my 7 year old waited for the perfect shot and took her deer perfectly.

The second deer was on the final morning of the hunt, a mature whitetail doe. We kept observing the deer for perhaps 20 minutes to learn the relationships between deer. We determined one mature doe did not have any yearlings as we could eventually figure out which kids belonged to which parent. It was decided to take that deer which she did at I believe 67 yards. No movement. The high heart-lung crossing shot resulted in a dead right there phenomenon.

My daughter has made a lot of meals with the venison so far but a few highlights:

Persian Ground Kabobs

Indian Biryani

Classic American/Italian meatballs for a meatball sub sandwich

Mauritius Steak Kabobs in Fish Sauce, Oyster Sauce and Thyme cooked Medium Rare under extreme high heat on a BGE grill

She's a great cook too! Both were delicious but the quality of the Hind is much closer to elk than to whitetail. Strongly recommended.

My conclusion from the hunt is that women are much easier to train into being excellent hunters than are men. They do not get buck fever, they follow instructions and they are more sensitive to animal suffering by their nature so they wait for the better shot. She had a great time on the hunt and we can't wait to go back again with the family in a year or so. Port Sullivan Ranch is an ethical operation run by a beautiful family in Port Sullivan, TX. While high fence ranches aren't my cup of tea for hunting, I found it to be a wonderful place for family and friends to get together and a great set up for children to hunt. The costs are little more than the price of taking the family to the marriot or waterpark including meals and you get to come away with some nice meat for the freezer. Or put another way, for the reasonable price per pound for quality game at a butcher you can take your kids/grandkids hunting for about even money.

Robert and Angela Lassell at Port Sullivan Ranch in Texas do an amazing job.

Just realizing now this post is pretty much a repeat. Sorry about the redundancy. Forgot I had posted a brief summary already. In short, the .243 was plenty of gun for deer. I would have zero problems killing a broadside elk bull or anything smaller inside 75 yards with the gun and this ammo. Same for a Kudu inside 100 yards. We'll shift to a 6.5x55 or 7x57 when she is taller/stronger in the coming years just to extend the shooting distances on non-dangerous game out to 200-250 yards.

 

[Mike B]

My 9 year old has saved money up (and I helped). He has a Savage .22, a .243 Ruger American, and just recently bought a mossberg super bantam 20ga. He's in 4H precision. .22 shooting now as well. Good shot, but the last 2 trips we didn't see anything so he has yet to lay anything down. We don't reload (yet) but he's been shooting Hornady low recoil for practice and Superformance is his game load. My 7 year old just bought a Henry level action .22 (he's left handed).

 

[Shootist43]

Time has a great effect on all kids. They grow both physically and mentally. By the time you leave for Africa she will probably be able to handle "normal" loads. In the mean time she can keep your freezer stocked with venison! Enjoy my friend, our kids are only young once!

 

[Albert GRANT]

Congratulations on your daughters success! Glad she was able to make that great accomplishment. You have lived my nightmare, I'm truly happy your family had a positive outcome. I live in fear of hearing that news with one of my boys. I don't think I would handle that news well. Hopefully I never have to know. Here's to a long happy life for your little huntress!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Gentlemen,

My kids have not yet been shooting but my eldest is quickly meeting the challenges laid before her to reach that goal. (e.g. must pass hunter ed)

I have three kids and the eldest is a very unique, very mature 7 year old. I'm trying to figure out what I can buy her as a first rifle that won't be worthless rubble in 5 years and that will have lasting power throughout her life. (realizing she'll need a new stock someday)

Any thoughts on this plan for her? I was thinking of a pre-64 Win Model 70 featherweight in .243 that has been "ruined" by collector standards. A great gun that has been drilled/tapped, that has had the stock cut, refinished or otherwise molested. It looks like these non-collectors fetch around $700-$750 with excellent bores. Start her with a 12" stock and a thin efficient recoil pad and grow her into a 1"+ orange silvers pad out past 13" later?

Please give me some honest dad advice here. Is this cartridge the right first choice? If yes, what bullet weight / type is appropriate for hunting Africa with it?

Any other ideas out there for a lifelong rifle to start a child with? She's 4'2", 62lbs at present and we'll probably be on a safari together within 18 months and she'll probably be 4'8", 75lbs by then.

Thank you for some mentoring. While I'm an experienced gun collector, I'm not an experienced dad.

@rookhawk
Mate I would steer clear of both the w Winchester and the 243.
I would go for the savage with the adjustable stock that can bet tailored for youth and w I'll grow as your child grows.
If you are a reloader I would go for the 7 08 or 308 and down load it and load it up as she grows. Far better calibers for her PG hunt than the 243..
My 14 year old son used a Howa 308 with 150grain accubonds and shot everything with it including Burchells zebra and Oryx.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

243 is a fine round but I must put my two cents in for a .308

If you hand-load, you can down load the .308, to have the same felt recoil as full charged 243. If you don't hand load, several companies load light rounds now.
You can find recoil calculators on line and plug in your data to see what the felt recoil is.

Reduced Recoil load formula's can also be found online.

One your girl has grown larger, she can shoot the same rifle with full strength loads. As she grows up, she will continue to have the same familiarity with that gun; it will be like an old friend to her.

I bought both my daughters .308's and have followed this strategy. The load I used was one that utilized 125 grain bullets and H4895 powder. Two mule deer shot with down-loaded .308's

View attachment 163596 View attachment 163597

@hunting Gold
Exactly what I did with my son.
The beauty of H4895 is you can use 60% of max charge without any problems. The 308 is a very versatile round. You made a wise and good choices for your kids
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Thank you all for your great advice and encouragement. She's a special girl and is uniquely mature for her young years. She was literate at age 4 and spent her days reading a lot of natural history books. Now she reads 3-4 a day and usually finishes up the evening in bed with a field guide from the Audubon series just to keep herself sharp. I'm not certain my boys will be ready to start shooting at 7 and hunting at near age 9 but she certainly is intellectually and responsibly similar to a 12 year old.

The issue will be finding something that fits her young frame that doesn't kick and will still suffice for safari conditions. I appreciated the .243 pre-64 featherweight support/amens so I've got a bid on GB on one that is properly "ruined" (shortened stock and extra drill/tap holes) which brings the price down to the right level. Liked the Mannlicher suggestion with a nice scope and claw mounts too. I saw a gorgeous one of the latter with all the trimmings for $1200 (hensoldt scope and claw mounts) awhile back but it was a .270 and I thought that would be too much gun for the kids as they grow up. Once they mature, they can shoot the same stuff dad does: 6.5x55 and 7x57 are my go-to calibers for everything up to humpback whale and wooly mammoth. I'm concerned for recoil at present because felt recoil of the latter two favorites is 11-13 foot pounds and I thought something a bit lighter would be preferred for a child presently 62lbs who will probably weigh 75lbs by the time safari comes along.

Regrettably I long ago sold all my benches, presses, dies and other reloading gear so I'm a factory ammo guy now. I'd wish I knew someone I trusted to make reduced loads to get them started off right.

One more tangent to ask: What do you think about a vintage/used/refurbished Schmidt & Bender 6 power Klassic fixed power scope for a child's use at the range and on safari? They seem to go on ebay for around $225 and thought that might be the best glass for the money but not sure if there should be a better plan for a .243 rifle under Africa 75-150 yard conditions with a kid as the operator?

Really appreciate all the sage advice from all of you, I'm out of my element on little calibers and little people.

@rookhawk
I think that's a great idea. Mount it nice and low. A 6 power is more than enough for medium game out to any sane distance and smaller game to 200 yards.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Rookhawk,

I have 4 daughters, all in their 20s now. When I started them off shooting, like most, it was with a 22LR. Inexpensive to shoot and no recoil or report to speak of so they wouldn't flinch. I stumbled across a Ruger M77 MkII in 7.62x39 and it made for a nice step up from the 22LR. The 7.62x39 at the time was about 10 cents a round. I had the same rifle in 7mm mag and the cost was over $1 per round and lots of recoil for a young shooter. In ammo costs savings alone, the 7.62x39 paid for itself. I ended up giving that rifle to my elf guide in Montana who had 3 young boys. I've since bought a Ruger Predator (slightly heavier than normal barrel) in 223. Again, low cost and low recoil were the drivers. My youngest daughter used this rifle to get comfortable with shooting off of sticks. We trained with a 223 and a 270. Went to Africa and she shoot 300 WM and 7mm mags with no problems.

One gun I'd suggest you look at is the Ruger Hawkeye Compact, with 12.5" LOP and 16.5" barrel length. It comes in 223, 243, 308 and 7mm-08.

http://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyeCompact/models.html
http://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyeLaminateCompact/models.html

@375Ruger fan
I wouldn't inflict any young person with a 16.5 inch barrel in anything bigger than a 22 lr. The muzzle blast in these things even in 223 and 243 is horrid. Even with earplugs and ear muffs combined the noise is still shocking. The minimum I would like to is 20 or 22 inches is even better.
My son used to complain about the noise of his 308 with a 22inch barrel in the field but is now used to it. We have people use 18 inch barrels at the range and they are noisier than my Whelen with a muzzle brake.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Desperatezulu that wild cat sure sounds interesting! I have my first official grandchild coming in April... maybe it's time to put a gun together!

PS. I just looked up the 6 X 45. what a neat little cartridge. I have an absolute ton of .223 brass that I can use to neck up. I think I have found a new project!

@HuntingGold
Go one even better the 25 Sharp. A 223 necked to 25. An even better cartridge and can drive an 87grain at almost 250 Savage velocities.
Bob