Need some solid dad advice from experienced hunter dads

[Shootist43]

My choice for my grandkids is an 1896 Swedish Mauser. I purchased a partially sporterized one for $300.00. I had the stock cut down, added a good recoil pad, a Timney Trigger and Safety and finally a muzzle brake. The 6.5 x 55 will take Any size white tailed deer or hog in the states. When the grandkids out grow the "kids gun" they will be given a full-sized Swedish Mauser. My two oldest grandsons are already using their own Swedish Mausers. I took my Swedish Mauser to Africa last August intending to use it for some of the smaller plains game. I never felt as though I'd left something on the table.

 

[rookhawk]

Problem solving dad's,

Thanks for all your thoughts and input. I did find that hornady makes a 243 reduced load so I'm going to check that further if the auction for the 243 is successful. I spoke to my stocker and he was delighted to take on the job of reshaping and reducing the stock to youth dimensions.

As soon as able, the kids will all use dad's guns as I'm a recoil averse person anyway. I have plenty of 6.5x55 and 7x57 rifles as do I have 375, 404 and 450/400. I basically have the mildest recoil caliber in each weapon class but I don't varmint hunt and thus don't have the entry level gun smaller than a Swede.

As to using a suppressor, they are illegal in my state so that's not an option although the logic of the suggestion by several people was sound.

I considered the Savage that several have mentioned as I know they are good. I just figured for a slight increase I could get a pre-64 with collectibility issues and use that as a basis for a nice rifle with premium glass for under $1000 if I play my cards right.

Any objections to a Schmidt and Bender fixed 6x scope for a youth .243 rifle? I keep seeing 1980s-1990s examples on eBay for around $200 and they seem like an enticing deal. I worry it may be too much magnification for the 243 but can't think of any used glass of excellent quality in the fixed 4x range or 2-7x / 3-9x power. Spending $600 on swaro 3-9x is not appropriate for the budget.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

Started my daughter on a 7mm-08 but had to go to a .243 because of recoil. It is a Vanguard Youth/Compact and she still uses it. Even at 5'7" now it still fits her better than a full size stock. The vast majority of females need a higher comb than males. Hers has a comb raiser on it. If they were around at the time I'd have bought her a Lady Savage or Vanguard Camilla since the stock is specifically designed for females.

 

[Shootist43]

I forgot to mention that I put "old" Weaver K 4 (s) on the "kids" gun as well as on each of the rifles to be given to the grandkids. The El Passo Weavers came with a number of different reticles, none of which appealed to me. To correct that situation I sent several off to Iron-Site and had Duplex reticles installed. While the glass in the old Weavers may not be up to par with newer scopes the few minutes given up at daylight and dusk are a small consideration given the rest of the scopes attributes.

 

[billc]

The 6x maybe fine for target shooting but to much scope for a new hunter to find game with to make the shot. If your keeping the shooting to 150 yd or under a good 3x9 would be better I think. I have seen to many guys with to much scope power to be able to pick out game in the bush. Normally happens when they turn the scope up to zoom in and forget to put it back down. I think the 6x will just be to much sometimes and to much for a new hunter.

 

[rookhawk]

Update: I spent too much but hey, it's for Daddy's little girl and I only have one of those.

Bought this: http://www.cabelas.com/product/winchester-model-70-featherwieght-pre-64-243-win-/1979496.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=/catalog/search/?N=&No=80&Ntk=GunLibrary&Ntt=Winchester%2B243&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&WTz_st=&WTz_stype=SP&form_state=searchForm&recordsPerPage=20&search=Winchester%2B243&searchTypeByFilter=GunLibrary&x=0&y=0&Ntt=Winchester+243

Paid $950 delivered.

Needs $15 Lyman 16b folding rear sight.

I'm going to have the stock ruined (heresy) by having it cut down to 11.25" of wood and I'm going to have it reshape to English dimensions with an ebony grip cap and a good oil finish. I'm going to have three red NECG pads fitted to the quick release mount in .75", 1", 1.25" lengths. Will also get talley signature bases and QD rings.

Total cost with good glass all-in will be $1500 which is a bit excessive, but hopefully heirs will be using this to take kids hunting for another century after I've assumed room temperature.

Last mission: find a nice piece of Austrian-German glass in the 4x range with good coatings and good eye relief. (Or a nice 2-7 if I can find)

 

[enysse]

I would just put a Leupold scope on there. I bought a VX 2 4-12 40mm for my 7x57 and it works like a charm. I got mine for $250.

 

[Clayton]

 

[rookhawk]

Update:

I found the attached reference online. It is the basis for geometry measurements for youth stock rifles.

The model 70 has been altered to British dimensions. Quick removable pads in 5/8" and 1-1/2" have been fitted. Overall LOP goes 11-1/4" to 12-3/4" now. Added a prince of wales grip and removed the hideous comb.

Acquired (rather reasonably) a 30mm tube Schmidt and Bender 1.25-4x straight tube scope and some Talley QD rings

The gun is now a fully functional stalking rifle for a child or woman. Waiting for the oil to dry, kids take hunter's ed next week, then off to the range for a few weeks of practice, then my daughter and I will go on our first big game hunt together!

 

[Buckdog]

congrats on the gun and really nice to see you bring your kids into the sport! I brought in my kids, nieces, nephews, son in law etc. I have always done as you choose the gun to fit the age and stature of the new shooter. I never wanted them to have a bad experience starting out with recoil etc. take the time teach them right and when ready take them hunting. as they developed we have a tradition that if I teach them after rookie season if they want to continue to hunt my properties they must do head shot to prove their worth. may seem harsh but they all pass and know it is our family tradition! My latest prodigy 12 yrs of age popped a nice deer right in the head at 75 yds made me proud uncle

 

[colorado]

I started out both of my sons on an Ithaca single shot 22. Like you they had to pass the hunter safety course before I would let them shoot. The both graduated to 270s by the time they were 10 (a year later) and hunted with them. I handload so they were shooting 130g corelokts at 2700 fps. The reduced recoil ammo is available to do the same. Once they were 12, they were shooting 150g Partitions at 3000 fps. Best elk load I've ever used, been using it for 40 years, many dead elk would bear witness if they were able. They and I have shot our share of black bears as well. I love the 243, but to me a 270 is a better choice for the long run.

 

[rookhawk]

@colorado I bought a case of the 200 yard-and-under Hornady reduced recoil .243 Win ammo when I bought the rifle hoping to achieve what you did with your kids in their early years of hunting. I figured it would be ideal for getting my daughter comfortable with shooting a centerfire rifle that has no bite and will take deer and antelope very well inside 200 yards.

Once the kids are of a mature enough age to shoot larger guns we have no small supply for them to choose from in our "family favorite" calibers although .270 has never been in our battery: 6.5x55, 7x57, 300H&H, 318WR, .375HH, .404J, 470NE. If something needs killing and the shooter weighs over 65lbs, they can grab any one of those options as appropriate for a hunt.

(Note the common theme from the list above: Every gun I own is designed as the lightest recoiling rifle in its class)

 

[colorado]

@colorado I bought a case of the 200 yard-and-under Hornady reduced recoil .243 Win ammo when I bought the rifle hoping to achieve what you did with your kids in their early years of hunting. I figured it would be ideal for getting my daughter comfortable with shooting a centerfire rifle that has no bite and will take deer and antelope very well inside 200 yards.

Once the kids are of a mature enough age to shoot larger guns we have no small supply for them to choose from in our "family favorite" calibers although .270 has never been in our battery: 6.5x55, 7x57, 300H&H, 318WR, .375HH, .404J, 470NE. If something needs killing and the shooter weighs over 65lbs, they can grab any one of those options as appropriate for a hunt.

(Note the common theme from the list above: Every gun I own is designed as the lightest recoiling rifle in its class)

Sounds great. One of my greatest joys, along with seeing them grow to be good intelligent people and succeeding in college is hunting with my children. Congrats, sounds like a 243 with reduced recoil loads is a great start. I got my first two elk with a 243

 

[Shootist43]

Rookhawk, thanks for sharing the Length of Pull Chart. As I previously stated I had the stock shortened on a Swedish Mauser to be used as a first hunting rifle by mu grandkids. The shop that did the work didn't have any suggestions on LOP so I guessed. That was the wrong thing to do. I will be sending this info to my gunsmith for future reference. The next user is currently 6 years old so I have time to do it right.

You mentioned that suppressors were not legal in your state, does that include muzzle brakes as well? I had one installed on my "grandkids" gun. The last user shot the rifle prior to the installation of the muzzle brake and complained a little, after the installation there was nothing but smiles.

Noise startles youngsters more than anything, make sure your daughter's hearing protection is properly installed prior to each range session. Best of luck to both of you.

 

[rookhawk]

@Shootist43 indeed suppressors are illegal in my State. In other states they are about as arduous to get as a machine gun. In this area, USA is way behind.

I didn't want to get a muzzle break because of the substantial noise increase that they cause. Instead, I just relied on good recoil pads.

Take a look at New England Custom Gun. They make pads for about $40 that slide and lock on but appear similar to a red or orange proper silvers pad. Mount the optic so it will work with a long, medium and short pad, then you'll have a gun that will continue to fit kids as they grow. Pad swap outs take literally 2 seconds with their ingenious mounting bracket system.

 

[Shootist43]

Thanks for the heads up on the New England Custom Guns. I'll do that.

 

[Jwg223]

Gentlemen,

My kids have not yet been shooting but my eldest is quickly meeting the challenges laid before her to reach that goal. (e.g. must pass hunter ed)

I have three kids and the eldest is a very unique, very mature 7 year old. I'm trying to figure out what I can buy her as a first rifle that won't be worthless rubble in 5 years and that will have lasting power throughout her life. (realizing she'll need a new stock someday)

Any thoughts on this plan for her? I was thinking of a pre-64 Win Model 70 featherweight in .243 that has been "ruined" by collector standards. A great gun that has been drilled/tapped, that has had the stock cut, refinished or otherwise molested. It looks like these non-collectors fetch around $700-$750 with excellent bores. Start her with a 12" stock and a thin efficient recoil pad and grow her into a 1"+ orange silvers pad out past 13" later?

Please give me some honest dad advice here. Is this cartridge the right first choice? If yes, what bullet weight / type is appropriate for hunting Africa with it?

Any other ideas out there for a lifelong rifle to start a child with? She's 4'2", 62lbs at present and we'll probably be on a safari together within 18 months and she'll probably be 4'8", 75lbs by then.

Thank you for some mentoring. While I'm an experienced gun collector, I'm not an experienced dad.

I am not a parent, nor have I hunted Africa. I have, however, shot with and helped a lot of people. The classical mistake is to ask more experienced people what to do with less experienced/no experience people, regarding their firearm. This is to say, I have helped many women dump the terrible little mouse-guns that men in their lives previously convinced them would be best. One went from a tiny little pocket SIG to a 1911 (although I hate 1911's...). My point here, is that different people are differently sensitive to recoil...just like fighters. Some people can take a punch, some have a glass jaw. Some people have heavy hands, and some are just ineffective. All of these can be trained, but there is a very high level of natural inclination to them. Your wee child may giggle and smile at the bunch of a light .308. Or she may be like my friend's 8 year old who says his AR15 5.56 carbine "hurts his shoulder". There is no telling until you spend some time with the shooter and some various firearms.

Above all, the new shooter needs to be made to feel secure, un-judged, and FUN needs to be the over-all goal with only safety overshadowing it, while performance improvement should be the path "fun" takes. Older and more mature shooters I have found like shooting targets. They are very good for decedently Type A people who are not discouraged easily. Less resilient people seem to do well on steel, like 1/3 IPSC or plates. There, a marginal "hit" still is rewarded the same as a bulls-eye, and noone aims for the very edge of the target...they just aim for hits, and they get better while still being rewarded for mediocre performance. For the very youngest and immature (I say this developmentally, not that they are silly or anything, mainly, I mean children...and some adults, like me!) fruit, shaken soda cans, etc. are excellent targets.

If your daughter can bang away with that .30 cal at a shaken soda can and blow fizzy everywhere 10x out of 10 at 150 yards, then do you really need her to punch a little orange circle? Nah, she can hit that animal! Also, before anyone complains of the cost...cheap off-brand soda costs how much compared to ammo? And creating a happy, safe, new shooter is priceless!

 

[colorado]

I am not a parent, nor have I hunted Africa. I have, however, shot with and helped a lot of people. The classical mistake is to ask more experienced people what to do with less experienced/no experience people, regarding their firearm. This is to say, I have helped many women dump the terrible little mouse-guns that men in their lives previously convinced them would be best. One went from a tiny little pocket SIG to a 1911 (although I hate 1911's...). My point here, is that different people are differently sensitive to recoil...just like fighters. Some people can take a punch, some have a glass jaw. Some people have heavy hands, and some are just ineffective. All of these can be trained, but there is a very high level of natural inclination to them. Your wee child may giggle and smile at the bunch of a light .308. Or she may be like my friend's 8 year old who says his AR15 5.56 carbine "hurts his shoulder". There is no telling until you spend some time with the shooter and some various firearms.

Above all, the new shooter needs to be made to feel secure, un-judged, and FUN needs to be the over-all goal with only safety overshadowing it, while performance improvement should be the path "fun" takes. Older and more mature shooters I have found like shooting targets. They are very good for decedently Type A people who are not discouraged easily. Less resilient people seem to do well on steel, like 1/3 IPSC or plates. There, a marginal "hit" still is rewarded the same as a bulls-eye, and noone aims for the very edge of the target...they just aim for hits, and they get better while still being rewarded for mediocre performance. For the very youngest and immature (I say this developmentally, not that they are silly or anything, mainly, I mean children...and some adults, like me!) fruit, shaken soda cans, etc. are excellent targets.

If your daughter can bang away with that .30 cal at a shaken soda can and blow fizzy everywhere 10x out of 10 at 150 yards, then do you really need her to punch a little orange circle? Nah, she can hit that animal! Also, before anyone complains of the cost...cheap off-brand soda costs how much compared to ammo? And creating a happy, safe, new shooter is priceless!

Absolutely! But use cheap diet soda otherwise your range will be taken over by ants!

 

[CLICKBANGBANG]

Since the break is a no go and while working on the stock, had you thought of putting a mercury recoil suppressor in it? Some of them are down to just a few oz and it may help the gun to settle into her shoulder and reduce recoil just a hair more. Adding a little weight wouldn't hurt too much. I imagine you setting the gun up for her as she is in position to shoot. Not like she'll be sheep hunting this summer and needs it lightweight. In the future if it's no longer needed, just remove the pad and pull out. I think some of the single shot rifles are at a disadvantage for a small shooter. The single shots are often a lbs or a lbs and a half lighter, making the felt recoil much higher. I found this with some of my very young cousins.

I'm a very big fan of the .243 for a small shooter and I think that's an amazing first centerfire rifle! That little girls new gun will be finished finer than the old busted gun I'm hunting with now. Lol.

 

[rookhawk]

@CLICKBANGBANG i hadn't considered a mercury reducer for two reasons:

1.) they are banned on many aircraft as mercury dissolves airframes

2.) I'm unsure that they make a difference beyond equal weight in lead. I've heard both arguments and would like to go to a physics convention and listen to a battle royale up to consensus on the topic!