Magazine capacity of a 375

SRvet

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Once again I would like to pick everyone’s brains. Can I ask how important people think the additional magazine capacity is when comparing the likes of a CZ /BRNO that has 5 round capacity with a Winchester model 70 Safari Express with 3 round magazine capacity. Are there situations that arise commonly where this becomes important where the rifle is used on a guided DG hunt? Having never hunted DG, all I can go off is the videos on the internet where there often seems to be one or two shots fired before there being time to top up the mag. With true charges it seems to be one or possibly two shots fired before the argument is concluded one way or the other. The reason for asking is that I have located a nice 1975 BRNO 602 (with peep sight) at a good price and also a great condition Winchester 70 and I’m in a dilemma which way to jump
 

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basically it doesn't matter, if four shots (one in the chamber) are not enough, six shots won't help much.
I would tend to the Winchester today, but note that the BRNO has an original magnum system (today also ?? )
This system alone costs round 3.000.- USD normaly.
At least he was on my BRNO Safari and Winchester can't keep up with him.
I'd have the BRNO reworked, trigger and all.

Today Im dreaming from that bride:
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Choose the rifle you want most and enjoy it.
A lot of people hunt dangerous game with a double so you will still have more bullets than them whichever way you go!
You should have enough time to replace any fired rounds as you go so don't let magazine capacity be the deciding factor.
You don't want to buy one rifle because of that but then spend time wishing you had bought the other.

Foxi, are you getting an M03 in .375?
 

SRvet

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Thanks for the thoughts, The Winchester is the easier choice as it already has a 3 position safety, barrel band swivel, straight comb stock whereas the BRNO would need a trip to the gunsmith to modify these things...... but like you say it is a true magnum action that could be made into something potentially nicer than the factory Winchester.
 

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It is of no consequence . A Winchester Model 70 , chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum ... Holds a grand total of 4 cartridges . The BRNO ZKK 602 , chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum ... holds a grand total of 6 cartridges . Now , if a gentle man cannot dispose of his quarry in 4 shots ... Then , he has no business hunting ... in the very 1st place . He should take up another hobby .

The only REAL world application where the extra cartridge capacity of a BRNO ZKK 602 bolt rifle , would actually be a REAL advantage ... Would be during culling programmes . During culls ( Such as African elephant culls , or Cape buffalo eradication culls ) ... Large amounts of dangerous game invariably need to be dispatched , at the same time . A larger magazine capacity is a MASSIVE advantage ... Under these sets of circumstances .

In the olden days of commercial ivory hunting , or when scores of buffaloes were killed to supplement rail road or plantation workers with fresh meat ... A larger magazine capacity was indispensable . This was because large numbers of game animals needed to be dispatched at the same time ... Thus , necessitating a larger magazine capacity to avoid having to re load their magazines so frequently .

I would personally opt for the BRNO ZKK 602 bolt rifle . An additional magazine capacity ... Never hurt any body .
Besides ... Winchester is still currently manufacturing their Model 70 bolt rifles , chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum . You could easily purchase 1 ... When ever you please , in the foreseeable future . However , the BRNO ZKK 602 is no longer being manufactured . You have come across a jewel ... Which is getting increasingly rare to find ( Especially , after CZ recently discontinued their 550 line of bolt rifles ) . I highly recommend that you snag it ... While the going is still good . To add to this ... The BRNO ZKK 602's magnum length action can easily be used , to build anything up to the size of a .500 Jeffery calibre bolt rifle ... In the perceptible future .
 
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Hello SRvet,

I am + 1 with Major Khan in that, both rifles are worthy.
However, as he already mentioned, the Model 70 is commonly made today.
The Brno 602 is indeed getting harder to find now, especially the earlier made ones with the factory pop-up peep sight.

If you hang around this forum very much and/or visit Africa even once, eventually you will want a .404 Jeffery Mauser.
The Brno 602 Magnum is the perfect action to have converted to this caliber.
Last but not least, the deeper magazine of the Brno 602 just “looks more African” lol.

My favorite rifle in my toy box is my Brno 602 Magnum, in .375 H&H.
It wears a 4x Zeiss scope in Alaska Arms brand lever rings.
Despite the old fashioned / low powered scope, it is incredibly accurate.
If I had to leave my other rifles behind and disappear into the wilderness for the rest of my life, I’d bring my described 602 Magnum, no question.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
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Major Khan

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Hello SRvet,

I am + 1 with Major Khan in that, both rifles are worthy.
However, as he already mentioned, the Model 70 is commonly made today.
The Brno 602 is indeed getting harder to find now, especially the earlier made ones with the factory pop-up peep sight.

If you hang around this forum very much and/or visit Africa even once, eventually you will want a .404 Jeffery Mauser.
The Brno 602 Magnum is the perfect action to have converted to this caliber.
Last but not least, the deeper magazine of the Brno 602 just “looks more African” lol.

My favorite rifle in my toy box is my Brno 602 Magnum, in .375 H&H.
It wears a 4x Zeiss scope in Alaska Arms brand lever rings.
Despite the old fashioned / low powered scope, it is incredibly accurate.
If I had to leave my other rifles behind and disappear into the wilderness for the rest of my life, I’d bring my described 602 Magnum, no question.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
Why thank you so much , Velo Dog . I really feel relieved, to know that my choices are not all too out dated ... Even after 50 years .
 

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Why thank you so much , Velo Dog . I really feel relieved, to know that my choices are not all too out dated ... Even after 50 years .
I am not sure having @Velo Dog support your recommendation would be considered a particularly modern validation. :whistle:
 

SRvet

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SRvet,
I'll make a decision for you: Buy them both!
Damnit I keep hearing those voices !! Sadly that is not likely to be an option as our very strict firearms regulations tend to prevent owning two rifles of the same calibre without very good reason, so it is one or the other. I may however be able to justify a bigger rifle ....
 

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There is a bit more to it...

This is an endless repeat issue because there likely are several dozens similar threads, but you deserve an answer just as much as the last person who asked, so, to summarize the objective facts:

Both CZ 550 / ZKK 602 and Win 70 have:

- Controlled round feed (CRF). Whether it matters to you or not is your personal choice, there is no shortage of folks who do not care, and, truth be told, push feed (PF) rifles have just as good a track record as CRF. I personally like CRF not so much for extraction purposes (C clip extractors work), as I do for the fact that it is about impossible to inadvertently load a CRF (unless its extractor was butchered/beveled), as it is easy to push a cartridge in the chamber with a PF and leave it there unwittingly. I personally know people who witnessed someone being killed with a PF rifle after its feeding was discussed and group tested, and in the heat of the discussion and the rifle changing hands everyone forgot that a round had been pushed into the chamber... Of course, the rifle itself did not kill the person, stupid handling and a long list of inept gun safety violations did, but the bottom line is that CRF on that rifle would likely have prevented the accident...​

The objective differentiating characteristics are, in no particular order:

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have drop belly large capacity magazine. This is the object of this thread, already commented on... I am not sure I always buy the 4 vs. 6 argument, as I do not chamber a round until I am about to shoot the rifle. In some cases it is possible to manually feed one round under the CRF extractor and get it carried into the chamber in addition to a full mag, and in many cases it is not timely to do so, therefore magazine capacity is what you have, and the discussion becomes 3 vs. 5. Everyone will have their own opinion. I personally would rather have 5 rounds than 3 in a DG bolt rifle...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have 100% forged steel machined bottom metal. Some Win 70 have a steel bottom, some have a pot-metal cast bottom. Pot metal bottoms can break. I had one on a .340 Wby break under recoil just at the floor plate hinge...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have double square bridges with integral scope bases. These will never shake loose. Win 70 have screwed on scope bases. Even if you re-drill and re-tap the holes and threads from 6x48 to 8x40 screws, the bases will always be an add-on. Admittedly on a .375 H&H it is not as big an issue as on a .416 or .458. I have seen several sets of bases come loose on .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman and .458 Win rifles put together by premium rifle smiths... I have personally had bases shake loose on a .340 Wby after ~100 rounds...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have appropriate barrel contour and weight. Win 70 do not. Yes some prefer their scoped .375 to weigh 9.5 lbs. Many prefer them to weigh 10.5 lbs. To each their own. Admittedly the .375 H&H does not have tremendous recoil. A heavier CZ 550 really comes into its own with .416 and .458. People keep saying "Weatherby eyebrow" to refer to scope bite scars, because I guess the .378 and .460 Wby provided their fair share of these, but light .416 Rem and .458 Win do to... (as well as .375 RUM and the like, for that matter).​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have a barrel boss integral rear sight base and a barrel-band front sight base. Win 70 have screwed-on rear base and front ramp. Again, this is less of an issue on a .375 H&H and more an issue for .416 and .458, but whatever is screwed on a heavy-recoil rifle is less permanently attached than what is integral of barrel-banded. I personally lost a screwed-on front sight on a .375 H&H Voere Titan...

- All CZ 550 / ZKK 602 parts are machined steel. Many Win 70 parts, certainly post New Haven, but even during the last decade of New Haven, are wax-cast pot metal parts. Win 70 safety switch for example are known to break.​

And of course,

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have a .416 Rigby length action. Win 70 have a .375 H&H length action. This is an irrelevant point for a .375 H&H but very much of the essence for larger calibers that are not based on the .375 hull...​

Conversely,

- Win 70 have a true bolt-mounted firing pin-blocking safety. CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have an action-mounted sear-blocking safety. In case of a hard fall, it is possible for the cocking piece to jump the sear and fire the rifle. Thankfully, a Win 70 type safety can be easily retrofitted to a CZ 550 / ZKK 602 for about $300. This, in my opinion, is a must...​

Not to forget the endless debate,

- Win 70 have a reputation for being smooth. This is actually erroneous. They are loose. But this indeed results in fluid handling.​

- CZ 550 have a justified reputation for being rough out of the factory. ZKK 602 not so much. Based on rifles I have personally handled, I suspect that communist era ZKK 602 had an additional manual deburring manufacturing step, which capitalist CZ 550 skipped in the name of cost savings. This likely was the biggest possible mistake CZ ever made, because it killed the rifle with many American customers would failed to realized that inside the rough was a true diamond... About 2 hours with a few miniature files and sand paper will make any CZ as smooth as any Win 70. Keep in mind that Rigby of London used CZ 550 actions to build their $xx,xxx rifles for the several decades from the 1950's to 2015 when the magnum Mauser actions were out of production. This was not by accident but by educated choice...​

I would personally buy the ZKK 602, put a $300 Bell & Carlson kevlar and integral aluminum bedding block & pillars stock, and a $300 American Hunting Rifles (AHR) Win 70 type safety on it, and have a rock solid, war-horse Safari rifle. But many will prefer the Win 70 and it is a fine rifle too. My point is that a CZ 550 / ZKK 602 with Win 70 safety is everything a Win 70 is, plus a lot more than a Win 70 can never be (double square bridge bases, drop belly capacity, proper barrel contour, integral rear sight, barrel band front sight, 100% steel, etc.)
 
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Velo Dog

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I am not sure having @Velo Dog support your recommendation would be considered a particularly modern validation. :whistle:

Joe,

In my mildew saturated mind, “modern” could easily be described as a dirty word, lol.

My best,
Paul.
 

SRvet

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There is a bit more to it...

This is an endless repeat issue because there likely are several dozens similar threads, but you deserve an answer just as much as the last person who asked, so, to summarize the objective facts:

Both CZ 550 / ZKK 602 and Win 70 have:

- Controlled round feed (CRF). Whether it matters to you or not is your personal choice, there is no shortage of folks who do not care, and, truth be told, push feed (PF) rifles have just as good a track record as CRF. I personally like CRF not so much for extraction purposes (C clip extractors work), as I do for the fact that it is about impossible to inadvertently load a CRF (unless its extractor was butchered/beveled), as it is easy to push a cartridge in the chamber with a PF and leave it there unwittingly. I personally know people who witnessed someone being killed with a PF rifle after its feeding was discussed and group tested, and in the heat of the discussion and the rifle changing hands everyone forgot that a round had been pushed into the chamber... Of course, the rifle itself did not kill the person, stupid handling and a long list of inept gun safety violations did, but the bottom line is that CRF on that rifle would likely have prevented the accident...​

The objective differentiating characteristics are, in no particular order:

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have drop belly large capacity magazine. This is the object of this thread, already commented on... I am not sure I always buy the 4 vs. 6 argument, as I do not chamber a round until I am about to shoot the rifle. In some cases it is possible to manually feed one round under the CRF extractor and get it carried into the chamber in addition to a full mag, and in many cases it is not timely to do so, therefore magazine capacity is what you have, and the discussion becomes 3 vs. 5. Everyone will have their own opinion. I personally would rather have 5 rounds than 3 in a DG bolt rifle...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have 100% forged steel machined bottom metal. Some Win 70 have a steel bottom, some have a pot-metal cast bottom. Pot metal bottoms can break. I had one on a .340 Wby break under recoil just at the floor plate hinge...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have double square bridges with integral scope bases. These will never shake loose. Win 70 have screwed on scope bases. Even if you re-drill and re-tap the holes and threads from 6x48 to 8x40 screws, the bases will always be an add-on. Admittedly on a .375 H&H it is not as big an issue as on a .416 or .458. I have seen several sets of bases come loose on .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman and .458 Win rifles put together by premium rifle smiths... I have personally had bases shake loose on a .340 Wby after ~100 rounds...​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have appropriate barrel contour and weight. Win 70 do not. Yes some prefer their scoped .375 to weigh 9.5 lbs. Many prefer them to weigh 10.5 lbs. To each their own. Admittedly the .375 H&H does not have tremendous recoil. A heavier CZ 550 really comes into its own with .416 and .458. People keep saying "Weatherby eyebrow" to refer to scope bite scars, because I guess the .378 and .460 Wby provided their fair share of these, but light .416 Rem and .458 Win do to... (as well as .375 RUM and the like, for that matter).​

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have a barrel boss integral rear sight base and a barrel-band front sight base. Win 70 have screwed-on rear base and front ramp. Again, this is less of an issue on a .375 H&H and more an issue for .416 and .458, but whatever is screwed on a heavy-recoil rifle is less permanently attached than what is integral of barrel-banded. I personally lost a screwed-on front sight on a .375 H&H Voere Titan...

- All CZ 550 / ZKK 602 parts are machined steel. Many Win 70 parts, certainly post New Haven, but even during the last decade of New Haven, are wax-cast pot metal parts. Win 70 safety switch for example are known to break.​

And of course,

- CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have a .416 Rigby length action. Win 70 have a .375 H&H length action. This is an irrelevant point for a .375 H&H but very much of the essence for larger calibers that are not based on the .375 hull...​

Conversely,

- Win 70 have a true bolt-mounted firing pin-blocking safety. CZ 550 / ZKK 602 have an action-mounted sear-blocking safety. In case of a hard fall, it is possible for the cocking piece to jump the sear and fire the rifle. Thankfully, a Win 70 type safety can be easily retrofitted to a CZ 550 / ZKK 602 for about $300. This, in my opinion, is a must...​

Not to forget the endless debate,

- Win 70 have a reputation for being smooth. This is actually erroneous. They are loose. But this indeed results in fluid handling.​

- CZ 550 have a justified reputation for being rough out of the factory. ZKK 602 not so much. Based on rifles I have personally handled, I suspect that communist era ZKK 602 had an additional manual deburring manufacturing step, which capitalist CZ 550 skipped in the name of cost savings. This likely was the biggest possible mistake CZ ever made, because it killed the rifle with many American customers would failed to realized that inside the rough was a true diamond... About 2 hours with a few miniature files and sand paper will make any CZ as smooth as any Win 70. Keep in mind that Rigby of London used CZ 550 actions to build their $xx,xxx rifles for the several decades from the 1950's to 2015 when the magnum Mauser actions were out of production. This was not by accident but by educated choice...​

I would personally buy the ZKK 602, put a $300 Bell & Carlson kevlar and integral aluminum bedding block & pillars stock, and a $300 American Hunting Rifles (AHR) Win 70 type safety on it, and have a rock solid, war-horse Safari rifle. But many will prefer the Win 70 and it is a fine rifle too. My point is that a CZ 550 / ZKK 602 with Win 70 safety is everything a Win 70 is, plus a lot more than a Win 70 can never be (double square bridge bases, drop belly capacity, proper barrel contour, integral rear sight, barrel band front sight, 100% steel, etc.)
An awesome and detailed reply, thanks very much!
 

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Does anyone really think they will get off more than three rounds in a hunting situation? Not without a critical hit. How many really practice that hard to get decent sight/scope/dot tracking skills built with a big(medium) bore rifle? The capacity of a .375 is just fine at four and quite capable at six. I'm really happy with my No. 1 and I can get off shots steadily with it. If we don't come to our senses accept the reality of what we can actually do with the gun we'll end up with a really heavy magazine fed rifle with only two or three shots fired. There is very little gained or lost in magazine capacity. The value is in muzzle energy and shot placement.
 

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SRvet,

This wouldn't happen to be my Win 70 for sale on the Stalking Directory by any chance?

Obviously I'm biased, but I'll try and put that aside to give useful advice. Let me know how I get on with that!

When I was enquiring about .375s with the fine peope of this forum, the feedback was that whilst the CZ does have some advantages as discussed below, it also has a disadvantage.

The disadvantage being that it may not actually work reliably, smoothly and repeatably straight from the factory. The CZ can be made to work absolutely relaibly, but I was advised that a degree of additional expense and fettling should be expected.

So I guess that's your choice.

Advantages of the CZ:

doube bridge with integral scope mount
magnum size action (not that it matters in .375, but I would consider that you are limited to the book COAL of 3.600" by the magazine in the Win, whilst the CZ might possibly allow yo to seat the havier bullets further out if desired.)
5 rounds vs 3
25" vs 24" barrel gives more velocity
Possibly more machined vs cast parts (depending on vintage and also depending if this is genuinely an advantage)
Possibly a couple ounces heavier, especially once you've 5 rounds down.

Advantages of the Win 70:

It's very likely to work direct from factory.
firing pin blocking safety
Smoother action as new
possibly marginally lighter (not much in it as said)
Possibly slightly better standard of general fit and finish
Possibly better wood
Flxibility in scope mounting (you have the choice of putting whatever mounts you want on, the CZ design is more limited)
Slightly shorter barrel and overall length

I'd suggest that actually, the barrel profile is roughly the same on the CZ and Win Safari Express, whilst the weight of both is stated as 9lb for the Win and 9.13lbs (not sure if this means 9lb 1oz or 9lb 13oz) for the CZ.

Someone said above that the CZ can be everything that the Win is and more, you just need to do the work.

Honestly, I think this is probably true, but by the time you've swapped out the stock, got it bedded, got someone to smooth the action, swapped out the safety for a Win unit, all on top of actually buying the gun, its also nearly twice the price of simply buying a Win 70 which works as standard. Especially considering UK prices for all firearm bits, and the difficulty of actually sourcing all these bits here.

For proof of this, AHR in the states offer this upgrade service. Total price on top of the base gun for the stage 2 tune up (all things suggested above excepting buying a new stock) - $1,795 on top of the base gun ( https://americanhuntingrifles.com/upgrade-your-cz/). I make the 'superior' Cz a roughly £3,000 purchase (£1,650 for gun plus £1,350 in fettling) in the UK to get it right, versus the Win at maybe £1,300. I went with simplicity and cost and am very happy with my Win. Sad to have to sell it really.

Something to consider either way and I hope you find what you're looking for!

Al.
 

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Shootist43

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If it were up to me, I'd buy the BRNO and have the safety converted.
 

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