Lion Hunting Question

[Moody808]

I'm looking for some education on lion hunting. I have found quite a bit of information on wild lion hunting (which I likely would never be able to afford) and a lot on CBL hunting (which I could afford but I'm not sure I want to do). I recently read a small article in the SCI magazine that talked about Wild Management Lion hunts. It did not have a lot in the way of details other than mentioning that they were a lot more affordable than traditional wild lion hunts, the article lists around $15k as the starting price point for these types of hunts but it didn't really do a good job of explaining or defining what these hunts are. If anyone knows more about these hunts and or any outfitters that offer these types of hunts it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[deewayne2003]

Watching with interest

 

[wesheltonj]

Thread 'Lions - Captive vs. Wild-managed'

Aug 14, 2017

I understand what a captive bred lion is. I also understand what a wild lion is.

What is a wild-managed lion and where in South Africa would one find wild or wild-managed lions?

I have recently hunted a captive bred lion and it was the hunt of a lifetime. I guess now the greenies and anti's are going to make me go shoot another lion to bring a trophy back. Although I don't think that was their intent, it seems like it is going to be the effect.

Or do we think there will be any chance of getting my CBL imported in the near future?

• mrpoindexter
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Hunting Africa

• 

AI below:

Wild lions vs. wild managed lions vs. captive lions. What is the difference between them?

A wild lion is a lion that lives in an area with absolutely no human intervention, meaning it is free-roaming, hunts its own food and regulates its own populations. If a wild lion is injured or sick it will most likely die a natural death. Examples of these are the lions in parks such the Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park, Kruger National Park, Great Limpopo Transfrontier Park, Etosha National Park, and Tsavo National Park. These are true wilderness areas with large tracts of land and few fences restricting movement of animals.

A wild managed lion is a lion that is born in the wild however in an environment that has limited space e.g. a game reserve that is fenced. Due to the boundaries of this environment, the populations of the animals are managed and controlled. Although these lions live similar lives to wild lions in terms of hunting their own prey, they are subject to human intervention such as: veterinary care if they are ill, contraception if populations get too big for the area, relocations and even euthanasia. These animals are often collared so that park management is aware of their whereabouts and their wellbeing, and so scientific research can be carried out.

Captive-bred lions are lions born in captivity, often under conditions that encourage frequent breeding of lionesses. All the needs of these lions are supposed to be met by humans i.e. they should receive all their food and water from humans as well as their behavioural and veterinary needs. The notion that captive-bred lions are important for “maintaining and increasing wild lion populations” is one of the biggest deceptions told. It is rare, if not unheard of, for captive‑bred lions to be successfully released into the wild. A successful release means that the released lions fend for themselves, but more importantly generate offspring.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

This hunt offer is almost two years old from a AH sponsor Lin Stanton of Mbalabala Safaris mbalabalasafaris.co

Chances are any wild (male) lion would be twice or more the listed price!

When you are serious and ready for a wild lion or lioness hunt, reach out to operators like Lin Stanton and ask if they know of anything available.

Thread 'Free Range Lioness Hunt Zimbabwe'

Jan 6, 2024

Hi all
I have a great deal on a couple free range lioness in Zimbabwe’s renowned Save valley conservancy.

Area- save valley
Dates- various available
PH - Lin Stanton


The price is as follows.

10 days at $1150 per day
$5000 trophy fee
$500 ranger fee
$500 Tax levies etc…..

Total price $17500

Included in the hunt.
Full ph services with vehicle etc…
All food
All drinks
Daily laundry
Field preparation
Vehicle Transfer to camp

I have several references if you need to chat to someone who has hunted with me in save valley.

Please feel free to message me or email me...

• Mbalabala Safaris
• Replies: 20
• Forum: Deals & offers

• 
• 

 

[Moody808]

This hunt offer is almost two years old from a AH sponsor Lin Stanton of Mbalabala Safaris mbalabalasafaris.co

Chances are any wild (male) lion would be twice or more the listed price!

Thread 'Free Range Lioness Hunt Zimbabwe'

Jan 6, 2024

Hi all
I have a great deal on a couple free range lioness in Zimbabwe’s renowned Save valley conservancy.

Area- save valley
Dates- various available
PH - Lin Stanton


The price is as follows.

10 days at $1150 per day
$5000 trophy fee
$500 ranger fee
$500 Tax levies etc…..

Total price $17500

Included in the hunt.
Full ph services with vehicle etc…
All food
All drinks
Daily laundry
Field preparation
Vehicle Transfer to camp

I have several references if you need to chat to someone who has hunted with me in save valley.

Please feel free to message me or email me...

• Mbalabala Safaris
• Replies: 20
• Forum: Deals & offers

• 
• 

This is exactly what I was looking for, unfortunately as you said, quite out of date. I guess the wild management lion opportunities don't come up all that often.

If there are any sponsors who do offer these hunts please feel free to PM me.

 

[375Fox]

I’d ask a lot of questions about a “wild managed” trophy male lion in South Africa that’s only $15k. The wild managed lions that are importable into the US have a price tag comparable with wild lions. Add up the value of game a lion eats in 5+ years that’s needed as a trophy fee to justify keeping them to sell for hunting to get an idea. CBL lions allow opportunity for a lot of dishonesty once they are released. Still to be seen if South Africa actually follows through on banning CBL. 2025 was supposedly the last season permits would be issued. If that was case I’d be much less skeptical of non-importable wild managed lions that get offered.

No one will reach out to try and sell the hunts. They sell themselves to repeat clients, but the best value in wild lion hunting today is likely a lioness in Namibia. Problem lion permits in Namibia are also a great value if you are lucky enough to be there when they are issued. One of the biggest mistakes I’ve made has been turning down a problem permit because I didn’t want to trade off other portions of the hunt to afford it at the time.

 

[Moody808]

I’d ask a lot of questions about a “wild managed” trophy male lion in South Africa that’s only $15k. The wild managed lions that are importable into the US have a price tag comparable with wild lions. Add up the value of game a lion eats in 5+ years that’s needed as a trophy fee to justify keeping them to sell for hunting to get an idea. CBL lions allow opportunity for a lot of dishonesty once they are released. Still to be seen if South Africa actually follows through on banning CBL. 2025 was supposedly the last season permits would be issued. If that was case I’d be much less skeptical of non-importable wild managed lions that get offered.

No one will reach out to try and sell the hunts. They sell themselves to repeat clients, but the best value in wild lion hunting today is likely a lioness in Namibia. Problem lion permits in Namibia are also a great value if you are lucky enough to be there when they are issued. One of the biggest mistakes I’ve made has been turning down a problem permit because I didn’t want to trade off other portions of the hunt to afford it at the time.

Those are really valid points, which was the main driver of my trying to seek out some more information to figure out what exactly this was all about.

In all fairness to the article it does give a pretty broad price range for the wild management lions ($15k to $100k) and it indicates Namibia and RSA as being the two countries where these hunts may be offered.

 

[dogcat1]

Virtually any lion hunted in RSA is pen raised and released. There are a few areas that border the game parks that may have a wild lion or two and there are some wild lions on the RSA - Namibia border but few.

If you want a truly wild lion hunt - Zimbabwe, certain areas in Namibia, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambiique. Cost will be over $45k every time.

 

[BJH65]

I have researched this myself. @wesheltonj encapsulated the definitions very well. So speaking specifically about South Africa, there is legal wild lion hunting that occurs every so often in the Greater Kruger area called the APNR, Associated Private Nature Reserves. These are typically baited hunts, CITES exportable and similar in cost to wild lion hunts in other African countries. The last one I was able to research in the APNR in 2018 cost approximately 60k. Also VERY politically sensitive. There is a private joke, if the lion has a “name” probably don’t kill it.

Then we have what you may be referring to, “wild managed lion” that reside in very small numbers in Private Big Five game reserves adjacent to the Greater Kruger. Researching how some of these lion are managed in these private reserves, the science involved and research papers, the various biological considerations have given me a headache.

These are not captive bred lion but they do live in a fenced Big Five Reserve. Only a very small number can be maintained. They do hunt and kill wild game present on the reserves hence the very small number of lion, just a few lion on one Big Five Reserve I know of. They are primarily there for tourism and not hunting.

It is seldom that one will be offered to hunt, nor do I fully understand yet how one could be legally exported to a CITES country like the U.S., I need to research this further. If I were given the opportunity to hunt a non exportable one I would if the cost weren’t prohibitive. My research reveals that a “problem” lion at one of these private Big Five reserves that needs to be removed will most likely be offered to a local hunter only, guided by a PH.

Then there is CBL-Captive Bred Lion in SA which has already been explained and I have no interest in hunting one.

I think the best bet for a lower priced wild lion hunt is a lioness hunt in Zimbabwe or Namibia, or a late season cancellation wild lion hunt in Zimbabwe if you are able to drop everything and go on short notice.

 

[Moody808]

I have researched this myself. @wesheltonj encapsulated the definitions very well. So speaking specifically about South Africa, there is legal wild lion hunting that occurs every so often in the Greater Kruger area called the APNR, Associated Private Nature Reserves. These are typically baited hunts, CITES exportable and similar in cost to wild lion hunts in other African countries. The last one I was able to research in the APNR in 2018 cost approximately 60k. Also VERY politically sensitive. There is a private joke, if the lion has a “name” probably don’t kill it.

Then we have what you may be referring to, “wild managed lion” that reside in very small numbers in Private Big Five game reserves adjacent to the Greater Kruger. Researching how some of these lion are managed in these private reserves, the science involved and research papers, the various biological considerations have given me a headache.

These are not captive bred lion but they do live in a fenced Big Five Reserve. Only a very small number can be maintained. They do hunt and kill wild game present on the reserves hence the very small number of lion, just a few lion on one Big Five Reserve I know of. They are primarily there for tourism and not hunting.

It is seldom that one will be offered to hunt, nor do I fully understand yet how one could be legally exported to a CITES country like the U.S., I need to research this further. If I were given the opportunity to hunt a non exportable one I would if the cost weren’t prohibitive. My research reveals that a “problem” lion at one of these private Big Five reserves that needs to be removed will most likely be offered to a local hunter only, guided by a PH.

Then there is CBL-Captive Bred Lion in SA which has already been explained and I have no interest in hunting one.

I think the best bet for a lower priced wild lion hunt is a lioness hunt in Zimbabwe or Namibia, or a late season cancellation wild lion hunt in Zimbabwe if you are able to drop everything and go on short notice.

Thanks, appreciate you sharing the insight from all the research.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I'm looking for some education on lion hunting. I have found quite a bit of information on wild lion hunting (which I likely would never be able to afford) and a lot on CBL hunting (which I could afford but I'm not sure I want to do). I recently read a small article in the SCI magazine that talked about Wild Management Lion hunts. It did not have a lot in the way of details other than mentioning that they were a lot more affordable than traditional wild lion hunts, the article lists around $15k as the starting price point for these types of hunts but it didn't really do a good job of explaining or defining what these hunts are. If anyone knows more about these hunts and or any outfitters that offer these types of hunts it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

As already mentioned

Wild Lion = Born into the wild with no human intervention. These lions at times can and might have been darted to have GPS collars added for research processes

Wild Managed Lion = Wild born Lion into large fenced enclosures with no human interaction. I believe there’s also a segment about “re-wilded” lions which were captive bred lions that were introduced to select game reserves and areas to help reestablish a population without the aid of human intervention.

Captive Bred Lions (CBL) = Lions born and bred via human intervention. These can include lions bred for sport hunting purposes, cub petting, or select game reserves. CBL lions will always have some form of human interaction/intervention.

USFWS allows for the importation of Wild Lions and Wild Managed Lions. Both of these are on a case by case basis and neither is a guarantee. Example, at present USFWS is only approving sport hunted Wild Lions from Mozambique if hunted in Niassa. A sport hunted lion elsewhere in Mozambique isn’t/hasn’t been approved by USFWS, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t be without the appropriate documentation and evidence to demonstrate how the hunting of that individual animal benefited the lion species as a whole. An example of this would be if/when Mark chooses to hunt the first Lion in Coutada 11 following their reintroduction.

Conversely a sport hunted Wild Managed Lion from South Africa, COULD be approved by USFWS. There have been several hunts over the last few years from a couple of different outfitters however, I’m not aware of the USFWS approving any of them. That doesn’t mean they haven’t, there aren’t any pending, and/or won’t approve one. You need to be willing to take the risk that the outfitters supplied information and documentation demonstrates how the hunting of that unique animal benefits the species and area.

Like @375Fox mentioned, if a sport hunted wild managed lion is something you’re interested in make sure you ask A LOT of questions. I’d also reach out to conservation force ahead of time. The outfitter should be able to provide all the data and evidence to you/them before you depart so the conservation force lawyers can review and give you an opinion on whether the hunting of that lion meets or exceeds the requirements established by USFWS. Every wild managed lion hunt I’ve seen/been offered has been around the same price as a Wild Lion Hunt (six figures). Not all of the outfitters could provide all the info I asked for/about. The first outfitter I’d reach out to regarding a wild managed lion for importation is CVS. Any $15k wild managed lion hunt would automatically raise suspicion from me since many CBL Lion Hunts go for that price or more. The exception would be a lioness hunt, but I would be VERY cautious since many wild managed lionesses are sterilized in an effort to better manage/control the population.

 

[Moody808]

As already mentioned

Wild Lion = Born into the wild with no human intervention. These lions at times can and might have been darted to have GPS collars added for research processes

Wild Managed Lion = Wild born Lion into large fenced enclosures with no human interaction. I believe there’s also a segment about “re-wilded” lions which were captive bred lions that were introduced to select game reserves and areas to help reestablish a population without the aid of human intervention.

Captive Bred Lions (CBL) = Lions born and bred via human intervention. These can include lions bred for sport hunting purposes, cub petting, or select game reserves. CBL lions will always have some form of human interaction/intervention.

USFWS allows for the importation of Wild Lions and Wild Managed Lions. Both of these are on a case by case basis and neither is a guarantee. Example, at present USFWS is only approving sport hunted Wild Lions from Mozambique if hunted in Niassa. A sport hunted lion elsewhere in Mozambique isn’t/hasn’t been approved by USFWS, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t be without the appropriate documentation and evidence to demonstrate how the hunting of that individual animal benefited the lion species as a whole. An example of this would be if/when Mark chooses to hunt the first Lion in Coutada 11 following their reintroduction.

Conversely a sport hunted Wild Managed Lion from South Africa, COULD be approved by USFWS. There have been several hunts over the last few years from a couple of different outfitters however, I’m not aware of the USFWS approving any of them. That doesn’t mean they haven’t, there aren’t any pending, and/or won’t approve one. You need to be willing to take the risk that the outfitters supplied information and documentation demonstrates how the hunting of that unique animal benefits the species and area.

Like @375Fox mentioned, if a sport hunted wild managed lion is something you’re interested in make sure you ask A LOT of questions. I’d also reach out to conservation force ahead of time. The outfitter should be able to provide all the data and evidence to you/them before you depart so the conservation force lawyers can review and give you an opinion on whether the hunting of that lion meets or exceeds the requirements established by USFWS. Every wild managed lion hunt I’ve seen/been offered has been around the same price as a Wild Lion Hunt (six figures). Not all of the outfitters could provide all the info I asked for/about. The first outfitter I’d reach out to regarding a wild managed lion for importation is CVS. Any $15k wild managed lion hunt would automatically raise suspicion from me since many CBL Lion Hunts go for that price or more. The exception would be a lioness hunt, but I would be VERY cautious since many wild managed lionesses are sterilized in an effort to better manage/control the population.

Sounds like my initial thoughts of lion hunting being outside my comfort zone with respect to cost still stands. Nonetheless, I'm glad I asked the question and appreciated you folks taking the time to share the knowledge.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Sounds like my initial thoughts of lion hunting being outside my comfort zone with respect to cost still stands. Nonetheless, I'm glad I asked the question and appreciated you folks taking the time to share the knowledge.

Your most cost effective method is getting lucky in Namibia with a PAC opportunity, followed by leftover quota at the end of the year in somewhere like Zim, Zambia, Moz, Tanz, etc. The later can happen while you’re in country (like it did to me in Zim) or on very short notice.

The Namibia PAC happened to me for both Lion and Elephant while on a PG Hunt during Covid times. I opted to mainly chase elephants because the trophy fee was 1/5th the price but 20/20 hindsight I’d should’ve ponied up on the lion and focused 100% there. Not all outfitters will have opportunities at a PAC if one arises. They need to be located in close proximity to the areas with Lion/Leopard/Elephant and have experience with them. An outfitter super close to Windhoek will have a lower chance than one bordering Etosha or Bushman Land. It’s typically a handful of outfitters who normally get the call first and they’ve generally pre screened their clients to see who might be willing to take advantage of an opportunity like this. It’s one of the reasons I will ALWAYS take a 375 with me. If booking in Namibia again I’d make sure I booked with an outfitter close to those areas and PAC would be something id ask about.

 

[Moody808]

Your most cost effective method is getting lucky in Namibia with a PAC opportunity, followed by leftover quota at the end of the year in somewhere like Zim, Zambia, Moz, Tanz, etc. The later can happen while you’re in country (like it did to me in Zim) or on very short notice.

The Namibia PAC happened to me for both Lion and Elephant while on a PG Hunt during Covid times. I opted to mainly chase elephants because the trophy fee was 1/5th the price but 20/20 hindsight I’d should’ve ponied up on the lion and focused 100% there. Not all outfitters will have opportunities at a PAC if one arises. They need to be located in close proximity to the areas with Lion/Leopard/Elephant and have experience with them. An outfitter super close to Windhoek will have a lower chance than one bordering Etosha or Bushman Land. It’s typically a handful of outfitters who normally get the call first and they’ve generally pre screened their clients to see who might be willing to take advantage of an opportunity like this. It’s one of the reasons I will ALWAYS take a 375 with me. If booking in Namibia again I’d make sure I booked with an outfitter close to those areas and PAC would be something id ask about.

This definitely sounds like something I can try and pursue. When speaking with outfitters I will ask about their PAC history which is not something that would have occurred to me before this thread so thank you. Namibia was already on my list of places I want to safari so this just all the more reason to try and make that happen.

 

[Russ16]

I have researched this myself. @wesheltonj encapsulated the definitions very well. So speaking specifically about South Africa, there is legal wild lion hunting that occurs every so often in the Greater Kruger area called the APNR, Associated Private Nature Reserves. These are typically baited hunts, CITES exportable and similar in cost to wild lion hunts in other African countries. The last one I was able to research in the APNR in 2018 cost approximately 60k. Also VERY politically sensitive. There is a private joke, if the lion has a “name” probably don’t kill it.

Then we have what you may be referring to, “wild managed lion” that reside in very small numbers in Private Big Five game reserves adjacent to the Greater Kruger. Researching how some of these lion are managed in these private reserves, the science involved and research papers, the various biological considerations have given me a headache.

These are not captive bred lion but they do live in a fenced Big Five Reserve. Only a very small number can be maintained. They do hunt and kill wild game present on the reserves hence the very small number of lion, just a few lion on one Big Five Reserve I know of. They are primarily there for tourism and not hunting.

It is seldom that one will be offered to hunt, nor do I fully understand yet how one could be legally exported to a CITES country like the U.S., I need to research this further. If I were given the opportunity to hunt a non exportable one I would if the cost weren’t prohibitive. My research reveals that a “problem” lion at one of these private Big Five reserves that needs to be removed will most likely be offered to a local hunter only, guided by a PH.

Then there is CBL-Captive Bred Lion in SA which has already been explained and I have no interest in hunting one.

I think the best bet for a lower priced wild lion hunt is a lioness hunt in Zimbabwe or Namibia, or a late season cancellation wild lion hunt in Zimbabwe if you are able to drop everything and go on short notice.

I thought I read that they no longer hunt lioness in Zimbabwe.

 

[BJH65]

I thought I read that they no longer hunt lioness in Zimbabwe.

In late 2024, October I believe, Earnest Dyason of Spear Safaris offered an amazing cancellation hunt right here on AH for exportable wild male lion, non exportable lioness, bull elephant and 4 non exportable buffalo all for 45k- Oct through end of year in Zimbabwe. Add on leopard 10k, exportable elephant 10k and buff 5k at additional cost. No one was able to take him up on it and offer was subsequently rescinded. Look it up. I definitely wanted too take advantage and other AH members as well because it could have been divided up with more than one hunter to ease individual cost but I had just got back from an African hunt and just could not do it. I’m basing it on that but to be honest I’m not sure?

Anyway, these are the type of late season cancellation hunts that would be awesome to take advantage off if one were again able to just drop and go.

 

[dogcat1]

Brendon is spot on with his first post on where/what/when on lion.

A couple other thoughts and observations -

1. PAC hunts may not be what you think. Often these are not Problem Animals. They are left over hunts or late permit hunts and sold as PAC. We wll would like to think we, the hunting public and amatuers, get the call for this but it is a different hunt altogether. If it is truly a problem animal, the local game officials and PH's nearby do these hunts to get them done quickly and without injury. No one on this site has the experience to truly be the lead person in a PAC hunt for any dangerous game.

2. End of season "specials" are good deals cost wise. However, they are normally left over or unshot quota that has already been sold once and the hunter was unsuccessful. To me, if the first hunter was unsuccessful during prime time, how often would us amatuers be during the harder times, in the heat and when the animals have been hunted all season. If may be a legit offering but you need to realize quotas are set in advance, they are sold in advance and the "leftovers" are really not "leftover". Be prepared for a hard hunt with lower chance of success.

3. Good deals are often "not". You get what you pay for. If you truly want a full mane lion, then you go to Bubye or a ranch in Zambia or a very limited permit hunt in Namibia or roll the dice in Tanzania. You save your money, got the best place with the best lion PH and hunt until you kill one. Otherwise, you will come home disappointed and poorer for the experience.

4. RSA is a great destination. RSA basically saved plains game hunting and white rhinos and bontebok and other animals from extirpation. However, RSA is NOT real, wild lion hunting. If you are hunting an enclosure where lions are located, they are not "wild". That is why you will kill one virtually everytime you go there. If you want to kill a big lion or a couple that look great, go to RSA but you will miss the traditional lion hunting experience by a long ways. Same goes for buffalo in nearly all of RSA. Yes, buffalo are bred there, yes they are fairly wild, but no, they are not free range and cannot get away from you.

 

[lhook7]

This is the first time I have heard of “wild managed lions.” How does the farmer afford to let these wild lions eat his other game animals for 6 or 7 years until it is old enough to shoot and still charge so much less than a truly wild lions?

 

[375Fox]

1. PAC hunts may not be what you think. Often these are not Problem Animals. They are left over hunts or late permit hunts and sold as PAC. We wll would like to think we, the hunting public and amatuers, get the call for this but it is a different hunt altogether. If it is truly a problem animal, the local game officials and PH's nearby do these hunts to get them done quickly and without injury. No one on this site has the experience to truly be the lead person in a PAC hunt for any dangerous game.

2. End of season "specials" are good deals cost wise. However, they are normally left over or unshot quota that has already been sold once and the hunter was unsuccessful. To me, if the first hunter was unsuccessful during prime time, how often would us amatuers be during the harder times, in the heat and when the animals have been hunted all season. If may be a legit offering but you need to realize quotas are set in advance, they are sold in advance and the "leftovers" are really not "leftover". Be prepared for a hard hunt with lower chance of success.

3. Good deals are often "not". You get what you pay for. If you truly want a full mane lion, then you go to Bubye or a ranch in Zambia or a very limited permit hunt in Namibia or roll the dice in Tanzania. You save your money, got the best place with the best lion PH and hunt until you kill one. Otherwise, you will come home disappointed and poorer for the experience.

4. RSA is a great destination. RSA basically saved plains game hunting and white rhinos and bontebok and other animals from extirpation. However, RSA is NOT real, wild lion hunting. If you are hunting an enclosure where lions are located, they are not "wild". That is why you will kill one virtually everytime you go there. If you want to kill a big lion or a couple that look great, go to RSA but you will miss the traditional lion hunting experience by a long ways. Same goes for buffalo in nearly all of RSA. Yes, buffalo are bred there, yes they are fairly wild, but no, they are not free range and cannot get away from you.

I’m not sure you know how problem animal hunts are done in Namibia. If an animal is an immediate danger to people in area, there will likely be no permit issued. The game department will handle it themselves. If there is a cattle killing lion or rogue elephant bull, an exportable problem animal permit will possibly be issued after an investigation so landowners or community can recover some cost. It’s not a marketing technique. It’s more common in very early season during rains than later in season.

 

[dhughes66]

Is there any lion hunting in Botswana anymore?