How dangerous is dangerous hunting?

Hunt anything

AH enthusiast
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
415
Reaction score
713
Media
1
I had to look back and see what this thread was about , all hunting can be dangerous. Now to the topic at hand I do believe as hunters we should support any legal hunt or methods. My view of what is ethical is different than other peoples and I try not to impose them on others I would not hunt a CBL, run a mt lion or bear and shoot them out of a tree but have no problem with those that do as long as it is legal in that jurisdiction.
 

Tanks

AH legend
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
2,939
Reaction score
7,605
Media
110
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Or is the problem (from your perspective) that the lion 'lived his life in a cage or small fenced-in compartment?" How small does the "compartment" have to be to be too small for you?

The RSA standard is 400 sq. m. (4,305 sq. ft.) for the enclosure or approximately 1/10 of an acre. My house cat has more room to roam at home. :ROFLMAO:

This shouldn’t be called hunting. It should be called lion harvesting or lion shooting so a distinction can be made between it and hunting to reduce the dissension between hunters. This is a farming practice with a unique harvesting method is all it is. Lion cubs are an industry. Lion bones to China are an export. “Hunting” falls in between.

I totally agree. When one hunts a lion in the wild, portions of the daily fees and trophy fees go to the communities, the outfitter also has to provide resources to the communities around the concessions (schools, clinics, anti-poaching efforts etc. etc.). The CBL industry serves the lion farmer and the outfitter that buys the lion and marks it up for the fearless "Bwana" coming from overseas to kill it. And it is a kill, not a hunt. Hunt implies that there is a chance the lion could escape.

Now, full disclosure. Some years ago, I was tempted to "order" a lion from RSA. A black maned mature lion, top of the line for maybe $25K or so, a bargain for such a specimen. At the time I was given the impression that they were managed lions in the wild that had 50K+ acres to roam free and age, such was my naivete. I had no idea that they were being raised in enclosures smaller than an average house. I talked to some people, did research and found out the real truth. Some time later SCI banned the practice of selling those type of hunts at the shows and USA banned imports.

Now, people should know better. Yes, Instagram/Facebook followers and people coming to one's house looking at the trophy pictures might never know that one's big trophy lion was a CBL. If one can be proud of that knowing it, then more power to the big Bwana.
 

mrpoindexter

AH fanatic
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Messages
658
Reaction score
1,072
Deals & offers
1
Media
75
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, NFAA
Hunted
Namibia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, UAE, California
The RSA standard is 400 sq. m. (4,305 sq. ft.) for the enclosure or approximately 1/10 of an acre. My house cat has more room to roam at home. :ROFLMAO:
That is the minimum for enclosure per animal, as per SAPA:
Size Minimum size per enclosure is as prescribed by the relevant provincial legislation. SAPA recommends the following:  Minimum size of 400m2 per animal should be available.

Generally, they will have many cats together, so the enclosure is quite a bit larger. I recall a giraffe hunt I did near the Waterberg mountains and the ranch also had a CBL program there (but they didn't hunt there - I think those are all sold to hunt in the Kalahari). They had maybe 8 or so lionesses in their enclosure, which would make the enclosure closer to a full acre. There were also multiple enclosures as the males were kept separate at the time I was there and I did see them move the lions from enclosure to enclosure to rotate their scenery or to manage them - I am not really sure how they did it as I was only by the cats for a little while as we waited for our local guide to come along with us for the giraffe hunt.

I just decided to look them up on google earth. What an amazing tool for things like this! They had 4 pens that are 625 sq. m for what looks like their birthing pens. There are also 9 pens that are each about 10,000 square meters. No street view option in these remote areas, unfortunately. I have actually used this and other tools to check ranches before I hunt on them, letting me identify property size, how large the fenced area is and if there are sub fences inside the boundry dividing parcels down even more.

I went back and looked through my old photos. Below is a picture of some of the lionesses in their enclosure. Also I have a photo of some young sable antelope (the young sable have a reddish coat before they turn black, while the roan have a tan coat when they are young). I really do fail to see how people can be so up in arms over the lion photo but totally ok with the sable photo. For the record, I am ok with both photos. Neither show anything illegal.

IMG_0467.JPG
IMG_0476.JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:

PARA45

AH legend
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
3,713
Reaction score
11,107
Media
82
Articles
4
Hunting reports
Africa
4
USA/Canada
3
Member of
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Hunted
South Africa, Nicaragua, FL, CA, SD, GA, SC, CO
Why do we have to be so argumentative about one type of hunt vs. the other. I know it's our right to have an opinion(s), and well, you know what they say about opinions. If the hunt is done legally and in an ethical way, then let it be. If you have the money to afford a wild lion hunt, vs. a CBL hunt, good for you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have that option. Or if CBL is not your thing, then good on you I respect that, but also respect others who have hunted these animals legally and ethically.

Why do we criticize CBL hunting, but we are ok to bait a lion or leopard, and basically shoot it out of the tree? Early this month I hunted a CBL, and let me tell you, that tracking a lioness in their own backyard and in two ft tall grass was very intimidating. Then include a heard of buffalo to this hunt, and the pucker factor took another level.

There are shady outfitters and hunters everywhere, but we generalize and pile all the CBL outfitters in the same category. Why? We are acting like the anti's, one hunter does one bad thing, now all the hunters are bad, and we need to ban that type of hunts. How many jumped into conclusion and pointed the finger at the Doc that shot and killed Cecil without having all the facts??

We need to be united regardless of what type of hunt you can afford, regardless of what of method you use to hunt (legally). If we continue down this path, all we will have one day will be pictures of the hunts we wish we could do, because the anti's will win.
 

375Fox

AH elite
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Pennsylvania
Media
135
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Europe
1
Hunted
Zambia, Namibia, South Africa
Why do we have to be so argumentative about one type of hunt vs. the other. I know it's our right to have an opinion(s), and well, you know what they say about opinions. If the hunt is done legally and in an ethical way, then let it be. If you have the money to afford a wild lion hunt, vs. a CBL hunt, good for you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have that option. Or if CBL is not your thing, then good on you I respect that, but also respect others who have hunted these animals legally and ethically.

Why do we criticize CBL hunting, but we are ok to bait a lion or leopard, and basically shoot it out of the tree? Early this month I hunted a CBL, and let me tell you, that tracking a lioness in their own backyard and in two ft tall grass was very intimidating. Then include a heard of buffalo to this hunt, and the pucker factor took another level.

There are shady outfitters and hunters everywhere, but we generalize and pile all the CBL outfitters in the same category. Why? We are acting like the anti's, one hunter does one bad thing, now all the hunters are bad, and we need to ban that type of hunts. How many jumped into conclusion and pointed the finger at the Doc that shot and killed Cecil without having all the facts??

We need to be united regardless of what type of hunt you can afford, regardless of what of method you use to hunt (legally). If we continue down this path, all we will have one day will be pictures of the hunts we wish we could do, because the anti's will win.
What other hunting practice is it widely acceptable to farm raise in small enclosures, introduce to larger area the week (or maybe I’ll believe 30 days) prior, then have a hunter come in and kill it? With no intention of a self sustaining population? As much as I disagree with intense game ranching for sable, buffalo, and other species at least they are typically stocked to partially self sustaining herds. CBL lions are purely put and take. The justification is always it’s affordable.
The difference of a wild lion over a CBL lion isn’t the method of take. It’s where the money goes. The 2 or 3 wild lions taken from a 100k acre area generates money for anti-poaching, stop human encroachment, general protection of other species. Without these funds the area suffers, seen once lion importation became very difficult. The 20, 50, 100(?) CBL lions taken each year from a single 10k acre property just form part of farming economy to farm more lions not conservation value. The area would be a normal game ranch without hunting CBL lions. Shooting CBL lions isn’t adding additional protections to the ranch.
As I said in earlier posts, separate this from hunting by calling it farming or harvesting my objection mostly goes away. There is demand for this activity and there is potentially conservation value in supplying a legal trade in lion bones to China. However, calling it hunting and the marketing tactics before it was fully exposed have tarnished it forever. Hunters could have fixed it first, but now South Africa will be banning it in future. Showing non-hunters actually make laws and decide hunting if we don’t take we proper actions first. Especially in this case, since CBL lion shooting is potentially mixed with other industries outside hunting such as cub petting, lion bone exports, other farming supply chain.
 

PARA45

AH legend
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
3,713
Reaction score
11,107
Media
82
Articles
4
Hunting reports
Africa
4
USA/Canada
3
Member of
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Hunted
South Africa, Nicaragua, FL, CA, SD, GA, SC, CO
I guess we can argue this until the cows come home. I'm no expert, and I don't claim to be one, and this CBL hunt (shooting as you call it) is my only experience. But according to what you are saying about CBL shooting/hunting, then the same can/could be said about hunting wild plains game over high fence plains game? Where is that money going?
 

375Fox

AH elite
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Pennsylvania
Media
135
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Europe
1
Hunted
Zambia, Namibia, South Africa
I guess we can argue this until the cows come home. I'm no expert, and I don't claim to be one, and this CBL hunt (shooting as you call it) is my only experience. But according to what you are saying about CBL shooting/hunting, then the same can/could be said about hunting wild plains game over high fence plains game? Where is that money going?
Yes the same thing can be said. There are properties I’d say the high fence definitely adds conservation value to protect and develop what’s inside and other properties that I’d say have crossed the line into commercial farming. The line is unfortunately not clear with high fence plains game. I do think it’s clear with CBL lions though.
 

375Fox

AH elite
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Pennsylvania
Media
135
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Europe
1
Hunted
Zambia, Namibia, South Africa
I guess none of the money paid into CBL hunts doesn’t go into the local economy and the operator keeps it in his pocket?
The same as farming cattle, goats, or farming any other animal goes into the local economy, but it’s not conservation funding.
 

putter97127

AH senior member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
68
Reaction score
100
Media
4
Hunted
South Africa
To bring the thread back on topic, lol.... I absolutely love hunting with my wife, but after reading "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" several years ago, I have always been extremely hesitant to take my wife to Africa to hunt....
 

Tanks

AH legend
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
2,939
Reaction score
7,605
Media
110
Hunting reports
Africa
1
...CBL lions are purely put and take. The justification is always it’s affordable.
Yep.
If you have the money to afford a wild lion hunt, vs. a CBL hunt, good for you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have that option

Is everyone supposed to have that option by creating a market for cheap CBL lions? “A Chicken in Every Pot” thinking for hunting lions?

One thing that was mentioned in the past that CBL lions take pressure off of wild lion hunting. That is not true as the wild lion supply (as in licenses available) is limited. Secondly, there is not much of an overlap between hunters that would shoot CBL lions vs hunters that would hunt wild lions.
 

MarkB

AH fanatic
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
696
Reaction score
1,350
Location
BC Canada
Media
20
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Member of
NFA, SCI, DU, CCFR, BCWF, African Gazete
Hunted
Zimbabwe, SA, Namibia, BC, AB, Ont
Why do we have to be so argumentative about one type of hunt vs. the other. I know it's our right to have an opinion(s), and well, you know what they say about opinions. If the hunt is done legally and in an ethical way, then let it be. If you have the money to afford a wild lion hunt, vs. a CBL hunt, good for you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have that option. Or if CBL is not your thing, then good on you I respect that, but also respect others who have hunted these animals legally and ethically.

Why do we criticize CBL hunting, but we are ok to bait a lion or leopard, and basically shoot it out of the tree? Early this month I hunted a CBL, and let me tell you, that tracking a lioness in their own backyard and in two ft tall grass was very intimidating. Then include a heard of buffalo to this hunt, and the pucker factor took another level.

There are shady outfitters and hunters everywhere, but we generalize and pile all the CBL outfitters in the same category. Why? We are acting like the anti's, one hunter does one bad thing, now all the hunters are bad, and we need to ban that type of hunts. How many jumped into conclusion and pointed the finger at the Doc that shot and killed Cecil without having all the facts??

We need to be united regardless of what type of hunt you can afford, regardless of what of method you use to hunt (legally). If we continue down this path, all we will have one day will be pictures of the hunts we wish we could do, because the anti's will win.
Well said Sir. I cannot believe here we are in 2022 and some hunters prefer to attack other hunters, hunting methods and styles because it "rubs them wrong". If its legal then its OK. Ethical is a slippery slope that will allow the antis ammo to stop what we love sooner. Who are you to dictate to others your ethical beliefs? And why would you want to? We are all hunters, one united front if we are to participate for generations. I see no difference in CBL or NA farms that offer species. indigenous or introduced, or even the farmer, hunter, land owner who plants a food crop, has his cameras and blinds and goes after "big 9" annually. ALL are legal and OK with me.

As for OP on how dangerous is dangerous game hunting? That depends on many things, most already spoken to in thread, how close shots are, hunter involved in follow up, animals habituated to people and many more.

I have hunted 4 of the big 5, and I will say that I never had any lay awake at night moments on any of them. I cannot say the same the night before I embarked on a solo goat or sheep backpack hunt here at home. Weather, terrain and actual hunt make them much more dangerous. At least to me.

MB
 

John Wasmuth

AH enthusiast
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
352
Reaction score
989
Location
Mountain Home, Texas
Media
5
Hunting reports
USA/Canada
1
Which is why I don’t argue on the internet with people I don’t know and use made up names instead of the real one. It pointless. There are certain things I find unsporting like shooting swimming animals, like deer ducks hippos, etc., but if it’s legal, you want to do it, have at it. It’s senseless and counter productive. Nobody is going to change any one’s mind either way.
 

Scott CWO

AH elite
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,795
Reaction score
4,980
Deals & offers
1
Media
94
Articles
2
Hunting reports
Africa
2
USA/Canada
1
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, WSF, RMEF, GSCO, and NRA
Hunted
Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique x3, Tanzania and CAR. Tajikistan, Canada, Mexico, AK, WY, NM, SD, CO, UT, AZ, NV
The level of danger is inversely proportional to how well you place the first shot.
Very incompetent hunter on the video. Wounds, misses and then drops his rifle as he jumps out of the way. Then grabs his rifle and just sits on the ground instead of immediately getting up to shoot. Idiot.
 

mrpoindexter

AH fanatic
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Messages
658
Reaction score
1,072
Deals & offers
1
Media
75
Hunting reports
Africa
3
Asia/M.East
1
Member of
SCI, NFAA
Hunted
Namibia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, UAE, California
The difference of a wild lion over a CBL lion isn’t the method of take. It’s where the money goes. The 2 or 3 wild lions taken from a 100k acre area generates money for anti-poaching, stop human encroachment, general protection of other species. Without these funds the area suffers, seen once lion importation became very difficult. The 20, 50, 100(?) CBL lions taken each year from a single 10k acre property just form part of farming economy to farm more lions not conservation value. The area would be a normal game ranch without hunting CBL lions. Shooting CBL lions isn’t adding additional protections to the ranch.
I have shot sable and wildebeest on the same ranch as people were hunting CBL. I think the money went to the exact same places - the land owner, PH, trackers, ranch staff, breeder and then those people spend their money, some of it locally and some of it mail ordering something that isn't produced locally.

All wild free ranging animals should have some portion of revenues going to local communities, like Zimbabwe has done with their very successful CAMPFIRE program. The thing is, CBL cannot be released into the wild. They are necessarily released onto fenced properties and so the economics for them fallows the economics for all fenced ranches. Private property and land owner managed revenue streams. CBL on those properties are just like buffalo, sable and impala.

The sad reality is there isn't much in the way of free range anything in South Africa. If there was, it likely would be devoid of wildlife unless South Africa changed their conservation model to something more like Zimbabwe or North America, which are based on public ownership of wildlife and management via government oversight and regulation. That works well in the USA and Canada. It does not work well in Africa due to the level of corruption that prevents benefits from filtering down to the local level, which is why Zimbabwe had to create their CAMPFIRE program and cut so much of the corruption out. I have no delusions that South Africa would fare any better than Zimbabwe on corruption and anybody who has spent any time in RSA would almost certainly agree with me.

South Africa's model of private ownership for wildlife has been very successful there and also in large parts of Texas and Argentina. I think it is good to have multiple models to choose from as one size certainly does not fit all. Now, when a country wants to implement a hunting based conservation model, they have multiple options and can debate and discuss and then finally choose one that best fits their reality on the ground in their country.

We already see many hunters who look down on estate hunting. If it isn't free range, it isn't hunting is a belief that is deeply ingrained in many hunter's mindsets. Those are the hunters the animal rights people love - the ones that they can turn on the other hunters and shut down half of hunting. They have a long term goal and that goal is to end hunting for all people and force Veganism on the world. Many of the people in that movement don't even realize that is where they are being led, much like many people who support socialism don't realize where that road leads - they cannot think more than 1 move ahead in chess and just see the immediate benefit and are oblivious to the long term costs. Once CBL is dead and gone, the focus will be on CB something else and they will probably go with something iconic or charismatic. Probably not buffalo because they look too much like livestock to people who don't know better. Maybe they will try and stop the hunting of zebra and giraffe or maybe they will just wait until there is an opportunity to sieze. Perhaps you or a friend will accidentally, in our quest for pure wild unfenced hunting, shoot an animal that turns out to have a collar we couldn't see. Sure, it will be a legal hunt, but that animal will cease to be "research specimen LP-246-077B and will suddenly be renamed Louis. He will be given a back story and you will find yourself asshole of the world with people picketing your dental office or wherever you work, get death threats, lose your job because of the backlash your employer doesn't want to face or have your business run into the ground if you own your own company.

And when the press reaches out to the head of the country's conservation program and ask them about the death of Louis, the most famous Zebra Unicorn in Wakanda, he can say "Who? Never heard of him" and it still won't matter. The marketing machine will be running. And you will be running. And most of the hunters around will say, "Yeah, he is a dick. I am not like him - I don't believe in his form of hunting. Fuck that guy." We already saw people in the hunting community push one of their own under the bus. Don't kid yourself. If you fall into the ARA crosshairs, you are next. How many hunters will come to your aid and how many will just try to distance themselves from you? We are full of people who say we need to stand up to cancel culture. Then we kick CBL hunters in the nuts and shove them into oncoming traffic and think we are part of the solution when instead, we are just what Joseph Stalin referred to as useful idiots.

I don't mean to be attacking anybody here, but just trying to get them to realize that we need to follow the Reagan doctrine of "thou shalt not speak ill of any other conservative" and apply it to our own.

And back to the topic of how dangerous Dangerous Hunting can be? Go ask Walter Palmer.
 

daawg1963

AH veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2017
Messages
124
Reaction score
102
Location
washington state
Media
2
Member of
sci and boone and crockett
Hunted
mexico africa ak id nm co or ca mt wa
I have a lion safari in a few months and I was wondering how dangerous a dangerous hunt really is, are there any statistics or proportion of people injured or killed per year?
a wounded lion is indeed as dangerous as it gets ...... shoot straight all good
 

John Wasmuth

AH enthusiast
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
352
Reaction score
989
Location
Mountain Home, Texas
Media
5
Hunting reports
USA/Canada
1
I have shot sable and wildebeest on the same ranch as people were hunting CBL. I think the money went to the exact same places - the land owner, PH, trackers, ranch staff, breeder and then those people spend their money, some of it locally and some of it mail ordering something that isn't produced locally.

All wild free ranging animals should have some portion of revenues going to local communities, like Zimbabwe has done with their very successful CAMPFIRE program. The thing is, CBL cannot be released into the wild. They are necessarily released onto fenced properties and so the economics for them fallows the economics for all fenced ranches. Private property and land owner managed revenue streams. CBL on those properties are just like buffalo, sable and impala.

The sad reality is there isn't much in the way of free range anything in South Africa. If there was, it likely would be devoid of wildlife unless South Africa changed their conservation model to something more like Zimbabwe or North America, which are based on public ownership of wildlife and management via government oversight and regulation. That works well in the USA and Canada. It does not work well in Africa due to the level of corruption that prevents benefits from filtering down to the local level, which is why Zimbabwe had to create their CAMPFIRE program and cut so much of the corruption out. I have no delusions that South Africa would fare any better than Zimbabwe on corruption and anybody who has spent any time in RSA would almost certainly agree with me.

South Africa's model of private ownership for wildlife has been very successful there and also in large parts of Texas and Argentina. I think it is good to have multiple models to choose from as one size certainly does not fit all. Now, when a country wants to implement a hunting based conservation model, they have multiple options and can debate and discuss and then finally choose one that best fits their reality on the ground in their country.

We already see many hunters who look down on estate hunting. If it isn't free range, it isn't hunting is a belief that is deeply ingrained in many hunter's mindsets. Those are the hunters the animal rights people love - the ones that they can turn on the other hunters and shut down half of hunting. They have a long term goal and that goal is to end hunting for all people and force Veganism on the world. Many of the people in that movement don't even realize that is where they are being led, much like many people who support socialism don't realize where that road leads - they cannot think more than 1 move ahead in chess and just see the immediate benefit and are oblivious to the long term costs. Once CBL is dead and gone, the focus will be on CB something else and they will probably go with something iconic or charismatic. Probably not buffalo because they look too much like livestock to people who don't know better. Maybe they will try and stop the hunting of zebra and giraffe or maybe they will just wait until there is an opportunity to sieze. Perhaps you or a friend will accidentally, in our quest for pure wild unfenced hunting, shoot an animal that turns out to have a collar we couldn't see. Sure, it will be a legal hunt, but that animal will cease to be "research specimen LP-246-077B and will suddenly be renamed Louis. He will be given a back story and you will find yourself asshole of the world with people picketing your dental office or wherever you work, get death threats, lose your job because of the backlash your employer doesn't want to face or have your business run into the ground if you own your own company.

And when the press reaches out to the head of the country's conservation program and ask them about the death of Louis, the most famous Zebra Unicorn in Wakanda, he can say "Who? Never heard of him" and it still won't matter. The marketing machine will be running. And you will be running. And most of the hunters around will say, "Yeah, he is a dick. I am not like him - I don't believe in his form of hunting. Fuck that guy." We already saw people in the hunting community push one of their own under the bus. Don't kid yourself. If you fall into the ARA crosshairs, you are next. How many hunters will come to your aid and how many will just try to distance themselves from you? We are full of people who say we need to stand up to cancel culture. Then we kick CBL hunters in the nuts and shove them into oncoming traffic and think we are part of the solution when instead, we are just what Joseph Stalin referred to as useful idiots.

I don't mean to be attacking anybody here, but just trying to get them to realize that we need to follow the Reagan doctrine of "thou shalt not speak ill of any other conservative" and apply it to our own.

And back to the topic of how dangerous Dangerous Hunting can be? Go ask Walter Palmer.
I wrote a piece years ago titled “ Cannibals and useful idiots” in regards to hunters against hunters. I’ll attempt to find it. I more than understand exactly what you are saying.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
43,744
Messages
873,127
Members
77,303
Latest member
GorgonStare
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

TheSayHeyKid wrote on shark_za's profile.
I have a pile of never fired .35 Rem brass if you are interested. What quantity are you looking for?

Billy
GAME 4 AFRICA SAFARIS wrote on Robharris's profile.
Hi Rob

Trust you are well,
It would be great if I could quote on a safari for you guys.

Please let me know if you are intereted to hunt with Game 4 Africa Safaris. We have many reviews and hunting reports on this forum if you would like to check us out.

Please let me know if you have any questions for me. We are based in the Eastern Cape of South Africa.

Kind Regards
Wik Coetzee
Game 4 Africa Safaris
hunt 65 wrote on cal pappas's profile.
Hey Cal. Would you consider $950 for the Win. Thanks.
Safari Dave wrote on Dhunt713's profile.
For me, last August, the people in the JNB wanted to see a paper document.
What covid passport app is best to use? U.s.a to Johannesburg?
 
Top