How dangerous is dangerous hunting?

[Rare Breed]

Usual snickering comments duly dismissed (they do not bring much to the debate), I have always been quite fascinated by the debate, and I think that the argument is misplaced...

Block size...
From a purely hunting perspective, one of the real questions is the size of the block. If anything is shot on a 1,000 acre plot, whether it be a guaranteed 48" sable, 58" Kudu, 48" Buffalo, or "A grade" lion, it is not much of a hunt per my personal standards...

Tracking...
Since I am not interested in participating in the shooting of a guaranteed animal, I have never shot on a 1,000 acre plot.

What I have done is hunt in various fenced (because it is a legal requirement) properties in South Africa ranging from 20,000 acres to 50,000 acres; hunt in the unfenced mountains of the Karoo; and hunt in unfenced communal lands or similar designations.

In all cases some folks do the hunting on truck, and some even shoot from the truck where legal. Regardless of whether it is fenced or unfenced, animals are wild or bred, this too is not much of a hunt per my personal standards...

I do my hunting on foot, and I cannot tell any difference between tracking bred Buffalo in 20,000 Limpopo fenced acres, bred Kudu in Eastern Cape 50,000 fenced acres, wild Kudu in Eastern Cape 200,000 unfenced acres, or wild Elephant in 1,000,000 Zimbabwe unfenced communal land acres. The reality is that a day of tracking only covers a minuscule part of any such land.

Baiting...
Wild lion hunting nowadays is often a matter of either chance encounter, most of the time while driving, in which case the hunt is often started and done in a matter of minutes and does not involve much other that shooting; and more commonly baiting, in which case, again (and without dismissing the fascinating and engrossing art of selecting a bait site and the delicious angst of sitting in a blind), it does not involve much other than shooting.

So, whether there is more hunting, or less, in tracking a lion on foot in 20,000 fenced acres, or in sitting in a bait blind in 1,000,000 unfenced acres, is an interesting question...

Animal behavior...
Since releasing a drugged lion the day before the shooting is illegal, and walking to such drugged lion to dispatch him with bow or rifle is obviously not hunting, this is not what we are discussing here.

What are the behavior differences between a lion released 30 days ago on a 20,000 acres fenced property and that has been hunting to feed himself, or a buffalo that has roamed 50,000 acres for 6 months, and their wild counterparts, I do not have enough experience to say.

What seems relatively certain based on pros and clients reports alike, is that both generally try to avoid man, and both will fight if provoked.

In summary...
Assuming that the block is of decent size (e.g. 20,000 acres and more), and that the animal has been on it long enough to behave naturally (e.g. feed and roam) on it, the quality of the hunt, and the danger of it, is in my experience a lot what the hunter makes of it.

Reading Ruark, his wild lion hunting in 1950's Kenya wilderness, involved rolling off a Land Rover driving slowly by, waiting for it to get the required legal distance away, crawling a few yards, and shooting a digesting lion. it does not seem a lot more heroic to me than tracking on foot a bred lion on 20,000 fenced acres in Limpopo...

Well written and said

 

[Tanks]

...There is no fake buffalo charge - it ends with one well placed shot or one dead or severally mauled pH or client - there are no other permutations to consider. Plan carefully, stay alert and stay scared - failure to achieve these rules and you’re on a one wat ticket to another world.
Lions should be called the king of fear.

That is one of the reasons I always hunt with a stopping caliber rifle instead of a marginal caliber rifle in .375 or similar when going after DG. Stuff happens and I'd rather not depend on anyone else.

 

[Red Leg]

That is one of the reasons I always hunt with a stopping caliber rifle instead of a marginal caliber rifle in .375 or similar when going after DG. Stuff happens and I'd rather not depend on anyone else.

Rapier or broadsword.

I have absolute confidence that I can thread a 300 gr .375 through any opening to the exact spot that needs hitting on a buffalo. If a buffalo or lion is charging (or elephant), there is little to choose between a .375 and .416. The shot needs to be precise. Stopping (or more precisely, "turning") rifles begin with a .470 (many would say a .500). I derive no pleasure in lugging one around (much less something like a .577), and much prefer increasing the likelihood that the first shot is exactly where it needs to be.

I should note the gun room currently contains a .470, 500/416, and a .450. I shoot them all well.

Both a rapier and a broadsword are lethal. They are simply wielded differently for the same intent. I much prefer the rapier. Nothing wrong with lugging around a broadsword.

From the "Talisman" by Sir Walter Scott (1825) The educated reader may substitute rapier for scimitar.

‘Had I not,’ said Saladin, ‘seen this brand flaming in the front of battle, like that of Azrael, I had scarce believed that human arm could wield it. Might I request to see the Melech Ric strike one blow with it in peace, and in pure trial of strength?’
‘Willingly, noble Saladin,’ answered Richard; and looking around for something whereon to exercise his strength, he saw a steel mace held by one of the attendants, the handle being of the same metal, and about an inch and a half in diameter. This he placed on a block of wood.
The anxiety of De Vaux for his master’s honour led him to whisper in English, ‘For the blessed Virgin’s sake, beware what you attempt, my liege! Your full strength is not as yet returned, give no triumph to the infidel.’
‘Peace, fool!’ said Richard, standing firm on his ground, and casting a fierce glance around; ‘thinkest thou that I can fail in his presence?’
The glittering broadsword, wielded by both his hands, rose aloft to the King’s left shoulder, circled round his head, descended with the sway of some terrific engine, and the bar of iron rolled on the ground in two pieces, as a woodsman would sever a sapling with a hedging-bill.
‘By the head of the Prophet, a most wonderful blow!’ said the Soldan, critically and accurately examining the iron bar which had been cut asunder; and the blade of the sword was so well tempered as to exhibit not the least token of having suffered by the feat it had performed. He then took the King’s hand, and looking on the size and muscular strength which it exhibited, laughed as he placed it beside his own, so lank and thin, so inferior in brawn and sinew.
‘Ay, look well,’ said De Vaux in English, ‘it will be long ere your long jackanape’s fingers do such a feat with your fine gilded reaping-hook there.’
‘Silence, De Vaux,’ said Richard; ‘by Our Lady, he understands or guesses thy meaning, be not so broad, I pray thee.’
The Soldan, indeed, presently said, ‘Something I would fain attempt, though wherefore should the weak show their inferiority in presence of the strong? Yet each land hath its own exercises, and this may be new to the Melech Ric’. So saying, he took from the floor a cushion of silk and down, and placed it upright on one end. ‘Can thy weapon, my brother, sever that cushion?’ he said to King Richard.
‘No, surely,’ replied the King; ‘no sword on earth, were it the Excalibur of King Arthur, can cut that which opposes no steady resistance to the blow.’
‘Mark, then,’ said Saladin; and tucking up the sleeve of his gown, showed his arm, thin indeed and spare, but which constant exercise had hardened into a mass consisting of nought but bone, brawn, and sinew. He unsheathed his scimitar, a curved and narrow blade, which glittered not like the swords of the Franks, but was, on the contrary, of a dull blue colour, marked with ten millions of meandering lines, which showed how anxiously the metal had been welded by the armourer. Wielding this weapon, apparently so inefficient when compared to that of Richard, the Soldan stood resting his weight upon his left foot, which was slightly advanced; he balanced himself a little, as if to steady his aim; then stepping at once forward, drew the scimitar across the cushion, applying the edge so dexterously, and with so little apparent effort, that the cushion seemed rather to fall asunder than to be divided by violence.
‘It is a juggler’s trick,’ said De Vaux, darting forward and snatching up the portion of the cushion which had been cut off, as if to assure himself of the reality of the feat; ‘there is gramarye in this.’
The Soldan seemed to comprehend him, for he undid the sort of veil which he had hitherto worn, laid it double along the edge of his sabre, extended the weapon edgeways in the air, and drawing it suddenly through the veil, although it hung on the blade entirely loose, severed that also into two parts, which floated to different sides of the tent, equally displaying the extreme temper and sharpness of the weapon, and the exquisite dexterity of him who used it.

 

[Safari Dave]

Back in 2007 when I hunted South Africa for the first time, 5 of the 6 PH's in camp said they would not hunt a fenced buffalo, because they thought it was too dangerous.

 

[Safari Dave]

That is one of the reasons I always hunt with a stopping caliber rifle instead of a marginal caliber rifle in .375 or similar when going after DG. Stuff happens and I'd rather not depend on anyone else.

I agree completely.

Even though I consider a .416 an adequate, but not ideal stopper.



You never know what might happen in the moment with your PH.

I wouldn't hunt dangerous game, if I didn't know I was a good shot, know my rifle very well, know how to stand my ground, get level with the incoming animal, and know how to shoot to stop.

I'm certain that many wealthy, but inexperienced, hunters have done DG hunts and placed bad shots that have ended in casualties and deaths of PH's and trackers.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Listen to your PH and don't go all Leroy Jenkins and you should have a good hunt.

When you get out of the truck, and see a lion track that looks about the size of a basketball in the Kalahari sand...trust me when I say your heart will get pumping!

 

[BnC 04]

Listen to your PH and don't go all Leroy Jenkins and you should have a good hunt.

Had a good chuckle from that one. Good ol' L.J.

 

[One Day...]

In regards to lion, the current standard (feel free to pipe in and correct what I have read) is 7 days per SAPA.

https://sapredators.co.za/images/photos/SAPA-Final-Norms-and-Standards-For-Hunting-Oct2017.pdf

Their recommendation for enclosure is 400 sq. meters while being raised and 2,500 acres for the hunting area.

Pretty low standards compared to 30 days and 20,000 acres, though I would call that insufficient as well as a personal opinion (time not area). Lion density in Tanzania wild areas ranges from 3.3 to 15+ (at Parks) per 100km sq. (24K acres). Tanzanian study link is below for those interested.

http://wildlife-baldus.com/download/Tanzania%20lion%20Conservation%20Status.pdf

What's interesting is some outfitters advertising that they are one of the few that follow SAPA guidelines without letting prospecting clients knowing how woefully inadequate those guidelines really are.

At the end of the day it is up to the client. No one is going to know that his "lion trophy" hunt was a CBL back at home. The client will know and if he is satisfied with that, then more power to him.

You are making a good point about the low standards set by SAPA (South African Predator Association). I have looked into them myself and long decided that they do not meet my own personal standards...

The 1,000 hectares (2,471 acres) hunting area (section 10.3) and 7 days release period prior to the hunt (section 11.2) are, I readily admit to SAPA's credit, an immense progress over some practices that reportedly have happened in the past in terms of couple hundred hectares and lion still under the effect of sedatives, but these minimums are nowhere near what they need to be to insure a true hunt, in my own personal standards.

This being said, it is my experience that at least a few reputable operators exist out there who go well above and beyond SAPA requirements. To give a specific example, Hans de Klerk hunts lions on his 18,903 acres Wilzenau property in the Kalahari near the Botswana border, typically releases a few every two months depending on what he has booked for the following few months, and is committed to not hunt a specific lion (there are few enough to know them individually) for at least 30 days after its release.

This seems acceptable to me. Sure, 30 days does not return a lion to wildness, no period of time ever does (based on my experience in the US with Mexican Wolf reintroduction) but 30 days are enough for a lion to either starve to death, or return to at least its predatory behavior.

Then, to each our own indeed, but I am personally comfortable with a tracking hunt on foot on 20,000 acres for a lion that had to return to killing for eating for at least 30 days, and I think that I personally favor it over seating in a blind over a bait to shoot a supposedly wild but in fact largely people-habituated "problem control animal" (PAC) on communal or conservancy land, or a tourist-educated animal straying off a National Park to a juicy bait, as many if not most of the lions taken in unfenced areas are today.

So, I am with you, the SAPA stamp of approval does not excite me much, but guys like Hans de Klerk and a few others do. To me these are hunts like the tuskless cow hunts: not as exhilarating maybe as the old days, but true hunts nonetheless, and a heck of a lot better than nothing for those who hunt them

As to those who can afford a $60,000 truly wild lion hunt (including likely a buff and hippo baits) in the Selous or Moyowosi, all the power to them indeed

 

[C.W. Richter]

The level of danger is inversely proportional to how well you place the first shot.

And don't re-create that shot on an Oryx, either. ALL game, when wounded can be very dangerous!

 

[yarettlopez]

I also share the idea that a hunt on foot is more exciting and feels more real than hunting a lion on bait like a whitetail deer on corn.

I personally have no problem hunting on high fences since there are no public lands in Mexico and most ranches are fenced.

Reading your comments just makes me more and more excited and I can't wait to set foot in Africa for the first time

 

[C.W. Richter]

Amazing video, the guy that fell down, was he shot ? Incredible how fast a lion can be!!

No, i believe he was weighed down by excrement in his pantelones and forced to the ground by his outcries. While I am def not anti-Mark Sullivan, I believe this particular PH invited the whole interesting ordeal by his magic words "Wait, wait, wait...I think he'll come..." The hunter didn't seem to boil that down to "Get Ready!" lol He needed to refresh on the wonderful short-range technique of "In a fight, Front Sight!"

 

[One Day...]

Unless he changed his voice and faked a different accent I do not think that the PH saying "Wait, wait, wait, wait..." is Mark Sullivan, and my personal interpretation from this situation is that he likely did not want the client to take a frontal shot that far away, but wait for a broadside shot. This makes complete sense to me.

What happened between the first shot and the charge, I do not know, but to me this video illustrates very well the biggest danger out there: people shooting. Depending on who is in the party, I would think that when 4 folks are cross firing at point blank range at a running lion amongst themselves, the risk of being shot is at least as high as the risk of being mauled...

It also illustrates three other classic points:

1) A charging lion is faster than a galloping horse over a short run (and I would add that a charging captive bred lion on fenced property is just as fast as a wild lion on unfenced land...).

2) When a charge does occur, wait until the animal is really close so that the shot has a higher probably to be a hit...

3) What is better: two quick shots from a double or 4 (or 5) shots from a repeater?

 

[Tanks]

...

As to those who can afford a $60,000 truly wild lion hunt (including likely a buff and hippo baits) in the Selous or Moyowosi, all the power to them indeed

Actually, you are looking at over six figures for those. If you include the bait etc. then a Zim lion hunt is close to $80K as well.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Also, mosquitoes are the most dangerous species in Africa. They kill more people than any other species.
But danger elements is what makes it exceptional trip.

Mosquitoes, tsetse flies, no excuses, be prepared....

 

[Accidental Villain]

Without mingling myself too much into the CBL v Wild lion debate, plot sizes etc. just this:

I'm sure all would agree that the preferred way of hunting would be walk and stalk in endless completely wild and untouched country, the way we often picture it in our dreams, the way it is often portrayed in romantic novels about hunting in Africa. However all of this is moot today, as this is a fantasy. We can only approximate parts of it.

I for one, prefer tracking and stalking my quarry than sitting in a blind. The sitting in a blind I already know too well here in Europe. In Africa, I want to cover some miles and see the country side.

agreed, absolutely. There is most certainly practical reasons why hunting from a blind is so much used in Europe and with somewhat different, but still practical reasons why "freerange" lion hunts often are done from a blind. I definitely prefer track & stalk myself. Organising bearhunts in Western Canada I had almost the same ethical dilemma. I organised all my hunts as spot and stalk, break camp every second/third day covering a lot of miles. Experiencing spectacular nature and wildlife, but it was hard and challenging. Cost was high. Results was pending on luck, skill, weather, ability to perform a good stalk, react fast to capitalise on opportunities +++. At the same time I knew I could double even maybe triple my number of clients by organising early spring baiting of bears offering 100% success rate at a lower price.. I did`nt of course.. not for me.

Anyways,,lions are impressive animals. As a kid in Kenya I often preferred to hang with the trackers when hunting, eager to learn tracking and spotting skills. One time we where hunting elephant with an English hunter we drove up to known water holes checking for promising elephant tracks. At one of those waterholes I as usual jumped out of the Land Rover accompanying one of the trackers and proceeded down to the water, both of us focusing on the ground...then all of a sudden there comes a scream from the Land Rover...don`t know what the word was,but everything told me that this was bad...very bad..! Both me and tracker froze...I looked up and straight into the eyes of a big male lion behind some grass on top of the bank surrounding the waterhole. What an impressive and frightening sight..! we started to back of slowly, I heard the Land Rover rev up, lot of commotion as the guns were brought out, when I looked up it was gone.. Several decades later I still have goosebumps recalling..#@@`!..

On a little lighter note.. DG guns might be dangerous too...;D
On the very same hunt we found a good tusker. After a long stalk we could see it standing under an akasia flapping ears.. tusks were good, definitely a shooter. I was left about 200yds away on a small height/ridge overlooking the whole scene. I saw them approach the tusker, my father to the left with the other tracker, "NN" in the middle and my fathers friend to the left.
"NN" lined up for the shot and then... B-BOOM, the elephant disappeared in the bush, I focused on the elephant, then on my father and tracker who were staring at the place where "NN" used to be.. I heared Barizza the tracker mumbling something in total disbelief.....
"NN" had wanished..
Apparently "NN" had been standing on the edge of a depression in the terrain and fell into it double discharging his 470 NE. Wish I had it on film Anyways,,the elephant went down 60-100 meters away. First shot hit good. Everybody happy although "NN" had thorn up his thumb on the top lever, bruised chin, hurting fingers and hurt pride. But the exellent trophy made up for it.

 

[Hunt anything]

No, i believe he was weighed down by excrement in his pantelones and forced to the ground by his outcries. While I am def not anti-Mark Sullivan, I believe this particular PH invited the whole interesting ordeal by his magic words "Wait, wait, wait...I think he'll come..." The hunter didn't seem to boil that down to "Get Ready!" lol He needed to refresh on the wonderful short-range technique of "In a fight, Front Sight!"

Also in the video they had plenty of time for shooting sticks setting them up for a disaster, it appears the lion is 50 or so yards away and taking an off-hand shot is totally irresponsible ( for most of us anyway)

 

[Tanks]

... There is most certainly practical reasons why hunting from a blind is so much used in Europe and with somewhat different, but still practical reasons why "freerange" lion hunts often are done from a blind. I definitely prefer track & stalk myself. Organising bearhunts in Western Canada I had almost the same ethical dilemma. I organised all my hunts as spot and stalk, break camp every second/third day covering a lot of miles. Experiencing spectacular nature and wildlife, but it was hard and challenging. Cost was high. Results was pending on luck, skill, weather, ability to perform a good stalk, react fast to capitalise on opportunities +++. At the same time I knew I could double even maybe triple my number of clients by organising early spring baiting of bears offering 100% success rate at a lower price.. I did`nt of course.. not for me.

...

Baiting lion or leopard in Africa is much different than baiting bears, deer feeders etc.. First there is a lot of work involved stalking for tracks etc. to choose a bait site. Also, it is not guaranteed that a lion or a leopard will hit a bait site period. That is why multiple sites are chosen. Not to mention baits do not last that long especially in late season when it starts getting hotter.

Next, by law lions and leopards have to be over a certain age and male. In case of a leopard it is a lot harder to tell gender than a lion. Hence, trail cams. You shoot a lion or a leopard outside of a legal age or gender then one is looking at heavy fines and possible prison terms etc.. That is why, at least in Zimbabwe, there is also a Parks Ranger to give his final approval for the shot. Once the animal is shot a lot of photos and measurements are taken and then sent out for confirmation of age as well.

Of course, in CBLs do not have the above issues as they are property.

 

[Tanks]

Also in the video they had plenty of time for shooting sticks setting them up for a disaster, it appears the lion is 50 or so yards away and taking an off-hand shot is totally irresponsible ( for most of us anyway)

Depends. For elephants I never set up sticks (I do practice with them). I have told my PHs that I will take the shot off-hand. In a fluid situation it might make sense to shoot off-hand as well. However, I also use the hasty sling technique for off-hand shooting which is almost as steady as sticks. Below is a simple video demonstrating the technique.

 

[Hunt anything]

I use the hasty sling as well the only DG I’ve shot off-hand was an elephant at 10 yards. Buffalo were off sticks, just saying most of us are better with as much ground contact as possible be it sticks or my butt or prone.

 

[Accidental Villain]

Baiting lion or leopard in Africa is much different than baiting bears, deer feeders etc.. First there is a lot of work involved stalking for tracks etc. to choose a bait site. Also, it is not guaranteed that a lion or a leopard will hit a bait site period. That is why multiple sites are chosen. Not to mention baits do not last that long especially in late season when it starts getting hotter.

Next, by law lions and leopards have to be over a certain age and male. In case of a leopard it is a lot harder to tell gender than a lion. Hence, trail cams. You shoot a lion or a leopard outside of a legal age or gender then one is looking at heavy fines and possible prison terms etc.. That is why, at least in Zimbabwe, there is also a Parks Ranger to give his final approval for the shot. Once the animal is shot a lot of photos and measurements are taken and then sent out for confirmation of age as well.

Of course, in CBLs do not have the above issues as they are property.

Baiting lion or leopard in Africa is much different than baiting bears, deer feeders etc.. First there is a lot of work involved stalking for tracks etc. to choose a bait site. Also, it is not guaranteed that a lion or a leopard will hit a bait site period. That is why multiple sites are chosen. Not to mention baits do not last that long especially in late season when it starts getting hotter.

Next, by law lions and leopards have to be over a certain age and male. In case of a leopard it is a lot harder to tell gender than a lion. Hence, trail cams. You shoot a lion or a leopard outside of a legal age or gender then one is looking at heavy fines and possible prison terms etc.. That is why, at least in Zimbabwe, there is also a Parks Ranger to give his final approval for the shot. Once the animal is shot a lot of photos and measurements are taken and then sent out for confirmation of age as well.

Of course, in CBLs do not have the above issues as they are property.

I don`t call myself accidental Villain here for no reason;p Wifey thinks it suits me fine,,

Of course there`s a huge difference between baiting bears in the spring and baiting lion.
I should have formulated slightly different. I meant it the other way. CBL and baiting bears are comparable in a couple of ways I think. Operator can guarantee almost 100% success rate and its comparably much cheaper than the alternative. And I think the ethics are much the same. Not necessarily thinking bad about organizers of such hunts, but its definitely not for me.