Guaranteed hunts

[jeff]

On a couple of other threads the topic came up about guaranteed hunts and it seem like it deserved a thread of it's own. Many posts seem to have a negative attitude towards guarantees in hunting, but guarantees can come in many ways. Many outfitters have a refund on animals not taken in a package, that is a guarantee. Some baited hunts guarantee active baits, some hound hunts for bear and cougar guarantee success. Like all things the fine print must be read, on bear and cougar the guarantee is considered met if they tree a legal animal, it might be a female or a smaller animal, if you want to pass and continue to hunt the rest of days with the hope of doing better that's fine but the guarantee is already done. I've seen elk hunts where they guarantee a shot opportunity of 300 yards or less, Caribou hunts where if the migration didn't show you could come back the next year at half the price. It seems many of these guarantees are to show you that you're not ghost hunting. If the guarantee is from a reputable outfitter I think it's worthwhile, but it's only as good as the outfitter.
What other opinions and thoughts are out there?

 

[siml]

I could guarantee clients certain animals, but I would never. IF an animal is not hunted/taken NO charge, bottom line.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello jeff,

Great topic, thanks for posting it.

Generally speaking, I stay away from outfits that guarantee any sort of sure success to me, because it takes away some of the mystique / chance of going hungry in hunting.

Rather I prefer outfits that control very large leases or concessions of land known to have abundant game present.

Proper management / not overly-high hunting pressure in a given area is of course also another quite necessary thing to separate me from my deposit money.

Even if the hunting lease is high fenced, as long as it is many thousands of hectares, with self sustaining game present in decent numbers, I might be interested.

And of course, not high fenced is even so much the better for me personally, even though it's not a deal breaker really, just adds to the mystique / possible hungry factor (real or imagined).

When guarantees are brandished in advertisements, right or wrong I always jump to the conclusion that the animals are farm raised / hand fed and kept in a smallish enclosure, maybe even half tame.

I don't care if others find that sort of set-up acceptable and very satisfying, doesn't offend me at all but, it is not anything I will participate in - no thanks.

Cheers,
Velo Grump.

 

[thi9elsp]

I guess part of why I like the pricing structure for Africa hunts vs. NA is one pays for the daily rates. Then if one wounds an animal or is successful one pays the trophy fee. I don't like the idea of guarantee on 'shot opportunity' as what I consider opportunity could be different from the PH. Also, why I think some of the high end NA hunts are unappealing to me. What if you hit a spell of bad weather and you can't get to where the animals are located? I doubt most operations can afford to do a hunt the next year to make up for mother nature.

 

[twilly24]

I wanted to start this topic. Because a guarantee was offered on this site. I personally think this is where alot of people come home unhappy with a hunt. It's a word that's used alot on ad's. And then in someway or another an outfitter or booking agent weasels there way out of it by saying read the fine print. I've seen it happen more often then most people think. It's not something I want with a hunt. But if it's offered on a hunt I will spend time asking lots of questions about it. Mainly because a guaranteed kill doesn't seem like a hunt I want in the first place.

 

[Fire652]

I guess part of why I like the pricing structure for Africa hunts vs. NA is one pays for the daily rates. Then if one wounds an animal or is successful one pays the trophy fee. I don't like the idea of guarantee on 'shot opportunity' as what I consider opportunity could be different from the PH. Also, why I think some of the high end NA hunts are unappealing to me. What if you hit a spell of bad weather and you can't get to where the animals are located? I doubt most operations can afford to do a hunt the next year to make up for mother nature.

This is always an issue. I love turkey hunting and currently am working on taking a turkey in each state with a bow. Last year was a major setback. I went to Georgia and the property was hit by a tornado. The hunting was terrible. I then went to Oklahoma two weeks latter and another tornado tore apart the leases the outfitter had. I hunted hard but no luck. I am going back again this year. This is just part of the experience and I bought into the chance that bad weather will ruin a hunt at some point in my life.
This year I am going mountain lion hunting in Idaho. I am praying for a huge snow storm. If it does not happen then hopefully the dogs get the job done.
In saying all this I do like the price structure of Africa. However, in North America we do not have nearly the population densities (including variety in an area) that Africa has. I doubt an outfitter could make a living after paying all the government fees and access fees to charge a reasonable price on a daily fee

 

[K-man]

I don't think you can use the words "guarantee" and "hunt" in the same sentence. They cancel each other out.

 

[jeff]

I've been on three package hunts with no refunds if game was not taken. One in the EC with four animals and also unlimited warthogs, after eight days one hartebeest and one warthog sow was the bag. The other hunt was a management hunt for blue wildebeest cows and a couple of trophies. After days of hunting and not seeing cows I learned on the last day that there was only four cows left on the property! The 3rd hunt I only failed to only get one animal. Those experiences have made me gun shy of packages with no refunds for animals not taken, I don't mind not getting something I just don't want topay for something I don't get, day fees are fine just not trophy fees!

 

[jeff]

I don't think you can use the words "guarantee" and "hunt" in the same sentence. They cancel each other out.

I believe that's true as far as harvest goes but I would like a guarantee that what we are pursuing is indeed in the area.

 

[K-man]

I believe that's true as far as harvest goes but I would like a guarantee that what we are pursuing is indeed in the area.

I tend to agree with that but only so far as high-fenced hunts. I was in Zim last may and overrun with elephants. 400+. Been there 3 other times and would see a small herd every other day. They are free to come and go. No-one can guarantee opportunity on free-ranging animals. They can tell you the last x number of years we have had elephants here, but that doesn't mean they are here when you are.

 

[jeff]

I tend to agree with that but only so far as high-fenced hunts. I was in Zim last may and overrun with elephants. 400+. Been there 3 other times and would see a small herd every other day. They are free to come and go. No-one can guarantee opportunity on free-ranging animals. They can tell you the last x number of years we have had elephants here, but that doesn't mean they are here when you are.

Seeing elephant every other day is a far cry from not even seeing sign that is a month old. You make a good point as all hunts are different, I was really thinking of local elk hunts where they are hunting high country and the elk are down in the fields and that's the way it's been for the last several years, we call those unicorn hunts and there are a couple of outfits that seem to specialize in them. One outfitter told me he had 18 rifle clients that year and never killed a bull! His brochure is full of pictures of good bulls from the glory days.

 

[Royal27]

Interesting topic.

I think part of it comes down to what is gauranteed?

Your example of the caribou hunt and coming back at a discount is a great one. I'd sign up for a hunt like that. To me that shows confidence and a willingness to make it right if you have a bad hunt.

Now gauranteed kill or shot doesn't really thrill me. I want a chance of not coming back with something. I personally have little interest in "hunting" something that is guaranteed, especially a specific animal. Someone wants to do it then have at it, but it's not for me.

The other thing that I think is important is who is giving the guarantee? Do I know and trust them? I'd have to in order to accept the guarantee I think. I haven't been unfortunate enough to end up paying for a hunt with no/little game, although I did have one hunt where I thought the trophies were substandard. You live and learn and like @jeff said I don't think I'd ever do a package deal again, guarantee or not.

 

[Buckdog]

I am not against "guarantees" in some cases but the problem is who is holding the money! If the outfitter/PH/Booking agent has it all up front that guarantee can be of very little value if you need to invoke the guarantee. I have used some guarantees a few times when I was suspect that the outfitter might be trying to take me on a "unicorn" hunt as jeff said. those boys slink away fast when they are told if all is so wonderful then I will pay a low base fee and a trophy fee when we harvest the animal. Personally I have found elk/mule deer guides in the western united states to be some of the most unscrupulous lying pieces of work in existence and will not hunt in the western US without a guarantee period!
I like africa's pay as you go trophy fee per animal system don't find me the critters and the quality I want then I wont shoot and you wont get my money and I like that system a lot!!
clearly day fees in Africa might pay the overhead but da boys need us to pull the trigger a few times to make the $$

 

[enysse]

I don't think there are any guarantees in the USA, unless you are hunting behind a fence and there is price structure. They do this Texas a lot even on free range areas, they offer management hunts and price range hunts.

I have fairly good luck in Africa but I am forth right with the outfitter and explain what I'm looking for in a hunt. If I feel the hunt is not set up properly my wallet stays shut. I want a fair chase hunt still even if it's behind a fence.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I am more worried about being taken out west then I am in Africa. Seems there is a lot more horror stories. I think Africa gets more scrunity due to the expense and time involved.

Oh I did get taken in Tennessee! I put a 500 dollar deposit on a bear hunt. Good references, no red flags on the internet, some good reports. Guy had been in business maybe 4 years and I guess got in a cash bind and pretty much stop taking people. The agent called me and told me things went bad, and was trying to take legal action, the outfitter was telling me all was well, just pay the balance 2 week prior to me coming down. A month out, there were reports that people were showing up and he wasn't there, lodging wasn't reserved at the hotels as promised. So I told the outfitter to forget it and keep the deposit. A Tennessee sheriff called me and asked if I want to take action, I declined. I was out 500 and that hurt but the headaches and BS to follow would not have been worth it.

I guess the point here is the agent guaranteed we would get a bear treed during my hunt, lol.

 

[BnC 04]

In my personal opinion hunting and guarantee don't mix....I understand the broad reach a guarantee can cover but in respect to it combined with animals killed that's when I keep walking...
If you want a guarantee head to McDonalds, if you wanna HUNT, break open that safe, grab your preferred WMD and get to it.

 

[Vintageguy]

I guess part of why I like the pricing structure for Africa hunts vs. NA is one pays for the daily rates. Then if one wounds an animal or is successful one pays the trophy fee. I don't like the idea of guarantee on 'shot opportunity' as what I consider opportunity could be different from the PH. Also, why I think some of the high end NA hunts are unappealing to me. What if you hit a spell of bad weather and you can't get to where the animals are located? I doubt most operations can afford to do a hunt the next year to make up for mother nature.

I agree, I’ve always felt the daily rate with a trophy fee the fairest of all. If you do it that way then I feel they are confident of at least an opportunity and I think it gives extra incentive to work hard for that success.

 

[PaulT]

I remember someone say "that's why they call it hunting, not shopping".

If i wanted a guarantee i'd drive down to the supermarket, pick-up a packet of chops and pay at the register.

 

[Tanks]

I don't think there are any guarantees implied or otherwise in most USA hunts. On a bear hunt I did, there were 3 clients each with his own dog team and guide. I was the only one that treed a bear and was able to shoot it.

 

[curtism1234]

I view Africa (pg in particular and some dg) sort of like I do squirrel/rabbit hunting, deer hunting on the deer lease where deer are plentiful, pronghorn, bear on bait with a reputable outfitter. Yeah it is hunting and not shooting, but you are still pretty much guaranteed success barring a catastrophic series of events / weather