Future One-Rifle PG-DG Setup

[Tdsmith517]

Personally, I choose to leave the "stopping" business to my PH, should it come to that ... and so far it has not. If I do my job with 404 (or 375 H&H) it shouldn't. I am actually quite good at accurately placing running shots but presumably a PH would be more experienced. Sorry, no one will ever convince me a great big double rifle is the best weapon for hunting dangerous game ("hunting" being not the same as "stopping."). And definitely not the best for plains game. Obviously.

I think a large bore double is a far better weapon for dangerous game at distances under 75 yards. The problem is that the vast majority of people don’t practice enough because they are expensive to shoot and they can beat the snot out of you. There are a number of people on this forum who have become very proficient with the double. That instant second shot can mean everything. Heavy caliber doubles were made to hunt and kill dangerous game.

 

[SStomcat]

Many here have proposed the .375 H&H, and I agree it is probably the most ubiquitous and versatile caliber for the hunter who wants one rifle to cover both dangerous game and plains game.

I don’t own a .375, but I do have its cousin or perhaps its long distance cousin the 9.3x62. It can be loaded with 300-grain bullets for the heavier work, while 286 or 250 grain loads make it a very capable plains game rifle.

So I hear what you have to say, and I fully appreciate that the 9.3x62 does not meet the legal minimum for dangerous game in some countries. But adding another close cousin to the stable is something I may have to think long and hard about.

With that said, I’ll let it be known that I’m currently swinging more toward a .404 Jeffery. The .416 Rigby and .416 Remington Magnum are also very much in the game, so I’m not quite ready.

 

[SStomcat]

I think a large bore double is a far better weapon for dangerous game at distances under 75 yards. The problem is that the vast majority of people don’t practice enough because they are expensive to shoot and they can beat the snot out of you. There are a number of people on this forum who have become very proficient with the double. That instant second shot can mean everything. Heavy caliber doubles were made to hunt and kill dangerous game.

Yes Sir, but I'm talking 10 years from now but at the same time I do not want the rifle to sit in the safe. 10 years from now I'm positive I may not want to hunt with my 470 any more.I'm 58 BTW

 

[Tdsmith517]

Yes Sir, but I'm talking 10 years from now but at the same time I do not want the rifle to sit in the safe. 10 years from now I'm positive I may not want to hunt with my 470 any more.I'm 58 BTW

I was just answering my opinion to Ontario Hunter. I would go with a bolt rifle as a one rifle type weapon. But as a dedicated Dangerous Game rifle it would be a Double.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Yes, agree, I beleive you have experience with 404 Jeff. How would you compare recoil wise. I beleive for a well balanced gun it is less, but is it significantly less?

Loaded within its original velocity "window," the .404 Jeff has significantly less recoil with a 400grn bullet than does the .416 Rigby - and the 416 is typically comes in a heavier gun with a magnum size action.

Original .404J velocity with the 400grn bullet was 2125fps, as manufactured by Kynoch, versus the Rigby's 2350+fps for the 400grn load.

But out of real-world rifles, the 404 ammo was actually doing less than that. Kynoch's catalog velocity, or what today we call the "box-flap" velocity, was chronographed using a 28" factory test barrel. From the 23" or 24" barrels used in the game fields, that 400grn load was in the 1950fps-2000fps range.

Even at that velocity the 400grn load still killed all the Big Critters while imparting a very moderate amount of felt-recoil in standard size rifles. Maybe no worse than a .375 H&H firing typical 300grn ammo.

When Hornady produced its line of .404 400grn ammo (DGX & DGS), they chose to increase velocity to Rigby levels - 2350fps - which was totally unnecessary since that velocity won't kill any better than the original did, but will punish the shooter more.

The only issue with the .404 had nothing to do with velocity, but with occasional field reports of poor bullet performance. Today that's a non-issue since modern bullet tech is light-years from the projectiles these cartridges first used in the early 1900s.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

My one gun for everything in Africa would be my Rigby Big Game in 416 Rigby. I used it on everything from impala to buffalo on one trip. I have a 350gr load that shoots so close to the 400gr load that I don’t need to adjust anything. The Big Game is heavy but well balanced and I don’t find the recoil to be more than a CZ 375. However, I don’t think you can go wrong with a good bolt gun in 375 H&H or 416 Rigby.

Safe hunting

 

[BeeMaa]

Sorry, but no brand names, please.

What do you mean by this? Everyone is talking about brand names and specific models.

 

[SStomcat]

Loaded within its original velocity "window," the .404 Jeff has significantly less recoil with a 400grn bullet than does the .416 Rigby - and the 416 is typically comes in a heavier gun with a magnum size action.

Original .404J velocity with the 400grn bullet was 2125fps, as manufactured by Kynoch, versus the Rigby's 2350+fps for the 400grn load.

But out of real-world rifles, the 404 ammo was actually doing less than that. Kynoch's catalog velocity, or what today we call the "box-flap" velocity, was chronographed using a 28" factory test barrel. From the 23" or 24" barrels used in the game fields, that 400grn load was in the 1950fps-2000fps range.

Even at that velocity the 400grn load still killed all the Big Critters while imparting a very moderate amount of felt-recoil in standard size rifles. Maybe no worse than a .375 H&H firing typical 300grn ammo.

When Hornady produced its line of .404 400grn ammo (DGX & DGS), they chose to increase velocity to Rigby levels - 2350fps - which was totally unnecessary since that velocity won't kill any better than the original did, but will punish the shooter more.

The only issue with the .404 had nothing to do with velocity, but with occasional field reports of poor bullet performance. Today that's a non-issue since modern bullet tech is light-years from the projectiles these cartridges first used in the early 1900s.

Good to know, thanks for your thoughts.

 

[SStomcat]

What do you mean by this? Everyone is talking about brand names and specific models.

Fair enough. My original intent was to keep the discussion focused strictly on the caliber, rather than opening the proverbial can of worms that is Rigby vs. Heym vs. Parkwest vs. who-knows-what-else.

But then I did make a valiant attempt to corral the crowd back toward the caliber discussion…it did not work or I failed so I let it go

 

[SStomcat]

My one gun for everything in Africa would be my Rigby Big Game in 416 Rigby. I used it on everything from impala to buffalo on one trip. I have a 350gr load that shoots so close to the 400gr load that I don’t need to adjust anything. The Big Game is heavy but well balanced and I don’t find the recoil to be more than a CZ 375. However, I don’t think you can go wrong with a good bolt gun in 375 H&H or 416 Rigby.

Safe hunting

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Loaded within its original velocity "window," the .404 Jeff has significantly less recoil with a 400grn bullet than does the .416 Rigby - and the 416 is typically comes in a heavier gun with a magnum size action.

Original .404J velocity with the 400grn bullet was 2125fps, as manufactured by Kynoch, versus the Rigby's 2350+fps for the 400grn load.

But out of real-world rifles, the 404 ammo was actually doing less than that. Kynoch's catalog velocity, or what today we call the "box-flap" velocity, was chronographed using a 28" factory test barrel. From the 23" or 24" barrels used in the game fields, that 400grn load was in the 1950fps-2000fps range.

Even at that velocity the 400grn load still killed all the Big Critters while imparting a very moderate amount of felt-recoil in standard size rifles. Maybe no worse than a .375 H&H firing typical 300grn ammo.

When Hornady produced its line of .404 400grn ammo (DGX & DGS), they chose to increase velocity to Rigby levels - 2350fps - which was totally unnecessary since that velocity won't kill any better than the original did, but will punish the shooter more.

The only issue with the .404 had nothing to do with velocity, but with occasional field reports of poor bullet performance. Today that's a non-issue since modern bullet tech is light-years from the projectiles these cartridges first used in the early 1900s.

Yeah, who would haul around a 28" barrel dangerous game rifle? The field reports of poor bullet performance were largely (if not entirely) from Kynoch's early offering a 300 gr option. That cartridge was designed for hunting "thin skinned" animals (i.e. plains game). But too many tried using it for heavy dangerous game with predictably poor results. So 300 gr 404 ammo was dropped from production circa 1930s if I remember correctly.

You are right. With today's advancements in bullet and powder technology, I'm sure 300 gr 404J would work very well, even for dangerous game. But I'd want it gassed up so the copper bullets open up. Adding gas while reducing bullet weight should still keep the recoil tamed.

 

[RR 314]

My one gun for everything in Africa would be my Rigby Big Game in 416 Rigby. I used it on everything from impala to buffalo on one trip. I have a 350gr load that shoots so close to the 400gr load that I don’t need to adjust anything. The Big Game is heavy but well balanced and I don’t find the recoil to be more than a CZ 375. However, I don’t think you can go wrong with a good bolt gun in 375 H&H or 416 Rigby.

Safe hunting

So true on the Big Game (apologies for discussing a specific rifle). . I have one in .416 as well and the perceived recoil is less than most expect due to weight/styling. Same can be said for several other "factory" rifles. I have a similar rifle in .404 (relatively heavy) and think a .404J is perfect if one wants to step up a tad from .375 H&H.

 

[Hedge774]

the 416 Rigby for elephant and countries that the 9.3 isn't legal for DG and the 9.3 for countries that it is legal

I love that.

 

[DaddyFlip]

@SStomcat it isn't clear to me if your intent is to acquire the new rifle 10 years from now or to acquire it now for use in 10 years. I'm asking because I've been on the fence about listing for sale a 416 package deal and looking for a shove, so to speak. Fun topic BTW and lots of good answers.

 

[Hedge774]

@SStomcat it isn't clear to me if your intent is to acquire the new rifle 10 years from now or to acquire it now for use in 10 years. I'm asking because I've been on the fence about listing for sale a 416 package deal and looking for a shove, so to speak. Fun topic BTW and lots of good answers.

Please. Do. It.

 

[SStomcat]

@SStomcat it isn't clear to me if your intent is to acquire the new rifle 10 years from now or to acquire it now for use in 10 years. I'm asking because I've been on the fence about listing for sale a 416 package deal and looking for a shove, so to speak. Fun topic BTW and lots of good answers.

Order it now, take delivery sometime next year, and actually hunt with it. Then, perhaps a decade from now, it could become the one-rifle battery for both PG and DG.

At least that’s the theory. By then, I’ll probably have convinced myself that I need another rifle.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Order it now, take delivery sometime next year, and actually hunt with it. Then, perhaps a decade from now, it could become the one-rifle battery for both PG and DG.

At least that’s the theory. By then, I’ll probably have convinced myself that I need another rifle.

Don’t worry, all the enablers on here will help to convince you that you need another rifle
Gumpy