Fell in love with a working girl

[redriverjake]

If I had to purely speculate on what happened with the gun, I would suggest that the gun exhibited wear or damage and was a 26” or 28” gun. Cut back the barrels, move the front sight, re-regulate, thus equals reproof.

25” is an atypical barrel length for the original time period the gun was made. It is a desirable barrel length with today’s modern powders.

While anything is possible, I don’t think a chamber sleeve or a full length barrel sleeve is likely with such a high pressure caliber.

The ledger will ultimately tell the story when he gets it from University of Glasgow. Was it always a 470NE, but originally with 26” or 28” barrels? Or was it a smaller caliber such as 450NE or 450-400 that was re-bored? TBD, but I’d wager it was restocked and the barrels were cut down in 1989. I have no issue with either of those things, its a nice British gun.

In fact, it’s generally so clean and subdued, I’d be tempted to do a full restore Of the action with some modern engraving, CCH, and a reblack of the barrels. It’s a gun that would probably endure 100% restoration, and nothing would touch its equal for <$25,000 on the secondary market.

Thank you for the insight and I look forward to seeing how it all unfolds. If you don't mind, I'll shoot you a PM and continue a sidebar conversation? Cheers

 

[rookhawk]

Thank you. I'll definitely give updates at we go along. I had a box of Federal Swift A-Frames but although each barrel shot really well individually, the rifle didn't pair them well. I've got Superior loading me some stuff to try soon that should preform better as a whole.

I would definitely start with a load that mimics the ICI/Kynoch 1926 load data.

IMR3031 and a soft would be where i start. Then RL15 and a Soft if I cannot get good Regulation at 2050-2075 FPS.

 

[redriverjake]

The late 80's era reproof is perplexing to me as well. Can you provide a photo of the chamber/barrel face? Sleeving is the predominant means of restoring ruined rifle and shotgun barrels today. But, they can also be fully relined. This is a more exact effort on the part of the gunmaker but was probably the most common method in the eighties and nineties. A huge advantage is that the reline is essentially invisible, but if done in the UK, requires a reproof. If that is the case here, that essentially means you have an thirty-year-old early twentieth century rifle.

@rookhawk is exactly correct. ANCSL guns were made in all grades. Like the regular market, the majority were made in plainer grades. There were, after all, far more lieutenants and captains than Colonels and Generals.

I hope the provided photos help with the questions about a relining. I don't see any evidence of a sleeve job. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

 

[Pondoro]

If I had to purely speculate on what happened with the gun, I would suggest that the gun exhibited wear or damage and was a 26” or 28” gun. Cut back the barrels, move the front sight, re-regulate, thus equals reproof.

25” is an atypical barrel length for the original time period the gun was made. It is a desirable barrel length with today’s modern powders.

While anything is possible, I don’t think a chamber sleeve or a full length barrel sleeve is likely with such a high pressure caliber.

The ledger will ultimately tell the story when he gets it from University of Glasgow. Was it always a 470NE, but originally with 26” or 28” barrels? Or was it a smaller caliber such as 450NE or 450-400 that was re-bored? TBD, but I’d wager it was restocked and the barrels were cut down in 1989. I have no issue with either of those things, its a nice British gun.

In fact, it’s generally so clean and subdued, I’d be tempted to do a full restore Of the action with some modern engraving, CCH, and a reblack of the barrels. It’s a gun that would probably endure 100% restoration, and nothing would touch its equal for <$25,000 on the secondary market.

Basically you are right regarding barrel lenghts for the period being 26 - 28".. But there are exeptions..my WW1 era double have 23" barrels...no sleeving/reproof so original..it regulates perfectly with modern Kynoch at average 2158fps, this being a .475 3 1/4NE.. A very handy rifle in dense bush..

 

[rookhawk]

I hope the provided photos help with the questions about a relining. I don't see any evidence of a sleeve job. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

That looks like a cut back and re-regulated barrel. That’s what happened in 1989 I’d suspect.

If it shoots straight, no issue with that being done because it’s correctly proofed and the length of the barrels are completely suitable for its tasks.

 

[PCC600]

There are best grade ANCSL guns out there as well. It was effectively a buying group designed for the benefit of the British Armed Services akin to the PX at an American military base. If a general or admiral wanted a best grade Holland/Purdey/Boss type of gun, ANCSL may have had a wholesale relationship with one or more of the best makers that allowed the officer to get a better value on the gun than a member of the general public.

We cannot assume ANCSL automatically meant “field grade”, there are wonderful exceptions and most of them are “mid-grade” or better.

I have seen Army & Navy sidelock double rifles and shotguns . Best grade firearms in every respect . For what it is worth I think the rifle would most likely have gone to India rather than Africa . If you can find out the original owner you can also find out what regiment and the posting .

 

[PCC600]

If I had to purely speculate on what happened with the gun, I would suggest that the gun exhibited wear or damage and was a 26” or 28” gun. Cut back the barrels, move the front sight, re-regulate, thus equals reproof.

25” is an atypical barrel length for the original time period the gun was made. It is a desirable barrel length with today’s modern powders.

While anything is possible, I don’t think a chamber sleeve or a full length barrel sleeve is likely with such a high pressure caliber.

The ledger will ultimately tell the story when he gets it from University of Glasgow. Was it always a 470NE, but originally with 26” or 28” barrels? Or was it a smaller caliber such as 450NE or 450-400 that was re-bored? TBD, but I’d wager it was restocked and the barrels were cut down in 1989. I have no issue with either of those things, its a nice British gun.

In fact, it’s generally so clean and subdued, I’d be tempted to do a full restore Of the action with some modern engraving, CCH, and a reblack of the barrels. It’s a gun that would probably endure 100% restoration, and nothing would touch its equal for <$25,000 on the secondary market.

I cannot understand why you would restore it at all . If it is tight and the rifling is good leave it alone . I think it is a lovely rifle as it is .

 

[redriverjake]

That looks like a cut back and re-regulated barrel. That’s what happened in 1989 I’d suspect.

If it shoots straight, no issue with that being done because it’s correctly proofed and the length of the barrels are completely suitable for its tasks.

I shot her with some Federal Swift A-Frames at 25 and 50 yards off of a standing rest and this is what I got. It's the only fodder I have at the moment. The barrels are not crossing which I think is good news. I was in a bit of a hurry so I didn't set up my chronograph but I will next time. Superior Ammunition is loading me a "sample pack" of three different loads with North Fork softs to see if we can bring things together a little bit. I do reload myself but I haven't got the kit yet to load for 470 and I don't have the time to tinker with it before my season starts.

 

[frog stealer]

I shot her with some Federal Swift A-Frames at 25 and 50 yards off of a standing rest and this is what I got. It's the only fodder I have at the moment. The barrels are not crossing which I think is good news. I was in a bit of a hurry so I didn't set up my chronograph but I will next time. Superior Ammunition is loading me a "sample pack" of three different loads with North Fork softs to see if we can bring things together a little bit. I do reload myself but I haven't got the kit yet to load for 470 and I don't have the time to tinker with it before my season starts.

Try cranking your speed up a bit, that should pull the groups together.

 

[rookhawk]

Try cranking your speed up a bit, that should pull the groups together.

I would under no circumstances increase velocity above a Federal factory load with A-frames. They are way too high of pressure. I would go back to original Kynoch loadings using 3031 as a baseline. I’m thinking 77-78gr and 2gr of Dacron.

The regulating velocity will likely be around 2020fps-2050fps. (The federal is probably 2200fps)

 

[rookhawk]

I cannot understand why you would restore it at all . If it is tight and the rifling is good leave it alone . I think it is a lovely rifle as it is .

Because it’s been restored already.

 

[redriverjake]

Because it’s been restored already.

How would one go about doing that ? Who would you recommend doing the work ?

 

[Red Leg]

I now agree that it was likely cut back several inches. The barrels have a bit more separation than one would anticipate. I also see no evidence of a liner.

I shot her with some Federal Swift A-Frames at 25 and 50 yards off of a standing rest and this is what I got. It's the only fodder I have at the moment. The barrels are not crossing which I think is good news. I was in a bit of a hurry so I didn't set up my chronograph but I will next time. Superior Ammunition is loading me a "sample pack" of three different loads with North Fork softs to see if we can bring things together a little bit. I do reload myself but I haven't got the kit yet to load for 470 and I don't have the time to tinker with it before my season starts.

If you have never done this with a double before and blind development with Superior makes little progress, I would strongly suggest you send the rifle itself off to Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/. He will develop a regulating load and he represents a future supply as you need them. I agree with @rookhawk that faster is not smart with respect to factory loads. It is always best to come as close as possible to replicating the original load.

 

[frog stealer]

I now agree that it was likely cut back several inches. The barrels have a bit more separation than one would anticipate. I also see no evidence of a liner.

If you have never done this with a double before and blind development with Superior makes little progress, I would strongly suggest you send the rifle itself off to Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/. He will develop a regulating load and he represents a future supply as you need them. I agree with @rookhawk that faster is not smart with respect to factory loads. It is always best to come as close as possible to replicating the original load.

I recommend this…if they are already shooting apart, going with a slower load will just make them shoot further apart.

 

[SwampTrooper]

The late 80's era reproof is perplexing to me as well. Can you provide a photo of the chamber/barrel face? Sleeving is the predominant means of restoring ruined rifle and shotgun barrels today. But, they can also be fully relined. This is a more exact effort on the part of the gunmaker but was probably the most common method in the eighties and nineties. A huge advantage is that the reline is essentially invisible, but if done in the UK, requires a reproof. If that is the case here, that essentially means you have an thirty-year-old early twentieth century rifle.

@rookhawk is exactly correct. ANCSL guns were made in all grades. Like the regular market, the majority were made in plainer grades. There were, after all, far more lieutenants and captains than Colonels and Generals.

Willing to bet sleeved. I have an old army navy that was sleeved and re-proofed as well.

 

[rookhawk]

How would one go about doing that ? Who would you recommend doing the work ?

I’d pay Steve Bertram <$1000 to polish the action, barrels, and furniture. I’d have Frank Conroy retrace any engraving present, embellish the barrels with a gold band. Inlay gold wire in the ANCSL engraving on action, perhaps some light border engraving. <$1000. I’d then consider having turnbull CCH the action for a grand, and have the minor pits on the barrels tig welded. Then rust blue everything. Oh, and I’d have the muzzle engraved with a cross hatch pattern for $75. Probably have an rmr mount groove fitted into the rib for a QD mount.

Put $4000 into that gun, you’ll have a brand new English Rifle worth $20,000-$25,000.

It’s good. It’s clean. It would be modern functional art. It’s not original now, so why not enjoy it as a functional 100% restoration with a bit of thoughtful enhancement?

To have an identical one made new in Birmingham today would cost $80,000+ in similar finish.

 

[rookhawk]

I recommend this…if they are already shooting apart, going with a slower load will just make them shoot further apart.

I agree slowing current powder (I think federal uses 4350?) with fewer grains will not solve it. He needs to change powders to get this gun to regulate at acceptable pressure and velocity. Rl15, 3031, 4831, maybe even rl19.

Lots of load development ahead, but it will likely shoot lights out with one of the loads.

 

[meritman]

I wouldn’t expect you not to fall in love she’s an angel

 

[Boone66]

She is a really nice looker, you may have to have it regulated, or try it at longer range, mabe 75 yards to see if they get.closer.

 

[redriverjake]

I now agree that it was likely cut back several inches. The barrels have a bit more separation than one would anticipate. I also see no evidence of a liner.

If you have never done this with a double before and blind development with Superior makes little progress, I would strongly suggest you send the rifle itself off to Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/. He will develop a regulating load and he represents a future supply as you need them. I agree with @rookhawk that faster is not smart with respect to factory loads. It is always best to come as close as possible to replicating the original load.

I will certainly follow that advice if no progress is made with Superior. Thank you for sharing.