Fair chase vs game ranches

[BRICKBURN]

And it really sucks when you do that research and find out you were sold a pile a crap.

As far as USFWS, how many boots do the have on the ground trying to verify facts before the put up the restrictions?

We both know the answers to those.

That is why any of us making assumptions about fenced or unfenced areas creates a false sense of security.
1. It sucks no matter where you are taken advantage of. I applaud the OP for trying to learn so much in advance.

2. None. But, it does not stop the false assumptions anyone can make from that information does it?!

 

[JGRaider]

And it really sucks when you do that research and find out you were sold a pile a crap.

Sure does Bob. Same thing happened to me, by an outfitter and US rep that frequently posted on this very forum. Haven't seen them here in a couple of years now though, but it certainly does happen. It sure left a bad taste in my mouth for SA though, which is why I've been hunting Namibia lately.

 

[ActionBob]

Yea there are some good people in SA.. And then some real

In all fairness you hear horror stories from Namibia and Zimbabwe pretty regularly as well, and I'm sure they are everywhere. But there are just so many outfits in SA that perhaps the odds catch up.... And the accepted way of doing business in certain areas might make these guys actually believe they are doing things right? Definitely a buyer beware business, and as I said earlier, it can mean something different to each individual.

 

[wesheltonj]

My 2 cents, I live in Texas, I don't have a problem with fences high or low. The road that I drive on to get to my place, one rancher is high fenced to keep the deer out of his nice green fields. It does not work, every evening there are deer in those pastures. Fences don't stop anything that really wants in or out. About 30 miles south of me is a wild population of Warthogs, fences did not stop them either, (it would be nice if they move north).

My trip to RSA this summer will be on a game ranch, 24,000 acres that's more then fair chase to me and in the evenings I get to return to a nice climate controlled bedroom with a real bed.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Sure does Bob. Same thing happened to me, by an outfitter and US rep that frequently posted on this very forum. Haven't seen them here in a couple of years now though, but it certainly does happen. It sure left a bad taste in my mouth for SA though, which is why I've been hunting Namibia lately.

So, what happened?
Did you follow up on your hunt report?
The report of yours at Koedoeberg looks like a glowing report to me.

 

[billc]

Sometimes people get sold something just because they want to believe what they hear for someone. Even when they are told they are being sold a pile of crap by others. It does happen from time to time but the sign are are still there normally.

On this question by what is being said I can tell the poster with out a doubt there is very few fenced areas that will make him happy. With that said do not kid yourself that hunting a million acre area means your hunting a million acres.It is in the end all based on what you think will make you happy and sometimes just hearing that big acre number makes you think your getting a better or harder hunt.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Sometimes people get sold something just because they want to believe what they hear for someone. Even when they are told they are being sold a pile of crap by others. It does happen from time to time but the sign are are still there normally.
............

You becoming a shrink bill?
You pretty well described Cognitive Dissonance, which is can certainly be an issue.

 

[Erich]

Sometimes people get sold something just because they want to believe what they hear for someone. Even when they are told they are being sold a pile of crap by others. It does happen from time to time but the sign are are still there normally.

On this question by what is being said I can tell the poster with out a doubt there is very few fenced areas that will make him happy. With that said do not kid yourself that hunting a million acre area means your hunting a million acres.It is in the end all based on what you think will make you happy and sometimes just hearing that big acre number makes you think your getting a better or harder hunt.

I just don't want to hunt animals raised or bred by people for that purpose. I'd rather be told that all the wild game is in parks where you can't hunt it. I don't care if there is a fence, I'll hunt a farmers fields if that's where the animals choose to live. I don't want to have an animal sold to me. I don't care about record books and I don't care how big the horns are. I want a hunt like Roosevelt, or Selous, or Hemingway, or Percival, or Selby, or Bell etc. had. If that is impossible today I just need to know I guess.

 

[siml]

I have been wanting to comment on this post, but the poor DONKEY has been beaten so many times. One thing I have seen with a post like this is it starts to divide hunters against each other and gentlemen/ladies that is not a good thing with all the pressure we already have as hunters. There is a place for fenced hunting and there is a place for wild open hunting. If there's a species I am truly passionate about hunting, it is sable in their true enviroment, when I see posts of a sable hunt where they don't naturally occur, it would make my blood boil, but since this post started I have changed my mind. What about the 80 year old that would love to hunt a sable, he's not going to handle the roughness of Mozambique. But he could get his sable in one of these fenced areas, it will be his pride and joy. But when I see an able hunter jump on a fenced hunt so he can clock up his trophy collection, to me that's wrong. Remote places don't always mean higher dollars.

Again I will say there is a place for both. After all this website is called "AFRICAN HUNTING" not "AFRICAN SHOOTING".

 

[BRICKBURN]

................ I want a hunt like Roosevelt, or Selous, or Hemingway, or Percival, or Selby, or Bell etc. had. If that is impossible today I just need to know I guess.

You will not get to hunt ala Teddy anywhere. i.e.. 1.8 Million people in Kenya then vs 50 Million of late.
The landscape has changed.

There are remote wild areas to hunt that are not fenced.
Talk to Outfitters like Nathan, Simon, Christophe, Martin, etc

Good luck in your search.

 

[billc]

I just don't want to hunt animals raised or bred by people for that purpose. I'd rather be told that all the wild game is in parks where you can't hunt it. I don't care if there is a fence, I'll hunt a farmers fields if that's where the animals choose to live. I don't want to have an animal sold to me. I don't care about record books and I don't care how big the horns are. I want a hunt like Roosevelt, or Selous, or Hemingway, or Percival, or Selby, or Bell etc. had. If that is impossible today I just need to know I guess.

I was not taking a shot at you was telling you by how I read what you want SA is not the place for it other then a few spots. I am trying to be as honest as I can. Even the largest ranches is SA the game is there for hunting. It is not raised in pens or such but it is raised on that ranch to be hunted.

I would love to sell you a hunt with paw print but I look at making dreams come true not to just help selling a hunt because I am a rep. for someone. I am a hunter first a rep second and believe in being honest and laying the truth out to any hunter be it one wanting to hunt with us or anyone else.

I have not hunted all of africa but have looked in to all countries and animals. I would say Tanz,Moz,Zam,Zim,Nam and SA in that order would be your best for that wild hard type of hunt. It will cost to do it but that would give you the style of hunt I think you want.

That is my honest no bs answer not the sugar coated one to try and sell you a hunt.This a hunter trying to help another hunter make his dream hunt come true.

 

[Khaleesi]

I personally hunt utilizing all different kinds of methods and weapons, and they all have different levels of challenge and reward. Yet, I still love all of it. Again, to each his own... Every experience doesn't have to be the ultimate hunting challenge to enjoy it.

Challenge, fair chase, and sense of accomplishment are relative terms and very subjective when applied to hunters & hunting. If a particular hunting method is not for you, fine, but I think it's quite unfair to apply such broad, generalized conclusions to a method of hunting that you don't personally care to practice.

I have been following this discussion, and I think there have been some very interesting and insightful points made by all. Two separate lines stood out to me that I think hit the nail on the head in terms of prospective. Spot on Fire.

 

[siml]

@Khaleesi , if you tell us if John Snow is still alive in the next series, I will agree with everything you say....

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

..... Even the largest ranches is SA the game is there for hunting. It is not raised in pens or such but it is raised on that ranch to be hunted.

Bill, I can see what you are trying to say, but you need to choose your words better. Saying that animal are "raised" for hunting creates the wrong impression. All animals in our areas are born without our interference, eat by themselves, live and die by themselves, whether by hunter, predator or natural causes. The only animals that we raise are the few sheep that we have.
"Raising" implies that we have a hand in their upbringing, no matter how big the area, which is certainly not the case.

 

[rookhawk]

Billc earns the award for most honest rep of the year for his comments above.

What I would say in general is that while everyone on this forum is exceedingly friendly, I found a lot of bias and snake oil when I posted the same requests as Erich a couple years ago looking for my first safari.

I said I wanted fair chase with no fences and the fly camp experience. The majority of replies were poor arguments like:

1.) The deflection - You don't really want that, you want what I sell for less.
2.) The bait and switch - My areas are so big you'll never see a fence.
3.) The nullify - That sort of hunt doesn't exist anymore
4.) The Expert Opinion using FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - You'll get screwed.

In the end I found exactly what Erich requested in Zim. I did a fly camp. I paid ~$10,000 for daily rates. I paid around ~$2000 in tips. I paid ~$500 in ground transport. I pre-purchased ~$10,000 in non-refundable game bag fees. And then I hunted hard for 10 days on a private area of about 130,000+ Square Kilometers. Just me and the team, no fences, no other hunters. No cell phones.

And my bag was:

1 lovely giraffe of average size (the trophy of a lifetime was seen on day one but my guns were lost in transit)

5 male impalas (four just under book, one made book)

4 female impalas we ate

1 warthog that we ate. Rare in the area and had no tushes of note.

2 baboons.

1 Hyena, an excellent specimen but not trophy sized. Very mature nonetheless.

1 Zebra stallion. A nice specimen.

1 steenbok. Probably will make book.

1 pathetic cull Kudu with straight horns on the last hour of the last day of the hunt. (meat for the PH) Couldn't get a shot on the beauty 55"+ one I saw at 30' away because he was standing on the wrong nation's grass for several hours. That's hunting!

Lots of bird hunting of Francolin, Doves, Guineas and Sand Grouse.

As you can see from the above, my bag plus daily rates all-in with a SA hunting group behind a fence would easily have been half the price. (and the animals would have scored better)

So in conclusion, what Erich wanted and what I wanted does exist. It is different. It is purist hunting and it is wrought with risk and beauty and tradition and expense. Not for everyone but I certainly wish it was of interest to more people.

 

[firehuntfish]

So in conclusion, what Erich wanted and what I wanted does exist. It is different. It is purist hunting and it is wrought with risk and beauty and tradition and expense. Not for everyone but I certainly wish it was of interest to more people.

I believe the interest is certainly there for all... It's the expense that creates the pause. Yet, I think it's a wonderful thing that there are so many options available to suit almost every budget.

If the only options for safaris in Africa were these truly "wild, traditional" hunts, the vast majority of safari guests would never get to experience Africa at any level. Myself included..... And, that would be sad.

 

[BRICKBURN]

........................

What I would say in general is that while everyone on this forum is exceedingly friendly, I found a lot of bias and snake oil when I posted the same requests as Erich a couple years ago looking for my first safari. ..............

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-this-a-fair-price-for-a-hunt.21651/

Responses your received to your question:

In fairness to the members here your question was not transparent. So the bias and snake oil was determined from the outset by your question and the lack of information provided.

My replies in the thread.
1: In a Dangerous game area does not matter in the least to price. That is an attraction.
It's a plains game hunt with some bird hunting on the side.

If that is actually the top end of the cost that you pay IF you are successful in taking trophies and that price includes ALL the trophy fees for the list you presented and you are hunting 1x1. Go for it.

If that is the price for a 10 day drive ($2000 per day) and maybe you'll see something..... you decide if it is worth it.

ps. Secret deals always make me nervous.

2:
So, in effect, this is actually a package hunt with no refunds for trophies not taken!

The romance sounds interesting but it is also fraught with risk.
The fees sound like a PIA tax for set up. OK
Most Outfitters don't charge DG rates when they are not hunting DG.

That is a lot of trust you are placing on an Outfitter and a new area.

If you have the money and want to go for the experience do it.

I want to read your hunting report when you are done for sure.

3: Good luck.




In the end you bought a Zim parks auction package with an Outfitter you trusted and had references for already.
In summary: you paid $1000 per day in day fees for 10 days hunting. Up from the $700 you suggested in your query post. (A 43% increase in day rates.)
$10,000 in trophy fees for a Giraffe, Hyena, Zebra, Steenbok, Impala, bird hunting and some bait animals.
You got most of the animals in your package and some bait animals on top of it.
Was it a good deal?
You wanted a remote hunt staying in a tent and paid a Premium for it.
You are satisfied and obviously thought it was a fair price for the experience.

FYI:
CAMP AUCTIONS
http://www.desiredauctioneers.co.zw
For and on behalf of the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority, Desired Liaison Auctioneers will be holding an auction of packaged hunts (hunting bags) in Sapi, Tuli, Chirisa and Chete Safari Areas and Fishing camps in Sapi.

 

[spike.t]

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-this-a-fair-price-for-a-hunt.21651/

Responses your received to your question:

In fairness to the members here your question was not transparent. So the bias and snake oil was determined from the outset by your question and the lack of information provided..

you beat me to it wayne...and rookhawk i presume you mean 130,000+ acres not
"on a private area of about 130,000+ Square Kilometers" ?

 

[enysse]

Rookhawk, wow is all I can say.

I would honestly not pay for that kind of experience. I don't mind fences, I grew up on big open farm as a kid and young adult and understand the need for them. I honestly think with the right research hunting South Africa or Namibia is some of the best hunting for the dollar in the whole world. On my Namibia hunt many years ago, I saw animals of all age classes. Yes, I saw the fence on that hunt but felt in never played a factor in determining the animals I got in that hunt. The hunt was reasonably prices and looking back a truly great value hunt....that I would never trade for anything.

 

[JGRaider]

So, what happened?
Did you follow up on your hunt report?
The report of yours at Koedoeberg looks like a glowing report to me.

I followed up with the outfitter via email. I chose not to bash anyone involved on a public forum. Also, yes, we had loads of fun, being our first ever trip to Africa, but the longer we were there, the more we learned we were mislead. After all, what are you gonna do.....go home and not hunt? I don't think so. Since you brought the outfitter's name into the conversation, you were also one of the ones who recommended them to me before we went. I never called you on that either. One thing I did learn while there is that many SA outfitters operate the same way.

Oh, never mind the part about me not even getting MY zebra rug back. I got a rug, just not my zebra........