Fair chase vs game ranches

Nyati

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Erich, welcome to AH, and wish you lots of luck to find the hunt you want.

Now, hunting like Selous, Roosevelt, Percival, Selby or Bell, I don´t think that is possible anymore, Africa has changed a lot in the last 100 years.
 

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Marius it is very hard to explain how SA works to must people because it is all how you take certain words. That is why I said not pen raised. If the game had no value guys would not keep the amount of animals they do living on there areas. I am not saying it is wrong and after all we all know I hunt SA and have no problem myself even hunting smaller areas there. The word raised how I am meaning it means just that the animals are raised on that place. That does not mean the people owning them when THERE OWN THERE LAND do anything for the animals other then to let them live for the reason of hunting.

My comments were not trying to explain it to anyone other then the guy asking the question and you know your self if you read what he is asking for SA would not be the perfect place. Can be done there but very hard to do what he is asking for in SA for the animal he asked about also.

Some of why I say SA would not be the best place is because I think of how remote an area he is looking for. Not many places in SA that within a few hours your not able to get to a some what of a modern town. I feel he is looking for a fly in type area that if you drove for 6 hours you could not get to a modern town.

I must realize that I cant help everyone book a hunt with the guys I work with but I still want to help guys if I can. If being honest by telling them how I see it as and american hunter helps them I am doing my job as a hunter to.
 

Erich

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Erich, welcome to AH, and wish you lots of luck to find the hunt you want.

Now, hunting like Selous, Roosevelt, Percival, Selby or Bell, I don´t think that is possible anymore, Africa has changed a lot in the last 100 years.
That's kind of what I have figured out. So in the next couple years while I save up I will continue to research the animals I want to hunt along with the countries and areas available to hunting. I'm sure I can find something I'll enjoy, it's just a matter of being 110% sure before I book and spend the money because I assure you it will take me several years to save for it.
 

rookhawk

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you beat me to it wayne...and rookhawk i presume you mean 130,000+ acres not
"on a private area of about 130,000+ Square Kilometers" ?

I was incorrect. 416 sq. km, Roughly 15% the size of the State of Rhode Island was the size of the hunting area I acquired for my last trip.
 

Nyati

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That's kind of what I have figured out. So in the next couple years while I save up I will continue to research the animals I want to hunt along with the countries and areas available to hunting. I'm sure I can find something I'll enjoy, it's just a matter of being 110% sure before I book and spend the money because I assure you it will take me several years to save for it.

I think you are on the right track, and there are many experienced members here who will help you with all the information you need.
 

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I guess we're all in one big tent and have to protect ourselves from the antis by saying all hunting is good hunting.

In ironic related news for today:

An advert on this board for a cheap buffalo because he is only 34-35". So if you're willing to fly around the world, you can hunt and kill him by name (does he have a name?) for a discounted fee. Are we to just say that this is the new way of hunting or there will be no hunting at all?

And then this article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-at-record-11-1-million-in-auction-beeld-says

A buffalo sells for more than $11m so he can be studded out to make big Cape buffalo for people to come hunt.

This is the logical conclusion of fences: bioengineering, line breeding, and "discounts" for inferior product (animals).
 

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..........

An advert on this board for a cheap buffalo because he is only 34-35". So if you're willing to fly around the world, you can hunt and kill him by name (does he have a name?) for a discounted fee. Are we to just say that this is the new way of hunting or there will be no hunting at all?
................

Might provide an opportunity for someone.....
Doug1_1.jpg
 

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I guess we're all in one big tent and have to protect ourselves from the antis by saying all hunting is good hunting.

In ironic related news for today:

An advert on this board for a cheap buffalo because he is only 34-35". So if you're willing to fly around the world, you can hunt and kill him by name (does he have a name?) for a discounted fee. Are we to just say that this is the new way of hunting or there will be no hunting at all?

And then this article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-at-record-11-1-million-in-auction-beeld-says

A buffalo sells for more than $11m so he can be studded out to make big Cape buffalo for people to come hunt.

This is the logical conclusion of fences: bioengineering, line breeding, and "discounts" for inferior product (animals).
That's the kind of hunting I don't want.
 

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Good luck in your search, there are many people here with lots of knowledge and experience as you can see. Whatever you decide, best of luck and enjoy!!
 

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As of right now the species I'm most interested in are Crocodile, Hippo, Cape Buffalo, Warthog, Giraffe, Gemsbok, Sable, Kudu, and Lord Derby Eland.

@Erich looking at your choice of animals and what you're wanting to do we need to firstly look at where ALL these animals or in this case MOST of the animals occur.

I would say that you're looking at Mozambique minus your Gemsbuck ( South Africa , Namibia , Botswana an limited in Zim) and LD Eland as that's a stand alone $30k hunt. Regular Eland are 2500-3000 . I would check on imports though as USFW an CITES won't let hippo in from Moz and I'm not sure how many giraffe are out there.

Another option would be Zambia especially along the Luanda River.but again no Gemsbuck .

Matetsi Zimbabwe will also be a venue.no Gemsbuck though.

Tanzania is an option but they only have fringed eared oryx .

Namibia in the caprivi? That should have all your animals. Except the LD Eland but regular Eland abound.

Then one or two private game reserves in SA are big enough. Minus the croc and hippo. Charter flight into camp etc rhino elephant etc walking around.

All these areas are represented by outfitters on this forum and I'm sure that with time an due diligence you'll le find what you're looking for.

Just keep in mind that the old romantic Africa is of a bygone era.
Warm regards and happy hunting
Dave
 

rookhawk

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Just keep in mind that the old romantic Africa is of a bygone era.
Warm regards and happy hunting
Dave

People say this a lot but isn't it more accurate to say that old romantic Africa is still there but not every outfit supplies it?

-siestas after pack lunch in the bush

-mapani wood sorties

-hostile elephants on the same path

-fly camp experiences

-gin and tonic at the end of the day

-no power lines for 100s of KM

-making biltong every day

-getting passed the locals because you hired a PH that speaks fluent Shona and Matabele

-shooting sand grouse at sunset

-eating entirely and solely your game for a fortnight

-packing in furniture

-hollowing out ant hills to make into bread ovens

-bending over to pick up a .577/.450 case that was last used by Selous or a Voortrekker 135 years earlier


All of that stuff is still there and it's not that expensive. It just costs more than the cheapest hunts. Not trying to beat a dead horse but I keep hearing old romance of old Africa is gone and that's just simply not true. Anyone can hunt in the footprints of Selous the romantic way for plains game for about the same price as a very cheap DG hunt.
 

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rookhawk, you make some great points (y)(y)(y). I appreciate the variety that Africa offers.

Erich, I guess the power lines didn't bother me, I learned to get past the cattle fences, because frankly there a lot of fences out West. Even to get to the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana you have to get past a ton of fences. Once in the interior there are none but it always amazed me how I would be walking along and run into another fence when on paper it looked like there were none.
 

buck wild

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Lots of stuff here already, not much for me to add except :)

Most folks I run across- high fence = easy animals. As what has already been said, that doesn't have to be the case. In my area, I could take you to a ranch 800,000 acres low fence and you could kill a WT deer with hammer. Not much of a hunt, but it is low fence. I could also take you to a 2k acre high fence place that although there is a heard of 50 axis, I'd put $100 down you couldn't kill a buck in 2 days of stalking.

IMO- I just want a good hunt without it being a petting zoo :sneaky:
Over and out !
 

yidava25

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Wow, lots of good information here.
I've read through this entire thread because I have many of the same concerns as the poster. Thanks to everyone who added their input, although I must say the more I read, the more difficult the decision becomes.
 

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Great topic guys. Let me add one other suggestion. A competent hunting consultant can help you enormously. In 2006, I was exactly where you are today, trying to determine what I would do for a first hunt in Africa. I was thumbing through a bewildering set of brochures and websites, and getting a lot of conflicting advice from folks who had been there (usually to one or two places which typically, of course, were the "best" places on the continent). On a recommendation, I called Jack Atcheson Jr http://www.atcheson.com/ - there are other reputable consultants, but I have now depended upon Jack for a decade. His job, paid for by the operators whom he represents, is to match your dreams and budget to the outfitter who can fulfill them. I had all the same questions you did, and he arranged my first experience in Namibia with Nick and Isabel Nolte. Nick has access to huge cattle ranches with amazing concentrations of free-range native Namibian game. The only fences are cattle fences which only stop cattle - just like a cattle ranch out west in the middle of whitetail or mule deer country. We also went onto a 70k acre game ranch (high fence) to shoot a couple of impala (I naively had put them on our wish list because we were going to Africa - the black face impala is native to Namibia and is not importable to the US - we had to go to an enclosed area to shoot common impala.) However, I am confident that the two impala had no clue they were in an enclosure. Jack has sent me on to the Caprivi Strip and Mozambique after being bit by the buffalo bug - they are like a tsetse fly only the resulting illness is more like an addiction than a normal sickness. I am going back to Moz next year. It isn't Ruark and Percival - but it's pretty darn close for the 21st century. You will not regret giving Jack a call.
 
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rookhawk

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I find that for a variety of reasons, the vast majority of hunters opt for prima facie game ranches or game ranches as "I" define them. Main barriers to natural, wild, unfenced hunting in Africa VS game ranches that I can see:

Wild non-fenced hunts are more expensive to obtain

Wild hunts are poorly advertised as there is less incentive for a PH to "hype" his secret spots or "hype" a fleeting concession or auction site for which he has temporary access.

Wild hunts bruise many egos because the odds are you will harvest inferior quality trophies in a wild state than you will in a managed environment.

Wild hunts often have no refund policies for cancellations so its high stakes poker many people do not stomach well.

Wild hunts require longer hunts on average to find your animals so trip duration and costs run higher.

Wild hunts lack the biodiversity that can be accomplished on a fenced ranch so the volume of bag choices will be less.

Wild hunts have quotas so most things you see are not available to be hunted.

Wild hunts often have pre-paid bags so if you don't see it or don't kill it (or you knick it), you still bought it.

Wild hunts require setting up camps and that requires manpower. Typically 8-10 people to tend you you as a hunter requiring a lot more cost and time in the preparation.

Wild hunts usually have poorer accommodations than ranch hunts that may have permanent structures for your enjoyment.

With wild hunts, you often can't add to your quota when you get inspired by seeing an amazing trophy XYZ in the bush....so sorry, you should have pre-purchased the tag a year earlier for your trip!

With wild hunts, the whole trip can go "tits up" if the conditions are too wet or too dry or the animals fail to migrate on YOUR timetable. Will you pay $6000 for a buffalo tag only to discover they've not yet come through for the year. Goodbye $6000.

With wild hunts, you do not get to hunt exotic hybrids and line bred animals. There are no copper wildebeests. There are not 5 varieties of springbok. There are not white lions. Your choices in a wild hunt are solely what nature provided you, not what man engineered for you.

Wild hunts are usually farther away from cell phone service or hospitals so there is more risk involved than a hunt say 90 minutes from Jo'Burg.

Wild hunts usually offer excellent wild cuisine. If you don't like eating your game you will starve and die before store bought food comes your way on a 10-14 day hunt. Almost all protein on wild hunts is provided by what you kill.

Wild hunts on the average provide less shooting opportunities.

Wild hunts often prevent as unethical by law or regulation, under the observation of government game scouts, hunting practices that are status quo in ranch hunts. Illegal things you cannot do in some wild areas for example: Hunt within 400 meters of a water source. Shoot within 100m of a vehicle. Shoot from a vehicle. Shoot within 100m of a road. Shoot at night. Shoot with the aid of dogs. Use electronic calls. Etc.

Wild hunts often make you the subject of scorn or ridicule amongst fellow hunters. You'll be labeled a sucker for paying more for your hunts by some. You'll be labeled incompetent for your diminished bag by some. You'll be unlikely to get your name in the SCI book, something easily accomplished on a game ranch. Your ego will be bruised by the attitudes and comments of many hunters that do Africa hunts.

Wild hunts are rougher and therefore you'll be less likely to bring the wives and kids unless they like camping ( it is luxury glamping).

Wild hunts involve much higher deposit rates and many financial "leaps of faith" that are not nearly as risky on ranch hunts. If a ranch hunt steals your money...you know where the ranch is to go find the guy or serve him papers! You better know your PH well and put your life AND finances in his hands if you're doing wild hunts.



In closing, I'm reminded of the old saying "its not a defect, its a feature!". For me, I find every statement above to be reason to justify my interest in doing only wild hunts. I'm in the super minority on these points, however.
 
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Art Lambart II

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This is a great thread, lots of strong opinions on both sides and a lot of good information. With the exception of shooting animals raised by and in daily contact with people I believe a fair chase hunt can be had anywhere, high fence, low fence or no fence, all it takes is changing the way you hunt. In all of Gods creation only man kills at a distance, this ability has made us the dominate predator on earth, not our strength, our speed, our stamina or our vision, our ability to kill at a distance has put us on the top of the food chain. The farther away we get from our prey the less effective their defenses become making them easier for us to kill. This is why bow hunting is more difficult that rifle hunting, the closer you get to your prey the better the hunter has to be to defeat their sense of smell, sight and hearing. If you really want a fair chase hunt limit your shooting distance to 50 yards or less, if you do that I guaranty it will be a fair chase hunt.
 

rookhawk

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Art Lambart, I agree with you. I think "fair chase" is often mixed improperly with low fence and high fence and game ranch when they are not antonyms or synonyms.

Someone that says they want "fair chase" + "low fence" or "no fence" + "wild hunting" is asking for a particular group of things that paints a particular picture. I don't think anyone is saying that every piece must go hand in hand with the other otherwise the hunt is "unfair". I do think that if you deviate from that menu it leads to an experience that is "unnatural", not in the method of harvest but in the flora, fauna and tactics used to hunt. I think that their is little resistance to doing "unnatural" hunting within SCI/safari hunters and that does not bode well for the long term focus of hunting as a sport.

For me, I'm a purist. I wrestle with the idea of doing an oryx or ibex hunt in New Mexico for an example. Is it no fence? Yes. Is it fair chase? You bet it is. Is it "wild hunting"? Sorta...for me I don't like to see non-indigenous species on the bag list as I'd rather be in SA or Uzbekistan if I'm hunting those creatures. That's why I don't do stag hunts in New Zealand or South America, it's why I don't do fallow deer hunts in northern Europe, it's why I don't do Aoudad hunts in Hawaii. Is there something unfair about these hunts as a whole? No. I just don't like to subsidize hunting practices that I think are financially harmful to the wild resources and I see every penny spent on an exotic hunt as funds robbed from a program that would enhance or support the natural indigenous species.

One man's preferences does not automatically make another man's hunts "unfair chase" or "unethical". I do wish we all spent a bit less money pursuing that which is manufactured for hunting purposes and repurpose those dollars to that which is natural for the sake of our sport's future, however. If something doesn't change in our preferences towards "purity" in 100 years there may be no natural hunting left to be had with exotics and invasives having taken hold of all ecosystems and fences and farms having taken the place of wild natural selection and survival of the fittest.
 

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