Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[spike.t]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

Hey @sgt_zim all mine are straight...and totally FLAT shooting at 35.75 yards.....because if they are good at that distance....I am happy....as at 100 still going to be happy....and please all you people that will pull up weird and mysterious charts and graphs telling me I am talking shit ....dont...as your confusing me with someone that gives a fk....

 

[Inline6]

Hey @sgt_zim all mine are straight...and totally FLAT shooting at 35.75 yards.....because if they are good at that distance....I am happy....as at 100 still going to be happy....and please all you people that will pull up weird and mysterious charts and graphs telling me I am talking shit ....dont...as your confusing me with someone that gives a fk....

Ironically enough all of my black rifles with RDSs are all sighted in at that same distance.

 

[spike.t]

Ironically enough all of my black rifles with RDSs are all sighted in at that same distance.

Nothing ironic.....just realistic....and am impressed at your measurement distances......get fkd off with everyone putting one inch holes at fk knows how many yards ...thought I was really shit shot...then I realised they were on fkn bench rests with bags of lead to reduce recoil etc....you have no idea how relieved I was when I read that.. .then I figured my minute of dead, off the bonnet or whatever rest I was using to check my sights was not too bad ....

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have not read it, so I'm not sure what's in it. I don't think a 7mmRM will push a 180 to 2950. It also has a belt which I am not the biggest fan of. The other thing most rifles chambered in 7mmRM do not have a fast twist to stabilize the heavy class of bullets.

@Inline6
Mate forgot them 7mms.
Git yersef on of them that 6.5 Barnes QT. Throws a 200gn 6.5 at around 2,800fps. Extra heavy bullet for caliber and the QT stands for quick twist. You would have the best 6.5 on the block that will make that new fanged 6.5 manbun look silly.
Bob

 

[Inline6]

@Inline6
Mate forgot them 7mms.
Git yersef on of them that 6.5 Barnes QT. Throws a 200gn 6.5 at around 2,800fps. Extra heavy bullet for caliber and the QT stands for quick twist. You would have the best 6.5 on the block that will make that new fanged 6.5 manbun look silly.
Bob

I have been eyeing a 6.5PRC with Berger 156s. I know a few people getting close to 3kfps out of them with 24" pipes. It is great balanced round.

I'm looking at the 7mm to fill a gap, really it is more of a want than a need. When going on western hunts it would be nice to have a few more ft-lbs of energy. Even here in South Texas we have opportunities at Nalgai, they are pretty healthy.

 

[ChrisG]

I have been eyeing a 6.5PRC with Berger 156s. I know a few people getting close to 3kfps out of them with 24" pipes. It is great balanced round.

I'm looking at the 7mm to fill a gap, really it is more of a want than a need. When going on western hunts it would be nice to have a few more ft-lbs of energy. Even here in South Texas we have opportunities at Nalgai, they are pretty healthy.

I would recommend a .280 Remington. Not the Ackley version, just the normal tapered case version. I love it! Mine is in a Ruger no.1 which makes it even cooler in my opinion. I am eventually going to have tree bone carving make me a set of nice stocks for it and get a real rib and nice sling swivel and front sight with a hood. Really Farquharson the heck out of it. But yeah, The .280 is a really underrated 7mm. I don't know about all that long range stuff. When I am hunting, I want to be so close to the animal that I can see their sweat droplets. Otherwise, it really isn't hunting for me. All that said, I do know there are circumstances that a 300-350 yards shot is required, so I would recommend the .280. It is lighter recoiling (slightly) than a .30-06 and there are like 24,000 different bullets available for a 7mm. Either that or a 7x57, which is the classic answer, but still a good one.

The .280 made sense to me for a round that could reach out past 300 in a pinch and still have enough speed to expand a tough bullet. A lot of people who talk about long range don't take into account the minimum velocity (not energy) required to RELIABLY open up a bullet. For most standard guns, that is around 300-400 yards, with some magnums stretching that to 500 yards. Much past that, a hunter is HOPING that his bullet will expand. My threshold is when the bullet drops below 2,000 fps. I know there are some manufacturers that will state that their bullets reliably expand down to 1,600 or whatever. I don't trust that and any amount of ballistics gel testing isn't going to make me.

 

[Inline6]

I would recommend a .280 Remington. Not the Ackley version, just the normal tapered case version. I love it! Mine is in a Ruger no.1 which makes it even cooler in my opinion. I am eventually going to have tree bone carving make me a set of nice stocks for it and get a real rib and nice sling swivel and front sight with a hood. Really Farquharson the heck out of it. But yeah, The .280 is a really underrated 7mm. I don't know about all that long range stuff. When I am hunting, I want to be so close to the animal that I can see their sweat droplets. Otherwise, it really isn't hunting for me. All that said, I do know there are circumstances that a 300-350 yards shot is required, so I would recommend the .280. It is lighter recoiling (slightly) than a .30-06 and there are like 24,000 different bullets available for a 7mm. Either that or a 7x57, which is the classic answer, but still a good one.

The .280 made sense to me for a round that could reach out past 300 in a pinch and still have enough speed to expand a tough bullet. A lot of people who talk about long range don't take into account the minimum velocity (not energy) required to RELIABLY open up a bullet. For most standard guns, that is around 300-400 yards, with some magnums stretching that to 500 yards. Much past that, a hunter is HOPING that his bullet will expand. My threshold is when the bullet drops below 2,000 fps. I know there are some manufacturers that will state that their bullets reliably expand down to 1,600 or whatever. I don't trust that and any amount of ballistics gel testing isn't going to make me.

Yes have a 280AI reamer, it is a great round. I just want the 7PRC.

 

[Woodcarver]

Bob,

I agree 100% with checking at distance to see if reticle Or dialing is on.

The other thing you can and need to do if dialing is set up a target (using a meter stick - assuming Mil based) at 100M and dial up 1 Mil at at time per shot. POI should go up 4" (for me) = 10 cm for you for each Mil dialed. Can work for BDC too, but much more complicated.

I prefer simple Mil Dot (or MOA based) hash marks over BDC, but that's partly because I like to Zero well beyond 100 for almost everything. Exception being the 9.3 with heavy bullets. (Most BDC scopes need a 100 Yd or Meter zero.) I have two Vortex Razor Light Hunter scopes with BDC, btw.

My NF scopes all dial to within ~1% of where they are supposed to. The Trijicon Accupoint is very close through 2 Mils - but then off by roughly 4% (dialing). But it's only a 1x6 and is now mounted on the 9.3x62. No dialing is anticipated with the 1x6 Accupoint, but the reticle got me to 425 easy enough when testing (on a 308). On the 9.3x62 zeroed at 40/120, a one Mil (dot) hold takes me perfectly to our 225 Yard steel with my 300 grain A-F load. But I have to be on 6x.

@Inline6 is absolute correct about the practice requirement. Reticle holds (including BDC) are really easy to screw up - especially with a 2nd focal optic. Best to avoid unless you have enough time and actually need it, IMO.

I tested the hold-over method this morning, worked great. 25-06 with a 4-12 Nikon w/ BDC sighted 1.5" high at 100yd. Put the crosshair flat on a coyotes back at 261 yards (stepped off after the fact) and dropped him in his tracks. Another mangy coyote relieved from suffering the terminal effects of mange. Thankfully, that is far enough from the house I didn't have to drag his carcass, lol.

 

[DG870]

I would recommend a .280 Remington. Not the Ackley version, just the normal tapered case version. I love it! Mine is in a Ruger no.1 which makes it even cooler in my opinion. I am eventually going to have tree bone carving make me a set of nice stocks for it and get a real rib and nice sling swivel and front sight with a hood. Really Farquharson the heck out of it. But yeah, The .280 is a really underrated 7mm. I don't know about all that long range stuff. When I am hunting, I want to be so close to the animal that I can see their sweat droplets. Otherwise, it really isn't hunting for me. All that said, I do know there are circumstances that a 300-350 yards shot is required, so I would recommend the .280. It is lighter recoiling (slightly) than a .30-06 and there are like 24,000 different bullets available for a 7mm. Either that or a 7x57, which is the classic answer, but still a good one.

The .280 made sense to me for a round that could reach out past 300 in a pinch and still have enough speed to expand a tough bullet. A lot of people who talk about long range don't take into account the minimum velocity (not energy) required to RELIABLY open up a bullet. For most standard guns, that is around 300-400 yards, with some magnums stretching that to 500 yards. Much past that, a hunter is HOPING that his bullet will expand. My threshold is when the bullet drops below 2,000 fps. I know there are some manufacturers that will state that their bullets reliably expand down to 1,600 or whatever. I don't trust that and any amount of ballistics gel testing isn't going to make me.

I agree that the standard 280 Remington is a well balanced and versatile caliber for most hunting situations. I’m a life long 270 Winchester fan but I bought a 280 as a backup rifle and have come to appreciate the 280 for the wide range of bullets that can be hand loaded for it for different hunting situations. I shot this hog using 175 grain round nose in my 280.

I think we are fortunate to have so many great calibers to debate about which is the best. It’s great marketing to introduce new calibers and it sells guns to a new “and old” generation of shooters so it keeps the industry moving forward so it’s a good thing. The thing to take note of is they don’t humanely kill game any more dead than the 119 year old 30-06.
Bob, you should jump on the PRC band wagon. I can see a 35PRC in your future!

 

[B0MBOY]

@BOMBOY
I personally don't like range finders but they do have a use.
I like simple .
Know your rifle hold on game, go bang and hopefully pick up game. My idea is hold on hair not air. If I have to hold on air move closer. I don't like thes dial up scopes, if you forget to reset scope after the shot your next shot can become a problem.
I tried this new stuff ONCE. By the time I ranged the animal, dialed in the scope and adjusted the parallax I did not get to fire the shot. No the animal didn't run off, the bloody thing died of old age by the time I was ready to shoot.
I like simple aim fire collect game. Simple.
Bob

I dabble in long range shooting, and like to be able to stretch the definition of “reasonable distance” when the situation calls for it.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Bob, you should jump on the PRC band wagon. I can see a 35PRC in your future!

He's got a .35 WAI...good luck with any further progress.

I dabble in long range shooting, and like to be able to stretch the definition of “reasonable distance” when the situation calls for it.

Uh ohh! You said something other than stalking right up to the game animal and braining him with a rock. Someone's gonna have to disagree or apply their ethics to your hunt.
I'm in agreement with your logic. I don't have every opportunity to hunt and so if a reasonable extension can be made I will also take it.

 

[ChrisG]

He's got a .35 WAI...good luck with any further progress.

Uh ohh! You said something other than stalking right up to the game animal and braining him with a rock. Someone's gonna have to disagree or apply their ethics to your hunt.
I'm in agreement with your logic. I don't have every opportunity to hunt and so if a reasonable extension can be made I will also take it.

I would just add that the assumption here is that bagging an animal is 100% of why people hunt. None of us here are subsistence hunters, so there must be more to it than killin' stuff and eatin' it.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I would just add that the assumption here is that bagging an animal is 100% of why people hunt. None of us here are subsistence hunters, so there must be more to it than killin' stuff and eatin' it.

Not sure what you're going for. I hunt because sleeping on the stand is the best sleep ever.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Not sure what you're going for. I hunt because sleeping on the stand is the best sleep ever.

That could be why I often hunt sitting on the ground.

 

[Forrest Halley]

That could be why I often hunt sitting on the ground.

If you are going to do this, I recommend being able to make shots very quickly as the biggest deer will often times walk right up to trying to figure out what that awful sound is.

 

[B0MBOY]

That could be why I often hunt sitting on the ground.

I hunt from a soccer chair with a fleece blanket on my lap.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I hunt from a soccer chair with a fleece blanket on my lap.

Wait what? Like a folding chair and a fleece blanket? How do you keep the leaves from fouling it all up?

 

[Lance Hopper]

No! Flatter is always better! I don't understand your premise. I will always take lighter, faster, deeper, on every sircumstance. But, I guess to each his own!

 

[B0MBOY]

Wait what? Like a folding chair and a fleece blanket? How do you keep the leaves from fouling it all up?

set up your chair, kick all the leaves out from under your feet so you are on dirt and can fidget in silence, then throw blanket over lap and set your gun/crossbow on it then tuck your hands in. You’ll see plenty of deer at the fraction of the cost of a blind.

 

[rdog]

I've since switched over to FFP scopes, from 6-18, 4-20, and 5-30 with moa reticles. I set targets at 100, 200, 300, 385 and 500 (all meters). Five shot groups with best load, sight in with main crosshair at 100, then use the main crosshair at the remaining targets, five shot groups. I put a three inch fluorescent target over the group at each range and looking through the scope, see where it matches up with the graduated vertical moa lines. Unlike SFP scopes where this only works at one magnification setting, the FFP work at any. I also use the drop number in my dope chart and compare with the ballistic app for longer ranges..

That is a great method, i will try to do it with my 270 WSM & 140 grain NBTs, but it will take some time at the range That takes care of the elevation what method to you use for wind?