Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[sgt_zim]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Oh boy, I’m gonna get some popcorn!!!!!

I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!

pass the popcorn!

 

[375er]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

Why I will stick with the 30-06.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I agree 100 percent @sgt_zim

 

[crs]

"I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!"

And what percentage of big game is actually shot beyond 300 yards?
Shot and killed, not just shot at.

 

[sgt_zim]

"I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!"

And what percentage of big game is actually shot beyond 300 yards?
Shot and killed, not just shot at.

Exactly this.

For new shooters in particular, even 300 yards is kind of a long poke. At 200 yards, inconsistent cheek weld and poor breathing/trigger control isn't a big deal. At 300 yards, it translates into shooting that is inconsistent enough to qualify as an unethical shot distance.

 

[sgt_zim]

Why I will stick with the 30-06.

Definitely a fan, and its versatility puts it high on the list, especially for hand loaders. A 220 gr bullet at a modest 2450 fps is some serious thunder.

 

[shootist~]

I agree 100% on the 300 yard and insignificant differences part, but that 8" basis for the MPBR gives me the Willie's. For the 6.5 NPt example (I load it, btw) - if zeroed at 255 - that puts the bullet 2.9 to 3.6" high from 90 all the way to 190 yards.

Kind of a weird zero distance in the US, but we have a 200 meter berm (219 yards) that has worked for everything from 223 to 338 WM. Keeping everything within 2.5" above/below line of site to 250 yards. And everything at the same 9" (and some fraction) low at 325 yards.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Definitely a fan, and its versatility puts it high on the list, especially for hand loaders. A 220 gr bullet at a modest 2450 fps is some serious thunder.

I am growing to like 220 hornandy interlocks in mine. I need to try them on game. (I expect good things)

 

[Wheels]

But you didn't address if a 45/70 was flat enough to kill a buffalo at 301 yards using DGX bullets.

 

[Tra3]

@sgt_zim I agree. And this is also why a PH can call holdovers at all reasonable ranges.

you should put the .22lr in that chart. It sure is fun to mix that little round in with the bigger ones at the range. A 200 yard shot with a .22 is like shooting 400+ with the others.

 

[akrifleman]

I don't understand why something as simple as calculating drop gets any attention, which is all but irrelevant distances under 250 yds, as is almost nearly irrelevant with a range finder at extreme distances. I suspect more poorly place shots are the misunderstanding of wind and lack of practice than any supposed "flatness" of any caliber. Even a 270 can readily be pushed six inches @300 yds with a 10 mph wind.

I like hearing about flat shooting calibers. It immediately tells me who in my hunting party not to trust as a rifleman. I'll take the guy who wants to talk bushcraft or who knows his wind drift around the compass.

 

[BourbonTrail]

Lasers are flat shooting…

(but are they????)

 

[Woodcarver]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

I like this chart. I'll send it to a friend who is convinced his 6.5CM is one of those "flat-shootin' rifles". Off the top of my head, I think I've shot 3 big game animals at 400+ yards, 1 deer and 2 antelope. The longest was 442 according to the range finder. There's only been a handful taken beyond 250yd. The majority have been 150yd or less, including a couple dozen antelope.
There have been a lot of shots not taken because "I think I can get a little closer" resulted in seeing what the south end looks like. Much prefer to still hunt elk in the dark timber rather than sit a meadow and poke one at 3-400 yards. Believe my count is 6 shot in their bed at ranges from 30-80 yards. Longest shot I've taken on an elk was 130 yards. As a bowhunter that has to use a rifle (rotator issues), I prefer to be up close and personal; if I can smell them, that's good.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

@sgt_zim
My 25 is set at 2 inches high at 100, depending on projectile it zeros at 275 to 300 yards and fulfilling your criteria at 325 to 350 yards.
The Whelen is sighted 2.5 to 3 inches high at 100 and has a point blank range between 200 and 300 yards depending on projectiles.
As you said most game is shot at 200 yards or less. If I was honest I have probably taken lees than 10 head of game past 350 yards in over 40 years. I would say at least 80% were between 50 to 150 yards. Yes it is nice having a flat shooter.
Is it needed very often, NO.
I could more than likely sight my rifles in to be spot on at 150 yards for a point blank range of 200 to 250 yards and be happy with that for the rest of my life for hunting.
Just my humble opinion.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

But you didn't address if a 45/70 was flat enough to kill a buffalo at 301 yards using DGX bullets.

@Wheels
Compared to a trench mortar the 45-70 is flat shooting. Depends on what load you use.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[shark_za]

Your list shows all flat shooting calibers.
Add 9.3x62 and .30-30 to the list and see the difference. There are 150m calibers and 250m calibers. The slight differences in the same ballpark are not worth fighting over.
I'm not happy shooting a Gemsbok at 250m with my 6.5 (energy) or my 9.3 (drop) so want a "flat shooting" hard hitting caliber that carries enough energy to hammer these hardy beasts.
7mmRM or .300WM would be best but even a 30-06 or 7x64 would do.

 

[JetA1]

Your list shows all flat shooting calibers.
Add 9.3x62 and .30-30 to the list and see the difference. There are 150m calibers and 250m calibers. The slight differences in the same ballpark are not worth fighting over.
I'm not happy shooting a Gemsbok at 250m with my 6.5 (energy) or my 9.3 (drop) so want a "flat shooting" hard hitting caliber that carries enough energy to hammer these hardy beasts.
7mmRM or .300WM would be best but even a 30-06 or 7x64 would do.

Why not? have you shot your 9.3 at longer distances or looked at a bullet drop chart? I disagree that it drops heaps, go and have a look. with my hand loads and zero on my 9.3 at that distance, I would only need about 4-5 inches hold over. And that's just because I have it zero's dead on at 100m.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Last year in South Africa where I spent four days before continuing to Zimbabwe for an elephant hunt, my PH commented that, "Most guys bring a big rifle and a "fast" rifle, meaning flat shooting. I have a .458 Win Heym double and a .458 Lott M70 for the elephant hunt. I replied in playful banter that is was his job to get me within range of my big guns.

For this year's Hunt, I will take my trusty .458 Win and a .375 H&H. For these, I will plot, print, cut out the table and trajectory chart, and seal them back to back with 2" wide plastic packing tape, the Ballistic Trajectory from ShootersCalculator.com . Making up the range cards, and occasionally referring to them, better inscribes the drop of each cartridge in my mind. I will probably never look at them in Africa but I like to have them around...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Your list shows all flat shooting calibers.
Add 9.3x62 and .30-30 to the list and see the difference. There are 150m calibers and 250m calibers. The slight differences in the same ballpark are not worth fighting over.
I'm not happy shooting a Gemsbok at 250m with my 6.5 (energy) or my 9.3 (drop) so want a "flat shooting" hard hitting caliber that carries enough energy to hammer these hardy beasts.
7mmRM or .300WM would be best but even a 30-06 or 7x64 would do.

@shark_za
I shot my Impala at 275 yards with my Whelen with no hold over. On Gemsbok/oryx I would take a shot at 300 yards if I had to without an issue.
Bob