Barnes TSX or Northfork

Hehehe, i propose you have your ears checked before engaging om on chit chat hearsay mate
Don't get angry with him, he always knows everything better than all the others put together.
A monster buffalo in your avatar.

Welcome in the best forum.

Foxi
 
Seems kind of hard to compare bullets by generalities- from hollow point monometals to mechanically controlled expansion partition types to bonded cores to solid base lead cores to thick jacketed to steel encased cores to whatever.....

Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames and the old H-Mantel are in a group by themselves. By far the toughest, most reliable IMO for DG is the A-Frame as it has slightly better jacket/internal design and has bonded front core. Very reliable and predictable penetration and expansion.

There are three similar bonded, lead core bullets with very heavy tapered jackets with very thick base support features- Rhino Soft Point, TBBC (Trophy Bonded Bear Claw) and the North Fork Soft Point. I have no experience with the Rhino but from reliable reports and looking at their construction, easy to predict their performance would be similar to both the TBBC and the North Fork Soft Point. In my experience, both the performance of the TBBCs and the North Fork Soft Points have been flawless and predictable-- much like the A-Frame.

Another contender might be the current bonded form of the Hornady DGX. It is one of the designs with a steel cased core. Based on my testing in tough media, it is a huge improvement over their original non-bonded DGX. But the stigma of the first model of the DGX is hard to shake. Sooo... someone else can report on actual performance on DG. I would pretty good.

Now the Barnes TSX, TTSX. I know for a fact, the TSX/TTSX design is far superior to the their original X- which, IMO, was a real POS! The only flaws I know of in the TSX/TTSX design are very low velocity unreliability and the occasional petal shedding at higher impact velocity and/or through hard tissue like bone. How a shed petal affects straight line penetration?- I don't know but the "rumor mill" indicates it does. I actually had one shed a petal on a buffalo and it didn't seem to matter. Penetration was more than adequate and within expectations and the penetration line was straight- so I am not convinced one way or another?? If you overdo the velocity, hit something hard, turn the bullet into a mangled shard it will likely go wacky no matter its construction :)

I did do a low velocity penetration test on both a spire point FMJ and a Barnes TSX two or three years ago. Both were 30 cal, 150 gr bullets with about 1300 fps impact velocity. Both acted similarly in tough media. Each began veering in an increasing arc shortly after penetration. Neither bullet deformed. That behavior makes sense as both are of similar profile if they don't deform. Both veered in a spiral path as stabilizing rotation slowed after impact. They did not tumble but yawed around their axis as they penetrated causing, IMO, the spiral penetration path. "Tumbling" may occur at the extreme terminus of penetration as a severely yawing bullet quits rotating. Of course that is only one test, so I won't extrapolate it to other conditions or velocities. My experience with the TSX on game has been excellent and I don't plan on shooting anything at a distance where my bullet has slowed to anywhere near 1300 fps! :) I'll leave the sniping stunts to someone else. The longest shot I've had at an animal with a TSX was 260 yds broadside. The TSX 210 gr 338 cal bullet out of a 338-06 with a MV of 2550 fps and was probably going about 1950-2000 fps at impact. It passed through both shoulders of a large bull oryx which piled up dead after running about 50 yds. I assume the petals expanded some since the exit was about 1 1/2" diameter, but the exact extent of petal expansion?- anyone's guess.

I think bullets can be gyroscopically stabilized if spinning fast enough- no matter the media and can be "dart" stabilized as their rotation slows if their center of gravity is in front of the center of aerodynamic or hydrodynamic pressure... therefore @IvW's reference to the "weight forward" attributes of certain bullets during penetration.

Curious, @Jakalas, what is your background, where are you from?
"If you overdo the velocity, hit something hard, turn the bullet into a mangled shard it will likely go wacky no matter its construction :)"

I think this is exactly correct and have seen this practically. The point being at normal velocities out to a certain range, all the bullets mentioned perform as was intended too. I think it is wrong to bash one or another manufacturer because of to high (or to low) velocities the cartridge was intended for. For avoidance of doubt, performance of Swift AF, NF, Nosler AF, Hornady DG, Woodleigh and T/TSX terminal ballistics are all more than adequate if not great, provided they are used within the velocity range they were intended for.
Low velocity impact study is good for what? To put things in perspective looking at your .30 cal low velocity tests - a 375H&H bullet with a 300gr TSX bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2350ft/s will only drop to 1300 ft/s after 500 yards. Hence, I will always be skeptical comparing the science of ballistics to real world experience.
 
Don't get angry with him, he always knows everything better than all the others put together.
A monster buffalo in your avatar.

Welcome in the best forum.

Foxi
Thank you
 
Northfork Cup Point Solids get my vote for hunting Cape buffalo. Barnes TSX bullets have been known to underperform if there is a fluctuation in velocity.
 
NF is one of a very few expanding bullets that is weight foreward design which avoids any tumbling.
Hi IvW.

It's not the 'weight forward' nature of the bullet that helps avoid tumbling. All things being equal, tumbling would be avoided just as well by having 'weight rearward'. It's all about polar-moment-of-inertia.
An object with its mass biased towards its centre will begin to rotate far more easily than an object with mass that is positioned at its poles. Example: use duct tape to fix a water bottle to a broom stick, first in the middle of the stick, then at the end of the stick. Which one is easier to rotate? The one with the mass at the centre. :) Just as with Formula 1 cars, which have their engines close to the middle of the chassis, initiating rotation is easier with higher mass in the centre and lower mass at the poles of the shape.
An ideal design for a tumbling bullet would be: not too long, a lead core in the centre, solid copper ends and a tip that doesn't deform much. Boy would that thing spin!
If we look at the Swift A-Frame, the reason it tends not to tumble is that it's quite the opposite of what I've just described. It has a sizeable, lighter weight copper cross section in the centre, with heavier lead poles. Upon impact, with deformation of the front section, the heavy poles become unbalanced and the centre of gravity is shifted rearward. This is ideal for slowing the rate of longitudinal rotation. Drag across the front of the broad and evenly deformed surface (thanks to bonding) is sufficient to keep the bullet's orientation stable. These same principles worked for the Apollo Command Modules during re-entry into the earth's atmosphere.
There are other factors at play when considering propensity of a bullet to tumble, but for the bullets considered to be good for big game (Swift A-Frame, Rhino, Barnes TSX), it is their non-centralised weight distribution and even frontal drag surface that helps avoid tumbling, over the distance of the insides of animal.
It's fascinating and sometimes counterintuitive to consider these principles, but physics will have its way, despite what we might think. Example: what is the easiest way to stop sailing yachts from inverting in big seas? Answer: add weight to the top of the mast! Huh? Just as with the broom stick and water bottle example, the rate of rotation is slowed enough for the overall shape to resist external forces long enough, until that force ceases when the wave moves on. The yacht returns to its upright position. Dismasted yachts are far more easily inverted in big seas. Bullets that lose their polarised mass distribution are far more likely to tumble. A Nosler Partition would make a good tumbling candidate.
 
All the pointless bullet bickering aside-glad you got your rhino and buffalo. I would love to see a picture of them and maybe hear the stories
 
I have taken many cape buffalo with Barnes, they are awesome bullets. For some reason I used Hornady DGX this past September and those worked awesome too. There's several quality bullets you could use and not tell one from the other, shoot what works best in your gun!
 
Hi IvW.

It's not the 'weight forward' nature of the bullet that helps avoid tumbling. All things being equal, tumbling would be avoided just as well by having 'weight rearward'. It's all about polar-moment-of-inertia.
An object with its mass biased towards its centre will begin to rotate far more easily than an object with mass that is positioned at its poles. Example: use duct tape to fix a water bottle to a broom stick, first in the middle of the stick, then at the end of the stick. Which one is easier to rotate? The one with the mass at the centre. :) Just as with Formula 1 cars, which have their engines close to the middle of the chassis, initiating rotation is easier with higher mass in the centre and lower mass at the poles of the shape.
An ideal design for a tumbling bullet would be: not too long, a lead core in the centre, solid copper ends and a tip that doesn't deform much. Boy would that thing spin!
If we look at the Swift A-Frame, the reason it tends not to tumble is that it's quite the opposite of what I've just described. It has a sizeable, lighter weight copper cross section in the centre, with heavier lead poles. Upon impact, with deformation of the front section, the heavy poles become unbalanced and the centre of gravity is shifted rearward. This is ideal for slowing the rate of longitudinal rotation. Drag across the front of the broad and evenly deformed surface (thanks to bonding) is sufficient to keep the bullet's orientation stable. These same principles worked for the Apollo Command Modules during re-entry into the earth's atmosphere.
There are other factors at play when considering propensity of a bullet to tumble, but for the bullets considered to be good for big game (Swift A-Frame, Rhino, Barnes TSX), it is their non-centralised weight distribution and even frontal drag surface that helps avoid tumbling, over the distance of the insides of animal.
It's fascinating and sometimes counterintuitive to consider these principles, but physics will have its way, despite what we might think. Example: what is the easiest way to stop sailing yachts from inverting in big seas? Answer: add weight to the top of the mast! Huh? Just as with the broom stick and water bottle example, the rate of rotation is slowed enough for the overall shape to resist external forces long enough, until that force ceases when the wave moves on. The yacht returns to its upright position. Dismasted yachts are far more easily inverted in big seas. Bullets that lose their polarised mass distribution are far more likely to tumble. A Nosler Partition would make a good tumbling candidate.
The physics of that theory of stabilization escapes me but oh well. I tend to agree with IVW on this one. Generally to maintain front end forward, an elongated form object moving through any media will either have to be gyroscopically stabilized or inertially stabilized or be influenced by a combination of both. Once a bullet loses rotation and gyroscopic stabilization shortly after entering a dense, high friction media, inertial stabilization is realized or not. If not it will go unstable. Basically the concept for maintaining front end forward without gyroscopic stabilization is: center of mass needs to remain forward of center of pressure. BTW it is the only way a hollow base Minie' maintains stabilization in flight with minimal gyroscopic spin stabilization. Another misconception about "tumbling" is that most unstable bullets don't tumble in a classic sense but tend to pass through a condition of progressive, circular rotating yaw as they go unstable... and may even end up backwards at the terminus of penetration.

And the theory of stability during reentry with the Apollo vehicle and now BTW with the Orion form and the recent Mars landers for that matter is complex and does not square with your theory of stability with either weight (mass) forward or rearward. If that were true then a stabile elongated form would ideally be dumbbell shaped, having a very dense mass concentration at both ends. Try to make it fly one end forward! :) Guaranteed that thing would go instantly unstable passing through air or any media and if not gyrsotatically stabilized with rotation around the long axis. It would indeed probably start tumbling end over end in a classic form. :)
 
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shoot what works best in your gun!
Hi Andrew. Good point, well made. For me and my new 375 it's shaping up to be a case of - shoot what can be found for your gun.

After days of hunting around I have not found a single source that has Swift, Barnes, North Fork, South Fork or any fork. The best I've found is Hornady 270 gn Interlock and they'd be for target practice (pigs!) only. Hmmmm. :confused:

Who is eating all the bullets?
 
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Another misconception about "tumbling" is that most unstable bullets don't tumble in a classic sense but tend to pass through a condition of progressive, circular rotating yaw as they go unstable... and may even end up backwards at the terminus of penetration.
Yes. We use the word 'tumbling', but it's generally only a quarter or perhaps half a tumble that we witness and then only after a perfectly stable flight through air.
If anyone is getting good, consistent results from bullets that are tumbling before reaching their target animal, they should switch their attention to getting good, consistent results at the roulette wheel!
 
The reason Swifts work so good is that when they expand the rear portion also expands just behind the H, transfering weight forward.
TSX work at high speed. Only bullet I have seen doing very weird things. Shoot an impala on the left and another.drops on the right.....bullet making a 90 degree turn in the first one. Inconsistant.
All the controlled expansion bullets work very well.
I am one of the ones that dont like TSX
 
I am one of the ones that dont like TSX
I listened to an interview with Kevin Robertson. He talked about how a client used a 350gn 375 cal TSX, which, with its higher sectional density than the 300 grainer, punched through a buffalo bull and hit a cow behind. If I understand correctly, the PH and client weren't aware of this collateral damage, such that the cow surprised them while they were following up on the bull. She killed the client. Perhaps this is a well known story. I think I've got the basics of it correct.

I've been reading that some PHs insist that clients use expanding bullets only, for all shots on buffalo. There seems to be a point to this.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I want my choice of expanding bullet to be one that generally doesn't exit, even with an ideal, side-on, double lung shot with no big bones involved and perhaps even at close range. That's a tall order, but my scientific assessment causes me to be looking favourably upon the Swift A-Frame as a good candidate.

Now, to find some.
 
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All the controlled expansion bullets work very well.
I am one of the ones that dont like TSX
another PH i met here in AK felt the same way, he did not trust barnes bullets to "not tumble" or reliably expand. Hannes Swanopol was his name, a very nice guy.
 
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Hi Andrew. Good point, well made. For me and my new 375 it's shaping up to be a case of - shoot what can be found for your gun.

After days of hunting around I have not found a single source that has Swift, Barnes, North Fork, South Fork or any fork. The best I've found is Hornady 270 gn Interlock and they'd be for target practice (pigs!) only. Hmmmm. :confused:

Who is eating all the bullets?
If I were a reloader I would help you out, but I only buy loaded ammo. I do not have the time, skillset or patience to be loading ammo. For loaded ammo, have you looked at ammoseek.com?
 
Swift has had loaded ammo and components for a couple weeks. If you are unable to obtain any, pm me and I will see if I can help you
 
Swift has had loaded ammo and components for a couple weeks.
Thanks Firebird. This is encouraging news. Hopefully their products will be available through the usual channels. Thanks for the offer.
I can’t remember a time when getting stuff was so difficult. I understand that preppers might be buying up all the zombie loads they can get, along with canned beans, Snickers bars and toilet paper. But why are premium, exotic, big game bullets so hard to get? Everything, on every web page I look at, is ‘Out of Stock. No Backorder.’
 
Thanks Firebird. This is encouraging news. Hopefully their products will be available through the usual channels. Thanks for the offer.
I can’t remember a time when getting stuff was so difficult. I understand that preppers might be buying up all the zombie loads they can get, along with canned beans, Snickers bars and toilet paper. But why are premium, exotic, big game bullets so hard to get? Everything, on every web page I look at, is ‘Out of Stock. No Backorder.’
Because non premium bullets are still made with copper and lead would be my guess.

Not to mention the demand for copper for everything from catalytic converters to electrical wiring.
 
Not to mention the demand for copper for everything from catalytic converters to electrical wiring.
OK. A general shortage of raw materials could be plausible, but I’m not getting the sense that it’s happening. Perhaps I’m way out of touch. Are car showrooms empty, or houses being being left incomplete, due to shortages of common materials?

It could be that bullet manufacturers have been driven to shop around more than usual to get materials at reasonable prices, to keep prices for consumers as low as possible. Multiple supply-side disruptions can turn into major production problems.

By the way, my searching has led me to several US based sites. You guys there don’t realise how good the prices in your neck of the woods are. Enjoy!
 
A guy I know used to work for Barnes. He said they are always understaffed. He blamed un competitive pay wages and hard hours for staffing issues.
there are still some raw material shortages as well but it seems staffing and increased demand is the worst of it.
404 j not in high demand compared to 6.5 for example so the emphasis is on the most common ammo and components. . .
 

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