A question about African Leopards

IvW

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So where do we start?

Let us start with the article in question. Yes John Coleman has vast experience as a Professional hunter. The only question I have is how many actual leopard charges did he stop using AAA or SG as stated in his article....maybe one.

I also have an article written by a PH who followed up a wounded leopard, also using a shotgun, SxS loaded with AAA. He crawled into the confined space where the leopard was hiding(it was not a large leopard) and by his own account, although the leopard did not charge him, it was lying flat growling at him, seemingly blinded by the torch he was shining in its eyes. He shot at the leopard from the front(as it was lying facing him). Apart from the almighty bang and the dust the leopard sat up after the shot. Filled with fear he now pushed the barrels forward and with the muzzle almost touching the leopard, he fired the second barrel which fortunately killed the leopard.

The problem quite often is that authors often quote from other writings and hearsay rather than actual experience. Meaning in order to not be seen as not having an opinion regarding the issue they will say what they heard or read somewhere else and therefore they will claim a buck shot loaded shotgun as being the cats whiskers when following up on wounded leopard, because somebody else, normally some professional hunter of sorts said so.

Not even everything John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote is true...

Let me give a prime example of a well known Author and big game hunter who has followed up on one leopard hunt, after it was wounded with a 375 H&H using the wrong bullet and after bad shot placement, by himself. The leopard by the way was never found or even seen on the follow up. So we can safely come to the conclusion that this person has no experience following up wounded leopard and has never shot and killed a wounded leopard during a charge but he has an opinion as to what is the best to use on wounded leopard. What makes it worse is that thousands who read his books believe that and although it is a myth it is often mentioned.

I quote from his comments regarding Leopard hunting and what is best for follow up of wounded leopard.

"A shotgun would be ideal if you got a charge"
"When it comes to following up a wounded leopard, there's little argument-a shotgun loaded with coarse buckshot is the way to go"

How does he come to these conclusions if he has never faced a leopard charge and never had to stop a leopard charge? If there is no argument then why does he not at the same time recommend the correct shot size to use? Well it is simple he has never stopped a leopard charge (let alone stopped one using a buck shot loaded shot gun) and is just stating what others have said so as to not give the impression he does not know.

At some point he does talk sense about shot guns on safari and also for use on leopard. But allow me to make my comments and we will see that this also contradicts itself and again is the culmination of quoting or making assumptions about what others have said regarding the issue.

I quote again:

"Whatever shot gun is chosen, it simply must fit well and point naturally" Totally agree same goes for doubles and any other rifle for that matter.

"A charging cat must be hit, and hit squarely, to be stopped" Very good observation and true.

"At the close ranges you're dealing with-feet, not yards-there's very little pattern spread, and no margin for error. In fact you're actually delivering a ball of shot, at most a few inches across" Again correct, but herein lies the big problem I have with using buck shot for wounded leopard follow up. Why on earth do people then want to use buck shot rather than a slug for follow up on leopard? All you have done then is change the solid slug into a number of pellets which greatly reduces the ability to penetrate. Irrespective of what some folks think each and every pellet has to penetrate on its own. The solid slug has a far better SD and penetration ability then any number of pellets.

Then he states the most important and true part of the discussion:

"In terms of pattern, at such distances the shot charge from a shotgun offers little advantage over a SINGLE rifle bullet" Very very relevant and true.

"That isn't the reason the shotgun is preferred. Rather it's because the shotgun's fast handling abilities and lack of sights are better suited to the instinctive shooting essential to stopping a close range charge" Well done and again very true.

Semi automatic and pump action shotguns have no place as back up rifles in my opinion.

So we can agree on the following:

A shot gun is used by many for follow up on leopard for the following reasons:

1. It has handling abilities superior to a rifle for fast instinctive shooting. Especially if the barrels have been shortened to about 24".
2. It has two barrels and two shots available by just moving the trigger finger for a double trigger shotgun.
3. It is affordable for ones who cannot afford a double rifle.
4. A single bullet or slug has better penetration abilities than a bunch of round pellets.
5. Even if the leopard gets hold of you(in most cases the cat will grab the presented forearm as the victim brings it up to protect his face/neck) the shotgun can still be used with one hand to deliver the second shot.

In my opinion a double rifle chambered for the 375 H&H Flanged Magnum cartridge would be the ultimate leopard charge stopping rifle.

I could not afford that when I found the need for a leopard back up rifle. I went for the next best thing. What I refer to as the "Poor Man's Double". A shortened SxS 12ga shotgun loaded with Original Brenneke slugs. Before I used this combination as a back up rifle for wounded leopard I did extensive testing of different buck shot loads and there effect on game. The best test medium was large bush pigs of which I have shot many. All buck shot tested lacked the penetration of the Brenneke slug. In fact the Brenneke slug penetrated so well that we did not use them when hunting bush pig over hounds for fear of hitting one of them. For this we used a Spanish slug, which although killed them did not penetrate as well as the Brenneke.

The thread regarding this shot gun of mine can be viewed here as well as all the testing on various animals before I used it on leopard.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/poor-mans-double-rifle.47839/

Yes I have hunted a lot of leopard, during my first two years as an apprentice I was tasked to deal with problem leopards and lions. I shot 7 leopards, 5 lionesses and 1 lion in those first 2 years and gained very valuable experience. I hunted a lot more leopards after that, two of which went over 200lbs(221 lbs and 216lbs), the largest leopard I know of hunted in Zim went 225 lbs. And yes I had to follow up on wounded leopard on more than one occasion. The first one was when I realized I need a double rifle and ended up making this Poor man's double...it was also on this same follow up were I came to realize that SSG as used by the other PH was useless on leopard follow up....

Let us now have a look at the different Buck shot available(I only have available UK/European buck shot and not American) and what we have on hand.

Just to clear it up as well that AAA is actually regarded as Bird shot and not buck shot. I have found it satisfactory on the small forest duikers such as blue duiker, red duiker, common duiker and suni but will most certainly not use it on leopard.

I took out some of my 12ga cartridges and cut them open and made some actual measurements to compare. To not bore everybody I will not post all the pictures of the weights etc. from the scale.

DSC_0835.JPG

DSC_0836.JPG


upload_2019-12-24_12-41-7.png


What is most significant here is the weight of each individual pellet vs the Brenneke slug.

Furthermore it is disturbing to see that not all loads measure up to what is stated on the box or cartridge, many 35 gram loads being a lot less, in particular SG cartridges.

Remember everybody who states the use of buck shot always mentions(if they did it themselves or quoted others) that the shot must be held to the very last possible moment for it to be effective. So why would anybody prefer or recommend the use of any size buck shot rather than a solid slug? It makes no sense, whatsoever. A proper slug, Brenneke in particular, will out penetrate and out perform any buck shot on any animal all day long.

The only and I mean the only reason somebody should even consider the use of buck shot for wounded leopard would be the fact that that is the only cartridge available to you. If you had a choice, use a Brenneke slug every time.

To further push the point have a look at the following picture and tel me which you would consciously choose for the job if you had a choice?

Left to right:

Brenneke slug, LG, SG, SSG, AAA

DSC_0848.JPG


Personally I would only use the Brenneke slug.

Although I have extensively used my 12ga SxS Poor man's double, there is another one I have been using which is a 9.3x74R/12ga combination rifle, another excellent choice when a double rifle is not affordable. Below is the cartridge for comparison. The solid brass 12ga case is a Armour Brass one(no longer available), luckily I have 45 cases. I use this for my own hand loads with the Brenneke slugs and am experimenting with some loads at the moment. Below is an original Brenneke cartridge.

DSC_0849.JPG


So there you have it, my personal opinion, some may not like it but each can choose to use what they wish, personally in a 12ga shot gun for leopard, I would only use the original Brenneke slug, if somebody wants to use AAA bird shot or any other buck shot, Good luck.
 
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Major Khan

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So where do we start?

Let us start with the article in question. Yes John Coleman has vast experience as a Professional hunter. The only question I have is how many actual leopard charges did he stop using AAA or SG as stated in his article....maybe one.

I also have an article written by a PH who followed up a wounded leopard, also using a shotgun, SxS loaded with AAA. He crawled into the confined space where the leopard was hiding(it was not a large leopard) and by his own account, although the leopard did not charge him, it was lying flat growling at him, seemingly blinded by the torch he was shining in its eyes. He shot at the leopard from the front(as it was lying facing him). Apart from the almighty bang and the dust the leopard sat up after the shot. Filled with fear he now pushed the barrels forward and with the muzzle almost touching the leopard, he fired the second barrel which fortunately killed the leopard.

The problem quite often is that authors often quote from other writings and hearsay rather than actual experience. Meaning in order to not be seen as not having an opinion regarding the issue they will say what they heard or read somewhere else and therefore they will claim a buck shot loaded shotgun as being the cats whiskers when following up on wounded leopard, because somebody else, normally some professional hunter of sorts said so.

Not even everything John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote is true...

Let me give a prime example of a well known Author and big game hunter who has followed up on one leopard hunt, after it was wounded with a 375 H&H using the wrong bullet and after bad shot placement, by himself. The leopard by the way was never found or even seen on the follow up. So we can safely come to the conclusion that this person has no experience following up wounded leopard and has never shot and killed a wounded leopard during a charge but he has an opinion as to what is the best to use on wounded leopard. What makes it worse is that thousands who read his books believe that and although it is a myth it is often mentioned.

I quote from his comments regarding Leopard hunting and what is best for follow up of wounded leopard.

"A shotgun would be ideal if you got a charge"
"When it comes to following up a wounded leopard, there's little argument-a shotgun loaded with coarse buckshot is the way to go"

How does he come to these conclusions if he has never faced a leopard charge and never had to stop a leopard charge? If there is no argument then why does he not at the same time recommend the correct shot size to use? Well it is simple he has never stopped a leopard charge (let alone stopped one using a buck shot loaded shot gun) and is just stating what others have said so as to not give the impression he does not know.

At some point he does talk sense about shot guns on safari and also for use on leopard. But allow me to make my comments and we will see that this also contradicts itself and again is the culmination of quoting or making assumptions about what others have said regarding the issue.

I quote again:

"Whatever shot gun is chosen, it simply must fit well and point naturally" Totally agree same goes for doubles and any other rifle for that matter.

"A charging cat must be hit, and hit squarely, to be stopped" Very good observation and true.

"At the close ranges you're dealing with-feet, not yards-there's very little pattern spread, and no margin for error. In fact you're actually delivering a ball of shot, at most a few inches across" Again correct, but herein lies the big problem I have with using buck shot for wounded leopard follow up. Why on earth do people then want to use buck shot rather than a slug for follow up on leopard? All you have done then is change the solid slug into a number of pellets which greatly reduces the ability to penetrate. Irrespective of what some folks think each and every pellet has to penetrate on its own. The solid slug has a far better SD and penetration ability then any number of pellets.

Then he states the most important and true part of the discussion:

"In terms of pattern, at such distances the shot charge from a shotgun offers little advantage over a SINGLE rifle bullet" Very very relevant and true.

"That isn't the reason the shotgun is preferred. Rather it's because the shotgun's fast handling abilities and lack of sights are better suited to the instinctive shooting essential to stopping a close range charge" Well done and again very true.

Semi automatic and pump action shotguns have no place as back up rifles in my opinion.

So we can agree on the following:

A shot gun is used by many for follow up on leopard for the following reasons:

1. It has handling abilities superior to a rifle for fast instinctive shooting. Especially if the barrels have been shortened to about 24".
2. It has two barrels and two shots available by just moving the trigger finger for a double trigger shotgun.
3. It is affordable for ones who cannot afford a double rifle.
4. A single bullet or slug has better penetration abilities than a bunch of round pellets.
5. Even if the leopard gets hold of you(in most cases the cat will grab the presented forearm as the victim brings it up to protect his face/neck) the shotgun can still be used with one hand to deliver the second shot.

In my opinion a double rifle chambered for the 375 H&H Flanged Magnum cartridge would be the ultimate leopard charge stopping rifle.

I could not afford that when I found the need for a leopard back up rifle. I went for the next best thing. What I refer to as the "Poor Man's Double". A shortened SxS 12ga shotgun loaded with Original Brenneke slugs. Before I used this combination as a back up rifle for wounded leopard I did extensive testing of different buck shot loads and there effect on game. The best test medium was large bush pigs of which I have shot many. All buck shot tested lacked the penetration of the Brenneke slug. In fact the Brenneke slug penetrated so well that we did not use them when hunting bush pig over hounds for fear of hitting one of them. For this we used a Spanish slug, which although killed them did not penetrate as well as the Brenneke.

The thread regarding this shot gun of mine can be viewed here as well as all the testing on various animals before I used it on leopard.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/poor-mans-double-rifle.47839/

Yes I have hunted a lot of leopard, during my first two years as an apprentice I was tasked to deal with problem leopards and lions. I shot 7 leopards, 5 lionesses and 1 lion in those first 2 years and gained very valuable experience. I hunted a lot more leopards after that, two of which went over 200lbs(221 lbs and 216lbs), the largest leopard I know of hunted in Zim went 225 lbs. And yes I had to follow up on wounded leopard on more than one occasion. The first one was when I realized I need a double rifle and ended up making this Poor man's double...it was also on this same follow up were I came to realize that SSG as used by the other PH was useless on leopard follow up....

Let us now have a look at the different Buck shot available(I only have available UK/European buck shot and not American) and what we have on hand.

Just to clear it up as well that AAA is actually regarded as Bird shot and not buck shot. I have found it satisfactory on the small forest duikers such as blue duiker, red duiker, common duiker and suni but will most certainly not use it on leopard.

I took out some of my 12ga cartridges and cut them open and made some actual measurements to compare. To not bore everybody I will not post all the pictures of the weights etc. from the scale.

View attachment 320653
View attachment 320654

View attachment 320651

What is most significant here is the weight of each individual pellet vs the Brenneke slug.

Furthermore it is disturbing to see that not all loads measure up to what is stated on the box or cartridge, many 35 gram loads being a lot less, in particular SG cartridges.

Remember everybody who states the use of buck shot always mentions(if they did it themselves or quoted others) that the shot must be held to the very last possible moment for it to be effective. So why would anybody prefer or recommend the use of any size buck shot rather than a solid slug? It makes no sense, whatsoever. A proper slug, Brenneke in particular, will out penetrate and out perform any buck shot on any animal all day long.

The only and I mean the only reason somebody should even consider the use of buck shot for wounded leopard would be the fact that that is the only cartridge available to you. If you had a choice, use a Brenneke slug every time.

To further push the point have a look at the following picture and tel me which you would consciously choose for the job if you had a choice?

Left to right:

Brenneke slug, LG, SG, SSG, AAA

View attachment 320652

Personally I would only use the Brenneke slug.

Although I have extensively used my 12ga SxS Poor man's double, there is another one I have been using which is a 9.3x74R/12ga combination rifle, another excellent choice when a double rifle is not affordable. Below is the cartridge for comparison. The solid brass 12ga case is a Armour Brass one(no longer available), luckily I have 45 cases. I use this for my own hand loads with the Brenneke slugs and am experimenting with some loads at the moment. Below is an original Brenneke cartridge.

View attachment 320655

So there you have it, my personal opinion, some may not like it but each can choose to use what they wish, personally in a 12ga shot gun for leopard, I would only use the original Brenneke slug, if somebody wants to use AAA bird shot or any other buck shot, Good luck.
I am very grateful for your extremely educational response , IvW. I never once took the time to think that even though Mr. Coleman is an experienced professional , his expertise about dispatching a wounded leopard with triple A cartridges may be limited to 1 leopard at most .
Personally , l always use(d) triple A cartridges for mouse deer and 4 horned buck and geese and cranes .
Below , l have provided a photograph of a 4 horned buck , we hunted in the 1960s in the outskirts of Nagpur .
Screenshot_20191201-050937_01_01_01.png


I really like your terminology " Poor man's double barreled rifle " . When l think of it that way , my old gun with with which l used to back up clients during my career as a professional shikaree , could ( in principle ) also be called a " Poor man's double barreled rifle "
Below , l have provided a pair of photographs of my own " Poor man's double barreled rifle "
FB_IMG_1575727193927.jpg
FB_IMG_1575727191567.jpg

It is made in Belgium ( 12 calibre ) with 3 inch magnum chambers , extractors and 28 inch barrels ( left barrel is full choke and right barrel is modified choke) . I purchased it for 35 Rupees in 1959 .

Initially , l would use Eley Grand Prix spherical ball cartridges ( 2.5 inch length ) . Below l have attached a photograph taken from the internet of such a cartridge. It used a 16 calibre spherical lead ball , which was designed to pass through even the tightest of fully choked 12 calibre shot guns .
Screenshot_20191129-224431_01.png

However , the powder charge was simply too low for giving reliable penetration , so l shifted to Eley Alphamax Lethal Ball cartridges ( 2.75 inch length ) .
Below , l have provided a photograph taken from the internet of a Lethal Ball bullet . It was a 16 calibre ball , but with a " net " type interior designed to fragment inside animal .
They worked well on soft skinned animals , but shot placement had to be extremely critical , otherwise the lethal ball would fragment prematurely.
Screenshot_20191208-062004_01.png


However , my stock of these cartridges was exhausted by 1968 ( Eley stopped manufacturing Lethal Ball cartridges in 1957 )
So , l decided to remove the shot from Eley 3 inch Gas Tight cartridges and load them with the spherical ball 16 calibre bullets from the Eley Grand Prix spherical ball cartridges. With a good powder charge , they finally achieved a decent velocity to give reliable penetration on all Indian game ( even double lung shots for gaurs ) .
I used that old gun to kill 20 Indian forest panthers ( ranging from 170 pounds to 200 pounds ) and it served me very well.
After 60 years , l still use it extensively and the old gun never let me down , as l have kept it in pristine condition .

Thank you once again for your insight and helping to clear our misconceptions.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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So where do we start?

Let us start with the article in question. Yes John Coleman has vast experience as a Professional hunter. The only question I have is how many actual leopard charges did he stop using AAA or SG as stated in his article....maybe one.

I also have an article written by a PH who followed up a wounded leopard, also using a shotgun, SxS loaded with AAA. He crawled into the confined space where the leopard was hiding(it was not a large leopard) and by his own account, although the leopard did not charge him, it was lying flat growling at him, seemingly blinded by the torch he was shining in its eyes. He shot at the leopard from the front(as it was lying facing him). Apart from the almighty bang and the dust the leopard sat up after the shot. Filled with fear he now pushed the barrels forward and with the muzzle almost touching the leopard, he fired the second barrel which fortunately killed the leopard.

The problem quite often is that authors often quote from other writings and hearsay rather than actual experience. Meaning in order to not be seen as not having an opinion regarding the issue they will say what they heard or read somewhere else and therefore they will claim a buck shot loaded shotgun as being the cats whiskers when following up on wounded leopard, because somebody else, normally some professional hunter of sorts said so.

Not even everything John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote is true...

Let me give a prime example of a well known Author and big game hunter who has followed up on one leopard hunt, after it was wounded with a 375 H&H using the wrong bullet and after bad shot placement, by himself. The leopard by the way was never found or even seen on the follow up. So we can safely come to the conclusion that this person has no experience following up wounded leopard and has never shot and killed a wounded leopard during a charge but he has an opinion as to what is the best to use on wounded leopard. What makes it worse is that thousands who read his books believe that and although it is a myth it is often mentioned.

I quote from his comments regarding Leopard hunting and what is best for follow up of wounded leopard.

"A shotgun would be ideal if you got a charge"
"When it comes to following up a wounded leopard, there's little argument-a shotgun loaded with coarse buckshot is the way to go"

How does he come to these conclusions if he has never faced a leopard charge and never had to stop a leopard charge? If there is no argument then why does he not at the same time recommend the correct shot size to use? Well it is simple he has never stopped a leopard charge (let alone stopped one using a buck shot loaded shot gun) and is just stating what others have said so as to not give the impression he does not know.

At some point he does talk sense about shot guns on safari and also for use on leopard. But allow me to make my comments and we will see that this also contradicts itself and again is the culmination of quoting or making assumptions about what others have said regarding the issue.

I quote again:

"Whatever shot gun is chosen, it simply must fit well and point naturally" Totally agree same goes for doubles and any other rifle for that matter.

"A charging cat must be hit, and hit squarely, to be stopped" Very good observation and true.

"At the close ranges you're dealing with-feet, not yards-there's very little pattern spread, and no margin for error. In fact you're actually delivering a ball of shot, at most a few inches across" Again correct, but herein lies the big problem I have with using buck shot for wounded leopard follow up. Why on earth do people then want to use buck shot rather than a slug for follow up on leopard? All you have done then is change the solid slug into a number of pellets which greatly reduces the ability to penetrate. Irrespective of what some folks think each and every pellet has to penetrate on its own. The solid slug has a far better SD and penetration ability then any number of pellets.

Then he states the most important and true part of the discussion:

"In terms of pattern, at such distances the shot charge from a shotgun offers little advantage over a SINGLE rifle bullet" Very very relevant and true.

"That isn't the reason the shotgun is preferred. Rather it's because the shotgun's fast handling abilities and lack of sights are better suited to the instinctive shooting essential to stopping a close range charge" Well done and again very true.

Semi automatic and pump action shotguns have no place as back up rifles in my opinion.

So we can agree on the following:

A shot gun is used by many for follow up on leopard for the following reasons:

1. It has handling abilities superior to a rifle for fast instinctive shooting. Especially if the barrels have been shortened to about 24".
2. It has two barrels and two shots available by just moving the trigger finger for a double trigger shotgun.
3. It is affordable for ones who cannot afford a double rifle.
4. A single bullet or slug has better penetration abilities than a bunch of round pellets.
5. Even if the leopard gets hold of you(in most cases the cat will grab the presented forearm as the victim brings it up to protect his face/neck) the shotgun can still be used with one hand to deliver the second shot.

In my opinion a double rifle chambered for the 375 H&H Flanged Magnum cartridge would be the ultimate leopard charge stopping rifle.

I could not afford that when I found the need for a leopard back up rifle. I went for the next best thing. What I refer to as the "Poor Man's Double". A shortened SxS 12ga shotgun loaded with Original Brenneke slugs. Before I used this combination as a back up rifle for wounded leopard I did extensive testing of different buck shot loads and there effect on game. The best test medium was large bush pigs of which I have shot many. All buck shot tested lacked the penetration of the Brenneke slug. In fact the Brenneke slug penetrated so well that we did not use them when hunting bush pig over hounds for fear of hitting one of them. For this we used a Spanish slug, which although killed them did not penetrate as well as the Brenneke.

The thread regarding this shot gun of mine can be viewed here as well as all the testing on various animals before I used it on leopard.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/poor-mans-double-rifle.47839/

Yes I have hunted a lot of leopard, during my first two years as an apprentice I was tasked to deal with problem leopards and lions. I shot 7 leopards, 5 lionesses and 1 lion in those first 2 years and gained very valuable experience. I hunted a lot more leopards after that, two of which went over 200lbs(221 lbs and 216lbs), the largest leopard I know of hunted in Zim went 225 lbs. And yes I had to follow up on wounded leopard on more than one occasion. The first one was when I realized I need a double rifle and ended up making this Poor man's double...it was also on this same follow up were I came to realize that SSG as used by the other PH was useless on leopard follow up....

Let us now have a look at the different Buck shot available(I only have available UK/European buck shot and not American) and what we have on hand.

Just to clear it up as well that AAA is actually regarded as Bird shot and not buck shot. I have found it satisfactory on the small forest duikers such as blue duiker, red duiker, common duiker and suni but will most certainly not use it on leopard.

I took out some of my 12ga cartridges and cut them open and made some actual measurements to compare. To not bore everybody I will not post all the pictures of the weights etc. from the scale.

View attachment 320653
View attachment 320654

View attachment 320651

What is most significant here is the weight of each individual pellet vs the Brenneke slug.

Furthermore it is disturbing to see that not all loads measure up to what is stated on the box or cartridge, many 35 gram loads being a lot less, in particular SG cartridges.

Remember everybody who states the use of buck shot always mentions(if they did it themselves or quoted others) that the shot must be held to the very last possible moment for it to be effective. So why would anybody prefer or recommend the use of any size buck shot rather than a solid slug? It makes no sense, whatsoever. A proper slug, Brenneke in particular, will out penetrate and out perform any buck shot on any animal all day long.

The only and I mean the only reason somebody should even consider the use of buck shot for wounded leopard would be the fact that that is the only cartridge available to you. If you had a choice, use a Brenneke slug every time.

To further push the point have a look at the following picture and tel me which you would consciously choose for the job if you had a choice?

Left to right:

Brenneke slug, LG, SG, SSG, AAA

View attachment 320652

Personally I would only use the Brenneke slug.

Although I have extensively used my 12ga SxS Poor man's double, there is another one I have been using which is a 9.3x74R/12ga combination rifle, another excellent choice when a double rifle is not affordable. Below is the cartridge for comparison. The solid brass 12ga case is a Armour Brass one(no longer available), luckily I have 45 cases. I use this for my own hand loads with the Brenneke slugs and am experimenting with some loads at the moment. Below is an original Brenneke cartridge.

View attachment 320655

So there you have it, my personal opinion, some may not like it but each can choose to use what they wish, personally in a 12ga shot gun for leopard, I would only use the original Brenneke slug, if somebody wants to use AAA bird shot or any other buck shot, Good luck.
IvW
That was a most indepth and thorough reply . It assisted us in understanding a good deal about this confusion . As l understand things , then :
Mr . Coleman is extremely experienced as a White Hunter , but in regards to using AAA cartridges for wounded leopards , he is basing his belief on speculation , mostly and one wounded leopard , at most.
 
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ryan80

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Very good write-up IvW. I have 2 questions for you if you don't mind. I am completely ignorant of all of this, but am very interested so please forgive me if my questions are silly.

1. Is there any reason an over/under couldn't be used for this same function as a "poor man's double?" It seems that there are far more decent new over-unders being built for the US market these days as they are now highly preferred for skeet, trap and sporting clays over side by sides. I think that it might be easier to source a good used over under that is designed to handle modern powerful loads.
2. Have you tried any other of Brenneke's slugs, such as their Black Magic Magnums?They advertise this as for use as dangerous game protection with a 3" cartridge and a 602 grain slug at 1502 fps.
 

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Very good write-up IvW. I have 2 questions for you if you don't mind. I am completely ignorant of all of this, but am very interested so please forgive me if my questions are silly.

1. Is there any reason an over/under couldn't be used for this same function as a "poor man's double?" It seems that there are far more decent new over-unders being built for the US market these days as they are now highly preferred for skeet, trap and sporting clays over side by sides. I think that it might be easier to source a good used over under that is designed to handle modern powerful loads.
2. Have you tried any other of Brenneke's slugs, such as their Black Magic Magnums?They advertise this as for use as dangerous game protection with a 3" cartridge and a 602 grain slug at 1502 fps.

No reason whatsoever for not using a O/U, two triggers and you are good to go.

No, I have only used the original Brenneke as we are limited on what we can get hold of here. What I do prefer is that the wad on the old Brenneke is screwed onto the slug and is not plastic. Furthermore my shotgun is 2 3/4" so I cannot use 3".

I am however experimenting with increasing the weight by filling the cavity at the back of the slug(between slug and the wad). I have never found the original wanting but I have a very strong actioned side lock shotgun. The same action is used for a 3" version. I use very heavy Armour brass cases and want to see if I can up the weight of the slug to about 600 gr and the velocity in the region of 1500 as per what you mention above.

Only concern I would have is the increase in recoil(mine has been shortened to 24"). If this is not significant and does not effect the recovery time for the second shot it could work.

Not necessary to be quite honest but no one said we cannot experiment......
 

Newboomer

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Shotguns for birds. Rifles for everything else.
 

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little note in the margin:
I read correctly, a PH actually hunted elephants and buffs with the .458 and survived?:sleep:
 

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little note in the margin:
I read correctly, a PH actually hunted elephants and buffs with the .458 and survived?:sleep:

Fake news...

:whistle:

HWL
 

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"there is another one I have been using which is a 9.3x74R/12ga combination rifle, another excellent choice when a double rifle is not affordable".
 

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I would like to update everyone with a vital piece of information . 1 of Kawshik's students from Bangladesh Shooting Federation actually sent Mr. John Coleman a fan letter recently on my behalf and Mr. Coleman was kind enough to reply to the young man. It turns out that Mr. Coleman was actually using No. 4 buck shot for killing charging , wounded leopards . This No. 4 buckshot ( 34 pellets to the 2.75 inch cartridge ) is what Mr. John Coleman was referring to , as " AAA " . Mr. Coleman always used American shot gun cartridges and therefore his designation of triple A cartridges is different from the British designation of triple A cartridges which we Bangladeshis are familiar with. No. 4 buck shot pellets are actually much larger than the British triple A pellets . However , after my experiences as a professional shikaree , l personally believe that shot of any size is inappropriate and inadequate for leopards .
I learnt another interesting piece of information . The shot gun used by Mr. Coleman is the same make and model as the 1 used by @IvW . It is an old 12 calibre double barreled side by side shot gun made by Brno with 2.75 inch chambers and ejectors . The left barrel is modified choke and the right barrel has no choke . I can reproduce a tran script of the letter here should any of you gentlemen be interested.
 

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I agree with the vast majority here--that I would certainly not want to go looking for a wounded leopard if I were carrying only a shotgun loaded with buckshot of any size. I would have far more faith in a good slug (a Brenneke, perhaps), or a rifle. With that said, I have had the opportunity to kill (and see others kill) large numbers of whitetail deer with buckshot. This is certainly not to compare a Southern whitetail with a leopard; it is simply to offer a little information on the use of buckshot on deer ranging in weight from about 120 to around 180 or more pounds. I used buckshot on deer for several years because it was mandated either by the club with which I was hunting or by the county in which the hunting took place. If the rule said, "Shotguns Only," then I loaded with slugs. If it said "Buckshot Only, then that's what I went with. All my deer hunting now is with a rifle, and I haven't hunted deer with a shotgun for several years. However, in some conditions, such as in the thick swamps and palmetto thickets of eastern NC or SC, where shots are usually very fast and very close, it works pretty well. But it still has its limitations.

When I had to use it, I preferred the antimony-hardened, copper plated, and buffered buckshot in size 00. I have also used size 1, but I don't think it penetrated as reliably. Each 00 pellet was .33 caliber and weighed about 54 grains, and there were 12 of them in a 2 3/4 inch magnum shell, or 15 in a 3" magnum shell. I had a close friend who used a 10-gauge 3 1/2 inch magnum, which held 18 of the 00 pellets per shell. Even he, with this ponderous cannon, said he didn't think it killed deer very reliably beyond 25 yards. We both have seen clean kills with the stuff at longer ranges, but people who talk about killing deer with it at very long distances are always remembering one lucky instance out of many unfortunate ones, I think.

I found on broadside shots at close range, the buckshot would easily penetrate to the vitals of an adult whitetail, and the kills were often impressively quick--instantaneous, in fact. Pellets would never exit the deer. On angled shots, buckshot was much less reliable because of the danger of deflection by heavy bones and muscles and under penetration. In those cases, a lot of luck was involved--you give yourself 12 or 15 chances to get several pellets through to the vital area. I can't imagine that it would be very reliable on the thick, slanted skull of a big cat. Each pellet, even at very close range, is very light--only a third heavier than a slug from a .22 long rifle, and going at about the same speed. The hardened, plated shot penetrated better than the cheaper lead shot, but I still wouldn't want to test it out on a leopard that was trying to rearrange my anatomy.
 

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