A question about African Leopards

Major Khan

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While doing a search on the Internet about African game , l came across a recent post on an online group where members were talking about a White Hunter ( or professional hunter ) who recommends using a 12 calibre double barreled shot gun loaded with triple A cartridges to dispatch wounded African leopard ( the African cousin of the Indian panther ) . I found the idea preposterous and so decided to read about this professional hunter myself . His name is Mr. John Coleman and below , l have provided photographs taken by myself of an article which l am reading on my tablet , written by this gentleman .
IMG_20191222_013509.jpg
IMG_20191222_013519.jpg
IMG_20191222_013525.jpg

In the second page , Mr. Coleman recommends that for following up wounded leopards , the best weapon is a " 12 bore shot gun loaded with AAA ".
I do not doubt this gentleman's proficiency even 1 bit as he is appears to be extremely experienced . However , from my personal experience , shot of any size is unthinkable for Indian panthers , which can get up to 200 pounds . LG cartridges ( the largest shot size) lack penetration on panthers and triple A is the smallest size of buck shot on the market . During my career as a professional shikaree , l used triple A cartridges to shoot cranes , geese , mouse deer , barking deer and small 4 horned buck .
I would never imagine a shikaree attempting to use triple A on wounded leopards ( which l am told , are identical to Indian panthers ). There would simply not be enough penetration .
This , l simply must ask all my dear forum members . Are African leopards typically smaller than Indian panthers and do they have softer frames ?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated .
Yours sincerely,
Major Poton Khan ( Retired )
 

PHOENIX PHIL

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African leopards can push 200lbs too, but that would be quite a large Tom. But to answer your question, it would seem they’re roughly the same size.

As to whether to use a shotgun, and if so what shot versus a rifle.....that’s a debate that near as I can tell will never be settled. However it seems like from what I read, most African PHs will carry a rifle for follow up.
 

Major Khan

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African leopards can push 200lbs too, but that would be quite a large Tom. But to answer your question, it would seem they’re roughly the same size.

As to whether to use a shotgun, and if so what shot versus a rifle.....that’s a debate that near as I can tell will never be settled. However it seems like from what I read, most African PHs will carry a rifle for follow up.
Thank you so much for your educational response , Phoenix Phil . Kawshik himself managed to use SG cartridges to kill the bulk of his 32 panthers , even though he struggled a great deal. I just found the thought of any one recommending triple A cartridges to use on leopard very appalling. The diameter of each pellet is only 5.1 mm .
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Poton
I believe that this is a question @IvW might be able to answer , as he himself is a White Hunter and knows many in the industry. I struggled bad enough as it were, with SG cartridges to kill Indian hunting leopards . I shudder to think about using AAA to go after leopards .
 

Major Khan

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Poton
I believe that this is a question @IvW might be able to answer , as he himself is a White Hunter and knows many in the industry. I struggled bad enough as it were, with SG cartridges to kill Indian hunting leopards . I shudder to think about using AAA to go after leopards .
That is exactly what l am thinking , Kawshik . Triple A can barely be considered buck shot .
 

Kawshik Rahman

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That is exactly what l am thinking , Kawshik . Triple A can barely be considered buck shot .
Poton
I have read somewhere that different countries use different definitions for the same name of shot size . So the South African AAA shot size may be larger than the British colonial AAA shot size which we are familiar with.
 

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I agree that small buckshot for shooting leopards ( panthers) is not a good idea. But I have a bit of experience using birdshot to dispatch cattle when butchering domestic stock or birdshot to kill other injured farm animals. If you are very close, the size of shot matters very little. A swarm of shot penetrates adequately even on very large animals. I have killed beef cattle very dead with a load of #4 birdshot from the distance depicted in the dramatic drawing that accompanied the article. But I would never want to be forced to use a load for leopards that only works from a couple of steps away!
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Thank you so much for your educational response , Phoenix Phil . Kawshik himself managed to use SG cartridges to kill the bulk of his 32 panthers , even though he struggled a great deal. I just found the thought of any one recommending triple A cartridges to use on leopard very appalling. The diameter of each pellet is only 5.1 mm .

5,1mm / AAA (UK Size) also seems a little weak to me , but 000 to Tri-Ball 12 (US Size) is certainly a good medicine for leopards ...and even may be lions (!!?).

For such hunts some German hunters used in the old days Drillings that were loaded with buck shot and a cartridge like the 9.3x74R or larger in reserve. They are said to have been efficient when hunting lions , but I was not there in Africa for hunting during these times , let alone born !
 

Major Khan

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5,1mm / AAA (UK Size) also seems a little weak to me , but 000 to Tri-Ball 12 (US Size) is certainly a good medicine for leopards ...and even may be lions (!!?).

For such hunts some German hunters used in the old days Drillings that were loaded with buck shot and a cartridge like the 9.3x74R or larger in reserve. They are said to have been efficient when hunting lions , but I was not there in Africa for hunting during these times , let alone born !
That is exactly what l was thinking , Kurpfalzjager . 000 is similar to LG , yes ? LG cannot reliably be used to stop a large panther ( unless you shoot it repeatedly , like what Kawshik had to do ) , but on the smaller female panthers weighing around 100 pounds , it would work . I am not familiar with the Tri -ball cartridges . I will need to look into it more to understand how they work .
However , the use of triple A cartridges to stop a charging African leopard baffles me . These cartridges typically hold 44 pellets in them , each of which is 5.1 mm and seems rather small . I use triple A cartridges for geese , cranes , mouse deer and 4 horned buck and barking deer . But l would never imagine trying to use triple A cartridges on anything larger than that , especially something with teeth and claws which is intent on causing me harm .
 

Major Khan

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I agree that small buckshot for shooting leopards ( panthers) is not a good idea. But I have a bit of experience using birdshot to dispatch cattle when butchering domestic stock or birdshot to kill other injured farm animals. If you are very close, the size of shot matters very little. A swarm of shot penetrates adequately even on very large animals. I have killed beef cattle very dead with a load of #4 birdshot from the distance depicted in the dramatic drawing that accompanied the article. But I would never want to be forced to use a load for leopards that only works from a couple of steps away!
Exactly , Long Walker . Smaller buck shot like triple A cartridges seems to be suicidal to use on a leopard . I have extremely strong doubts that any of it could penetrate a leopard's skull . Infact , due to the shape of a leopard's skull , l dare say that most of the pellets would glance off !
 

Major Khan

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Major you might be interested in the thread buckshot and leopards: fact or fiction. There is a lot of discussion on this topic there.
Why thank you so much , Master Smith. I am looking at it right away . I think l found it. Kawshik commented there.
 

Philip Glass

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While doing a search on the Internet about African game , l came across a recent post on an online group where members were talking about a White Hunter ( or professional hunter ) who recommends using a 12 calibre double barreled shot gun loaded with triple A cartridges to dispatch wounded African leopard ( the African cousin of the Indian panther ) . I found the idea preposterous and so decided to read about this professional hunter myself . His name is Mr. John Coleman and below , l have provided photographs taken by myself of an article which l am reading on my tablet , written by this gentleman .
View attachment 320536 View attachment 320537 View attachment 320538
In the second page , Mr. Coleman recommends that for following up wounded leopards , the best weapon is a " 12 bore shot gun loaded with AAA ".
I do not doubt this gentleman's proficiency even 1 bit as he is appears to be extremely experienced . However , from my personal experience , shot of any size is unthinkable for Indian panthers , which can get up to 200 pounds . LG cartridges ( the largest shot size) lack penetration on panthers and triple A is the smallest size of buck shot on the market . During my career as a professional shikaree , l used triple A cartridges to shoot cranes , geese , mouse deer , barking deer and small 4 horned buck .
I would never imagine a shikaree attempting to use triple A on wounded leopards ( which l am told , are identical to Indian panthers ). There would simply not be enough penetration .
This , l simply must ask all my dear forum members . Are African leopards typically smaller than Indian panthers and do they have softer frames ?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated .
Yours sincerely,
Major Poton Khan ( Retired )
There are a few who choose to use 12ga shotguns but with large buckshot for follow ups. I’ve never heard of anyone using small buckshot as you describe. It’s a controversial subject with many pros and cons. From what I’ve seen a double rifle in experienced hands is the best follow up gun for a wounded DG animal.
 

Major Khan

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There are a few who choose to use 12ga shotguns but with large buckshot for follow ups. I’ve never heard of anyone using small buckshot as you describe. It’s a controversial subject with many pros and cons. From what I’ve seen a double rifle in experienced hands is the best follow up gun for a wounded DG animal.
I 100 % agree with you. This is the gun which l would use for Panthers back when l used to be a professional shikaree .
FB_IMG_1575727193927.jpg

It is a Belgian 12 calibre double barreled side by side shot gun , which l would load either with Eley Alphamax Lethal Ball cartridges or Eley Alphamax spherical ball cartridges . It would work very well on even the heaviest of panthers ( 200 pound weight ) .
I never used buck shot of any form to hunt any mammals . I only used an Eley Alphamax LG cartridge once in my first attempt to kill a panther . But l was unimpressed by the lack of penetration and l also ended up accidentally killing the goat which l was using as bait .
Below , l have provided a photograph of the article page written by Mr. John Coleman about using AAA cartridges for wounded African leopards .
IMG_20191222_013519.jpg

I am just as astonished as you are , Mr. Glass. Because l have never seen or heard of anyone ever recommend triple A cartridges for leopards .
 

kurpfalzjäger

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That is exactly what l was thinking , Kurpfalzjager . 000 is similar to LG , yes ? LG cannot reliably be used to stop a large panther ( unless you shoot it repeatedly , like what Kawshik had to do ) , but on the smaller female panthers weighing around 100 pounds , it would work . I am not familiar with the Tri -ball cartridges . I will need to look into it more to understand how they work .
However , the use of triple A cartridges to stop a charging African leopard baffles me . These cartridges typically hold 44 pellets in them , each of which is 5.1 mm and seems rather small . I use triple A cartridges for geese , cranes , mouse deer and 4 horned buck and barking deer . But l would never imagine trying to use triple A cartridges on anything larger than that , especially something with teeth and claws which is intent on causing me harm .

Buckshot is not allowed for hunting in many countries of Europe so that only little experience with such loads can be presented. In France an exception is made for Corsica , to avoid a rebellion , and especially for Guyana in South America where the hunters who hunt in the Amazon rain forest often use it. They say that's not the size of the shots that kills , but the number of impacts on the game. I cannot say more about it.
 

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Poton
I believe that this is a question @IvW might be able to answer , as he himself is a White Hunter and knows many in the industry. I struggled bad enough as it were, with SG cartridges to kill Indian hunting leopards . I shudder to think about using AAA to go after leopards .

I will respond later with a detailed reply, for now I will just say that following up a wounded leopard with AAA shot is like going to a gunfight with a knife....a small knife...
 

Major Khan

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I will respond later with a detailed reply, for now I will just say that following up a wounded leopard with AAA shot is like going to a gunfight with a knife....a small knife...
Thank you , Mr. IvW . I have used LG only once to shoot at a forest panther and l was extremely unimpressed by the lack of penetration . Why an experienced professional hunter like Mr. Coleman would recommend triple A cartridges for injured leopards is astonishing.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Coleman will have an experience if he says something like that.

The gunshot seems to me to be something completely different than the shot with a bullet. My father , and also other hunters , shot sometimes Roe deers with 16-gauge gunshot n°3 , about 3,5mm pellets ! Normally one would say that these cartridges would be just enough for a hare in wintertime. There seems to be a shock effect and not only a wound that kill. Unfortunately i have no experience with gunshots on larger game.
 

Major Khan

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Coleman will have an experience if he says something like that.

The gunshot seems to me to be something completely different than the shot with a bullet. My father , and also other hunters , shot sometimes Roe deers with 16-gauge gunshot n°3 , about 3,5mm pellets ! Normally one would say that these cartridges would be just enough for a hare in wintertime. There seems to be a shock effect and not only a wound that kill. Unfortunately i have no experience with gunshots on larger game.
Oh yes , that is plausable . Roe deer are only little larger than our Indian mouse deer . For Indian mouse deer , we use triple A cartridges , Kurpfalzjager .
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I will respond later with a detailed reply, for now I will just say that following up a wounded leopard with AAA shot is like going to a gunfight with a knife....a small knife...
IvW
Thank you so much for agreeing to help out. If anyone would know why an experienced professional Shikari like John Coleman would AAA shot for wounded leopards , it would probably be you . AAA is for mouse deer.
 

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