458 Flat Nosed Solids For Elephant

[TOBY458]

Well the mailman arrived today. He brought 40 Cutting Edge 450gr 458 Solids. And 50 Cutting Edge 400gr 416 Solids. Now to test feed and function in my two Winchester 70s.
Looking at the bullets and seeing them side by side, I can't imagine an Elephant could tell much difference between the two. These 450gr 458s at 2250fps should indeed put the 458 Win Mag well into Elephant rifle territory, if everything I've read is correct.

 

[baxterb]

I saw a report/picture of a 450 gr Barnes FN solid that went from the forehead to the hip of a cow elephant. This from a 458 win mag.

I have 90 of them…but no win mag! Ha! At .25c each they were impossible to pass up!

 

[zephyr]

Shot my Tuskless with my 450NE and a 480gr CEB Solid 2150fps frontal Brain shot in 2012 ... As far as I know it's still going...
Numerous other Beasties both big and small with CEB bullets all with excellent terminal results

 

[TOBY458]

I saw a report/picture of a 450 gr Barnes FN solid that went from the forehead to the hip of a cow elephant. This from a 458 win mag.

I have 90 of them…but no win mag! Ha! At .25c each they were impossible to pass up!

I'll double your money for ya! Lol!

 

[One Day...]

+1 to everything, but special mention to Nhoro for a very real point:

... just make sure your rifle feeds flat nose solids- most do not !

Many folks would be amazed at the number of rifles that rely on the rounded nose of the bullet to feed, including pretty iconic DG rifles wearing prestigious British, Belgian or German names

And especially with the short-cased .458 Win

Now that does NOT mean that most rifles cannot be made to feed flat nose bullets, but a little tuning may be involved, especially when the meplat goes over 60% of caliber (which is what makes it so effective on game)...

In any case, it is worth checking, and remembering that lightning speed bolt movement in self defense shooting often produces different results from more sedate bolt movement during casual shooting at the range...

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well the mailman arrived today. He brought 40 Cutting Edge 450gr 458 Solids. And 50 Cutting Edge 400gr 416 Solids. Now to test feed and function in my two Winchester 70s.
Looking at the bullets and seeing them side by side, I can't imagine an Elephant could tell much difference between the two. These 450gr 458s at 2250fps should indeed put the 458 Win Mag well into Elephant rifle territory, if everything I've read is correct.

I’ll be quite surprised if they don’t feed just fine.

I believe @michael458 put one of these thru like a ten inch tree which then went into one side of a buff and out the other side.

 

[TOBY458]

+1 to everything, but special mention to Nhoro for a very real point:


Many folks would be amazed at the number of rifles that rely on the rounded nose of the bullet to feed, including pretty iconic DG rifles wearing prestigious British, Belgian or German names

And especially with the short-cased .458 Win

Now that does NOT mean that most rifles cannot be made to feed flat nose bullets, but a little tuning may be involved, especially when the meplat goes over 60% of caliber (which is what makes it so effective on game)...

In any case, it is worth checking, and remembering that lightning speed bolt movement in self defense shooting often produces different results from more sedate bolt movement during casual shooting at the range...

The model 70 458 I used to own would feed the Barnes flat point solids very well, so I'm hoping my current rifle will feed them as well. Should know soon.

 

[Nhoro]

Model 70 actions are often said to feed flat points better than other actions. They bevel the mouth of the chamber so that bullets bounce in off the chamfer. CZ have a pretty sharp corner which catches bullets. That said, a friend of mine has a Model 70 (pre 64 I think) and it will not feed flats nose bullets.

I worked hard on my CZ to get it feeding flat nose solids. It even feeds a bullet loaded back to front (almost 100 % meplat) A good gunsmith should be able to get it working well. I do think that it is worth the effort. A 450 or 480 gr copper or brass solid is a good option for the 458 win mag, better IMHO than a 500 gr conventional round nose solid at 2150 fps. I may get burned at the stake but I think that the Winchester action is probably better as a win mag. The CZ action is larger and probably better as a Lott. I still have some 450 and 480 gr loads although I now carry 515 gr mono copper flat nose solids at 2195 fps. 450 gr (@ 2270 fps) and 480 gr 2 2145 fps performed well, but the angles were just too tight to get them to feed well in my CZ. I think all 3 of those bullets and velocities will do the job,

 

[michael458]

if everything I've read is correct.

Hmmm? I have not decided exactly how to consider that statement. Initial first thoughts is not positively.

@michael458 this is something I wish you would chime in on. Thanks!

You asked me. I answered you with fact, not opinion.

I’ll be quite surprised if they don’t feed just fine.

I have yet to see a newer Classic Control Feed Winchester M70 not feed/function with these bullets. I currently own 39 such rifles from 416 caliber +. This number is down from a few years ago having sold off most of the 416 Remingtons, 458 Winchesters, 458 Lotts, and 470 Capstick on M70s. I kept a few 458s. Sometimes when converting these guns to something else, you can run into magazine retention issues especially from .458 +, but that is a separate issue from feeding into the chamber.

I believe @michael458 put one of these thru like a ten inch tree which then went into one side of a buff and out the other side.

Indeed, almost correct, it was actually a .500 caliber CEB 450 gr Solid from a 500 B&M, velocity around 2350 fps as I recall from the 18 inch barrel. It also hit the tree so hard it knocked all the bark off one side. Busted completely through the tree, hit the buffalo on the shoulder and passed completely through the buffalo..........it was at least a 10 inch diameter tree, probably a bit more actually, as you can see........This is also a fact, if you can believe what you read...>>?

 

[TOBY458]

@michael458. I was not doubting your facts at all. It was just a general statement. I've read elsewhere that the 450 gr bullet makes the 458 Win Mag perform as it was designed to perform, and your statements back that up. I appreciate all of the indepth posts you make on this sudject, as I know you have more experience on this subject than most.

 

[michael458]

It was just a general statement

Works for me..... No Worries......

Indeed, almost correct, it was actually a .500 caliber CEB 450 gr Solid from a 500 B&M, velocity around 2350 fps as I recall from the 18 inch barrel. It also hit the tree so hard it knocked all the bark off one side. Busted completely through the tree, hit the buffalo on the shoulder and passed completely through the buffalo........

I did not mention the buffalo had already taken a 410 .500 caliber Raptor on the point of the left shoulder, which destroyed the bone on the left, heart, lungs, and everything else in the chest cavity and came to rest 4 feet back other side of the stomach in the hide on the far right side. Buffalo turned with right shoulder to me, and stood there quivering. The solid was not required, but I did not know that at the moment fired. Anyway, what's the point in carrying ammo home, shoot it up........

 

[TOBY458]

@michael458, will the standard Model 70 twist rate stabilize the 400gr Safari solid?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@michael458, will the standard Model 70 twist rate stabilize the 400gr Safari solid?

Load them up and find out Toby!

 

[Wyatt Smith]

They’re not as long as 400 grain TSX are they. People use them with good results.

 

[One Day...]

... I may get burned at the stake but I think that the Winchester action is probably better as a win mag. The CZ action is larger and probably better as a Lott.

Absolutely correct

This is due to the Win 70 action being standard length, i.e. perfectly adapted to the original Winchester "short" magnums: .264 Win, .300 Win, .338 Win, .458 Win, and barely OK, but OK, for the .375 H&H that is greatly helped in the feeding process by its generally conical bullets and its slopping shoulder. Conversely the CZ 550 Magnum action (but not the CZ 550 American) is sized for the Rigby family, which makes its magazine in fact too long for the .458 Win, but gives it a much better feeding angle for the .458 Lott than the Win 70 can achieve.

 

[Inline6]

All I can say is my M70 in 416RM feeds rounds like a sewing machine. They are the same length as a 458 lott, I'm not sure why it would be any different.

I agree with you the CZ550 magnum action is longer I'm just not convinced it is better. I have had the CZ nothing wrong with either of them.

 

[michael458]

@michael458, will the standard Model 70 twist rate stabilize the 400gr Safari solid?

I assume you meant to type 450 Safari Solid... direct answer to your question is YES, zero issues on that front. At one time I had 4-5 M70s in 458 Winchester and all did great with the bullet, and the 458 Lotts I had did great as well......I am not 100% sure, but I believe the twist rates on the Winchesters are 1:14. All my 458 B&Ms are 1:14 and they do fine, in fact in the 458 EX I just finished up loading a batch of 480s I had left over from the old days to have ammo on the shelf for that rifle. From here out I won't use anything but the 450s regardless of 458 cartridge.

There is a 400 Lever Gun Solid, but it has a short nose projection so it can be used in the lever guns.
In addition to the 325 Lever Solid as well.

 

[michael458]

I ran across these photos this morning, and I think they speak loudly to the ability of the 450 CEB Safari Solid being able to do its job, and crunch bone in the process........

This elephant was taken with 458 B&M 18 inch gun and 450 CEB Safari Solids. In the 18 inch guns the bullet runs 2200-2220 fps depending on the gun. As you see from these photos, this elephant was completely broken down in the front, on both sides. Bullet exited after doing all this.........

 

[TOBY458]

I assume you meant to type 450 Safari Solid... direct answer to your question is YES, zero issues on that front. At one time I had 4-5 M70s in 458 Winchester and all did great with the bullet, and the 458 Lotts I had did great as well......I am not 100% sure, but I believe the twist rates on the Winchesters are 1:14. All my 458 B&Ms are 1:14 and they do fine, in fact in the 458 EX I just finished up loading a batch of 480s I had left over from the old days to have ammo on the shelf for that rifle. From here out I won't use anything but the 450s regardless of 458 cartridge.

There is a 400 Lever Gun Solid, but it has a short nose projection so it can be used in the lever guns.
In addition to the 325 Lever Solid as well.

I actually left out the 416 part of the question. I meant to say 416 400gr Safari Solid. But I do appreciate your reply nevertheless. I have a Model 70 in both 416 Rem Mag and 458 Win Mag, and like you said, I believe they are both 1:14 twist. I already have my 416 set up in a McMillan stock with the correct LOP, have shot this gun quite a bit, and have killed a Cape Buffalo with it as well. So I haven't taken it completely off the table yet for the tuskless hunt. But I may end up getting another stock for the 458 and using it instead. The factory stock on the 458 Safari Express that I have is way too short for me, so I'd need to get a Mcmillan for it as well.

 

[TOBY458]

I can't even begin to tell you the last time I opened a Loading Manual from anyone, it has been many years, if not decades.......

But, I do in fact have a Barnes #3 Manual....... Not sure how old that one is....? Here is the jest of what I see, they only two powders that I tested, RL 7 and IMR 3031. The RL 7 is off by 4 grains, but that is nothing, as you have tremendous variances in RL 7 from one pound to the next, regardless of date, and regardless of lot#. RL 7 is one of those powders that you really have to be careful with, you cannot by any stretch of the imagination use data from one keg to the next, much less from one year to the next..... I use a lot of RL 7 in various cartridges. Normally I take 15-25 lbs at a time, dump it all together, mix and blend it well, then use data on THAT BATCH of RL 7 until it runs out.......

The IMR 3031 data in #3 is within 2 grains of my data on max.

If the data in #3 was H-4895 instead of IMR 4895, it was be dead on the money with my data.

So I am not sure what Barnes Manual you are looking at? Or data in it, if its not #3..........#3 looks to be 20 years old....... LOL........

Example of a recent Blending.........

View attachment 401958View attachment 401959View attachment 401960View attachment 401961

These blends were close, but not close enough. Each has their own data. My Lot# is the Date that it was blended.........

And I use a Oehler System 83 to do Pressure tests............

View attachment 401956View attachment 401957

My manual is #4. Which I believe is the first to show the banded solids, but I may be mistaken.