45-70 for dangerous game?

[Doug Hamilton]

IVW, i agree with most of what you post. my only question is... with a good solid, 458 400 gr bullet put on the buffalo's shoulder or just behind, you don't think it would do the job? i expect it would end up under the hide on the opposite side or a complete pass thru.

re: 100 fps and pressure, yeah, the 450-400 is a bit better at both, regardless, would the 458 bullet noted above work?

i would agree, would not be a great choice as a stopping rifle, but i suspect a charging buff shot in the head with the above combo would die anyway. yeah/no?

I just got my 45/70 bolt action rifle back from the gunsmith today. Now I can get back to tightening up my 300 ttsx group. It was at 1 1/2 inch at 100 yds. If I can get it at one inch or less its going on the plane to SA. No Cape Buffalo on this trip. just Zebra, Blue Wildebeest, Gemsbok, Impala and Warthog.

It should be great for those species!

 

[Tundra Tiger]

My hat is off to you sir. I have had friends who were VPSOs in villages I have been in.

 

[1dirthawker]

I had a similar idea... built a bolt action .450 Marlin on a Ruger M77 Mark II Stainless action... I shoot 350 grain RN's at 2250 for bears... smooth gun and fast handling. Very happy with it... doing some bullet and scope experimentation with it now before spring bear season starts.

cool idea, and cool rifle

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

My hat is off to you sir. I have had friends who were VPSOs in villages I have been in.

Thank you

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

My hat is off to you sir. I have had friends who were VPSOs in villages I have been in.

I started in 2001. I have been in 4 different villages.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I started in 2001. I have been in 4 different villages.

Which villages? I had one VPSO friend, he'd come get me (we lived in the same triplex and were hunting buddies) when he needed help with a difficult or hopped up perp. My opinion from watching him and another friend who was also a VPSO? It's kind of a suck-ass job.

 

[1:66 twiste@d]

Which villages? I had one VPSO friend, he'd come get me (we lived in the same triplex and were hunting buddies) when he needed help with a difficult or hopped up perp. My opinion from watching him and another friend who was also a VPSO? It's kind of a suck-ass job.

Chauthbuluk, McGrath, False Pass and Chenega.

 

[IvW]

You keep forgetting that the mono solids perform differently (ie: loads better) to conventional bullets.

You keep forgetting we dont hunt buffalo with solids. Also not leopard and lion. Only elephant....for which this peashooter is not suited ....very iffy for dg..

 

[RETD16]

Would folks be comfortable with a 480 DGX Bonded @ 1900 fps with 3850 ft/lb for Buffalo under 100 yards?

My 338 Win Mag has more (at least 400-500) more ft lbs of energy than that load. A 45/70 Govt is just dumb against an animal that takes rounds from true DG calibers, and keeps coming after you!!!

 

[michael458]

This thread is a hoot....... lots of fun to be honest..........

The title of this thread is;

45/70 for Dangerous Game?
It does not ask or state this: Is the 45/70 a good stopping cartridge for Dangerous Game? Should 45/70 be the New King of Dangerous Game Cartridges? Does the 45/70 have enough energy for Dangerous Game? And and and and, Blah blah blah.................

Now, as I read this 45/70 for Dangerous Game?........ I see it more as a question, "Can the 45/70 be used for Dangerous Game?"....... That is how I interpret the Title of the thread............

Define Dangerous Game; I see a hell of a lot of "Buffalo" here....... Well, Dangerous Game can also include the big bears in Alaska or even little bears for that matter, both are known to dine on various folks in the wild. Now we have known for a 100 years that 45/70s have been used with incredible success in Alaska for "Dangerous Game", if indeed you consider Bears dangerous. I think I would, they have teeth and big claws, very strong, and do on occasion eat various sorts of people. Moose can be extremely dangerous as well, we have all seen the videos of insane moose attacking people, adn a damn moose is BIG. 45/70s have been used a long time on Moose, I shot the only moose I ever shot with a 45/70 myself back in 2001 I believe.

Dangerous Game? Well, leopard are damn dangerous if you screw around with one. Not very big, 120-140 lbs or so..... I think 45/70 would do just fine on those. Lion? Yeah, I know the better expanding bullets and some of the Raptors, North Fork Expanding CPS, and I would look damn hard at the Lehigh Extremes too....... all these would hammer lions, bears and turn leopard inside out...........

Yes, of course Buffalo, Elephant and Hippo. And this is where 45/70, even fans of 45/70s and rifles they come in, have to question seriously. I know for a fact, what I would do with a cartridge like 45/70,

You keep forgetting we dont hunt buffalo with solids.

Sometimes we don't always agree on many things, sometimes we do, but in the case of 45/70 and other low pressure, lower velocity cartridges, then a Solid is the best bet if you start to stretch capabilities of the Cartridge and Rifle. Not so many years ago My friend, had a friend, lived 2000 miles, and he wanted to hunt buffalo with 45/70 Guide Gun..... End of story. My friend asked that I help in this endeavor. This fellow was not really a shooter, just a common fellow. My task was to choose a load and bullet combination that would allow him to be successful. After much consideration, I decided to keep things as simple as possible, so I loaded the 400 gr CEB Lever Solids at 1850 fps. I know the penetration is there for this endeavor. Sent him his ammo, and off he goes....... OK.... One round about 30 yards, dead through the heart, exits far side, buffalo runs 25 yards and falls over Stone Cold Dead. So just how dead do you want him to be? Oh but this is not a stopping round, say they...... Well, They, the question and the thread does not say crap about Stopping Cartridge........... 45/70 for Dangerous Game? Obviously buffalo are dangerous. Obviously this 400 Solid hit the heart hard enough, exited, and did indeed kill this buffalo dead as hell, and no big running issue...... no trailing, and just as damn dead as if he had been hit with a more mighty 458 and 500 gr bullet at 3000 fps........ Remember, 25 yard run, dead...... I have shot and seen buffalo run and play much further when shot with various 416s and even 458s.... and so forth........... So a 25 yard run with a heart shot buffalo is rather common........

This same bullet has enough penetration for Elephant and Hippo as well....... No, I would not make it my first choice, but that does not mean it is not capable........ Remember 45/70 for Dangerous Game?..............

Somewhere back on this thread, I was charged by an insane Bleesbok..... I had to put him down at about 10 steps as he was coming dead straight to us.......... Dangerous Game? Well, I can tell you without any doubt, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a insane Bleebok determined to roll me over....... My Guide gun in 45/70 put a stop to that episode decisively.........

There are times that on this Forum I refer to it as the 375 Worship Forum.......... I would not give you 50 cents for every 375 anything ever made...... I would not take it to the field for rats, much less anything else. If you asked 375 for Dangerous Game? There would be 100s of replies that 375 is the best thing God ever sent to man for DG and and and and........ And I would tell you the damn thing ain't worth a crap for large wharf rats, you better get a bigger gun, wharf rats are scary, and I am sure they would be classified dangerous game, and 375 just ain't up to the mission.

Energy? WTH is that about, you can probably run a .224 caliber bullet fast enough to get more energy than a 458 caliber bullet at 2400 fps and what does that mean exactly? I tell you what it means......> NOTHING.................A fancy number someone makes up to do try and sell AMMO..... The bullet does the killing...........

Well, this is a fun thread......... I like my 45/70s, I like my larger 50 B&M Alaskan, .500 caliber bullets in a lever gun....... I have shot hippo and buffalo with that....... big success too............ Dead hippo, dead buffalo........ but it also has some of the same limitations, it overcomes some of those with caliber, and of course Proper Bullet Design............ I can't emphasize this enough PROPER BULLET DESIGN for the mission intended and understanding the limitations of all your rifles, cartridges.........

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

This thread is a hoot....... lots of fun to be honest..........

The title of this thread is;

45/70 for Dangerous Game?
It does not ask or state this: Is the 45/70 a good stopping cartridge for Dangerous Game? Should 45/70 be the New King of Dangerous Game Cartridges? Does the 45/70 have enough energy for Dangerous Game? And and and and, Blah blah blah.................

Now, as I read this 45/70 for Dangerous Game?........ I see it more as a question, "Can the 45/70 be used for Dangerous Game?"....... That is how I interpret the Title of the thread............

Define Dangerous Game; I see a hell of a lot of "Buffalo" here....... Well, Dangerous Game can also include the big bears in Alaska or even little bears for that matter, both are known to dine on various folks in the wild. Now we have known for a 100 years that 45/70s have been used with incredible success in Alaska for "Dangerous Game", if indeed you consider Bears dangerous. I think I would, they have teeth and big claws, very strong, and do on occasion eat various sorts of people. Moose can be extremely dangerous as well, we have all seen the videos of insane moose attacking people, adn a damn moose is BIG. 45/70s have been used a long time on Moose, I shot the only moose I ever shot with a 45/70 myself back in 2001 I believe.

Dangerous Game? Well, leopard are damn dangerous if you screw around with one. Not very big, 120-140 lbs or so..... I think 45/70 would do just fine on those. Lion? Yeah, I know the better expanding bullets and some of the Raptors, North Fork Expanding CPS, and I would look damn hard at the Lehigh Extremes too....... all these would hammer lions, bears and turn leopard inside out...........

Yes, of course Buffalo, Elephant and Hippo. And this is where 45/70, even fans of 45/70s and rifles they come in, have to question seriously. I know for a fact, what I would do with a cartridge like 45/70,

Sometimes we don't always agree on many things, sometimes we do, but in the case of 45/70 and other low pressure, lower velocity cartridges, then a Solid is the best bet if you start to stretch capabilities of the Cartridge and Rifle. Not so many years ago My friend, had a friend, lived 2000 miles, and he wanted to hunt buffalo with 45/70 Guide Gun..... End of story. My friend asked that I help in this endeavor. This fellow was not really a shooter, just a common fellow. My task was to choose a load and bullet combination that would allow him to be successful. After much consideration, I decided to keep things as simple as possible, so I loaded the 400 gr CEB Lever Solids at 1850 fps. I know the penetration is there for this endeavor. Sent him his ammo, and off he goes....... OK.... One round about 30 yards, dead through the heart, exits far side, buffalo runs 25 yards and falls over Stone Cold Dead. So just how dead do you want him to be? Oh but this is not a stopping round, say they...... Well, They, the question and the thread does not say crap about Stopping Cartridge........... 45/70 for Dangerous Game? Obviously buffalo are dangerous. Obviously this 400 Solid hit the heart hard enough, exited, and did indeed kill this buffalo dead as hell, and no big running issue...... no trailing, and just as damn dead as if he had been hit with a more mighty 458 and 500 gr bullet at 3000 fps........ Remember, 25 yard run, dead...... I have shot and seen buffalo run and play much further when shot with various 416s and even 458s.... and so forth........... So a 25 yard run with a heart shot buffalo is rather common........

This same bullet has enough penetration for Elephant and Hippo as well....... No, I would not make it my first choice, but that does not mean it is not capable........ Remember 45/70 for Dangerous Game?..............

Somewhere back on this thread, I was charged by an insane Bleesbok..... I had to put him down at about 10 steps as he was coming dead straight to us.......... Dangerous Game? Well, I can tell you without any doubt, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a insane Bleebok determined to roll me over....... My Guide gun in 45/70 put a stop to that episode decisively.........

There are times that on this Forum I refer to it as the 375 Worship Forum.......... I would not give you 50 cents for every 375 anything ever made...... I would not take it to the field for rats, much less anything else. If you asked 375 for Dangerous Game? There would be 100s of replies that 375 is the best thing God ever sent to man for DG and and and and........ And I would tell you the damn thing ain't worth a crap for large wharf rats, you better get a bigger gun, wharf rats are scary, and I am sure they would be classified dangerous game, and 375 just ain't up to the mission.

Energy? WTH is that about, you can probably run a .224 caliber bullet fast enough to get more energy than a 458 caliber bullet at 2400 fps and what does that mean exactly? I tell you what it means......> NOTHING.................A fancy number someone makes up to do try and sell AMMO..... The bullet does the killing...........

Well, this is a fun thread......... I like my 45/70s, I like my larger 50 B&M Alaskan, .500 caliber bullets in a lever gun....... I have shot hippo and buffalo with that....... big success too............ Dead hippo, dead buffalo........ but it also has some of the same limitations, it overcomes some of those with caliber, and of course Proper Bullet Design............ I can't emphasize this enough PROPER BULLET DESIGN for the mission intended and understanding the limitations of all your rifles, cartridges.........

Michael, I so enjoyed your post. I have read it 3 times so far, it brings a smile to my face. If I was a client instead of a PH, I would still be shooting a stopping rifle, after all you never know when you might run into one of those wharf rats.

Lon

 

[hoytcanon]

This thread is a laugh... so much so, that I just picked up a box of 480 DGX, just to see what my .450 Marlin Bolt Action Ruger can realistically do with that bullet... this rifle was built on a Long Action, so I can seat the bullets out as far as possible with this bullet. I have no intention of using it on DG, this rifle is solely a black bear rifle and more for guiding than hunting, although I have shot a couple bears with it. I may try a 480 DGX on a bear this spring or possibly hand it off to a client to use... although it is far too tough a bullet to be ideal. I will post the chrono results once I get to the range.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I’m like Michael, this thread is a hoot. Never been to Africa except in books, but I live & hunt in dangerous game areas. Most of the area I hunt & enjoy off season is grizzly country. You’ll have to talk long & hard to convince me they aren’t dangerous. Though not officially a game animal here, they are very dangerous. I usually have my .45-70 handy.
thanks all.

 

[hoytcanon]

I’m like Michael, this thread is a hoot. Never been to Africa except in books, but I live & hunt in dangerous game areas. Most of the area I hunt & enjoy off season is grizzly country. You’ll have to talk long & hard to convince me they aren’t dangerous. Though not officially a game animal here, they are very dangerous. I usually have my .45-70 handy.
thanks all.

I carry my .350 Rem Mag with 250 Partitions loaded to the hilt when guiding for grizzlies... a little more impact speed is a good thing.

 

[Rafiki]

There are times that on this Forum I refer to it as the 375 Worship Forum.......... I would not give you 50 cents for every 375 anything ever made...... I would not take it to the field for rats, much less anything else. If you asked 375 for Dangerous Game? There would be 100s of replies that 375 is the best thing God ever sent to man for DG and and and and........ And I would tell you the damn thing ain't worth a crap for large wharf rats, you better get a bigger gun, wharf rats are scary, and I am sure they would be classified dangerous game, and 375 just ain't up to the mission.

Say it ain't so Michael, I just had a 375 H&H built! The plan is to hunt buffalo with it and I have to say from the start I wasn't so sure about the plan but (shrug). We've had enough discussions so you know I'm a believer in big bore. I'll also take the 500 Sharps tipped with suitable bullets at suitable velocity.

What gets me about this thread is exactly what you were said; you need to define your quarry, you call is mission. Equating an animal like a Cape Buffalo to other dangerous game like grizzly is simply wrong. Best advise is go with enough gun for the "mission". So here I am taking a 375 H&H and not taking my own advise.

 

[michael458]

Say it ain't so Michael, I just had a 375 H&H built! The plan is to hunt buffalo with it and I have to say from the start I wasn't so sure about the plan but

No, I won't say it ain't so, cause it damn sure is so......... So......

Well, from our previous discussions I have enjoyed our back and forth on proper subjects, such as various .500 and .510 calibers, we share a fondness of 50/90 and Ruger #1s..... and many other proper things......... I am going to miss you. Buffalo eat people that shoot 375s, I don't know this to be a pure fact, because I refuse to hunt with anyone that has a 375, and I damn sure don't own such, nor do I even allow anyone on my range with one of stupid things, but I heard such.

So here I am taking a 375 H&H and not taking my own advise.

Well, lets hope your PH has a real cartridge to back up with, you might get by...... if not, I will miss our conversations.... Maybe you can take one of your real rifles/cartridges for the PH to use?

HEH...........

Michael, I so enjoyed your post. I have read it 3 times so far, it brings a smile to my face. If I was a client instead of a PH, I would still be shooting a stopping rifle, after all you never know when you might run into one of those wharf rats.

HEH... Good, that was the intent. Sometimes these guys are way too serious, lighten up, enjoy. Normally I too carry a real gun and do all my own backing up, but even at times having a rifle/cartridge with limitations, I have still be good to go, and not required any backup ever.... Just shoot more, fill them full of holes until the problem is solved, its really rather simple actually. I did have a PH once that was carrying a 375 as backup, well, I had to back him up on one occasion, his mess was not getting the job done, I came running to aid, and I had a 50 B&M which sorted out the problem, he had fired 3 of those things already but this buffalo kept coming, ok, well it was down to less than a full run, but none the less the 50 put it in the dirt ....... I think that was the only time I can remember a PH having a 375......... I just remembered this, I have to revise my statement above, none the less, this buffalo wanted to eat us, because he was shooting a 375...... You see what I mean........ The rumor above must be true...............

 

[spike.t]

Lets just get real about this once and for all.......the 45-70 is just not proper form for Africa.......PERIOD!!!

Fk....and mine arrived just before Christmas.....oh well better hide it in back of a big dark closet........

 

[spike.t]

I still have yet to see anyone intelligently argue against this point.

Bit like properly loaded 458 win mag and comparing to 470 NE......

 

[Tundra Tiger]

You keep forgetting we dont hunt buffalo with solids. Also not leopard and lion. Only elephant....for which this peashooter is not suited ....very iffy for dg..

We don't? My PH advised solids. I found a load with solids, based on his recommendation. Both were one shot kills with solids. Admittedly, a very small sample size... but the solids worked extremely well. Not doubting you sir... just seeking clarification?

Edit: Michael shed some light on that.

Also, I have a couple of other DG species I want to hunt... with my .45-70... with the proper bullets, and accepting my limitations.

 

[spike.t]

No, I won't say it ain't so, cause it damn sure is so......... So......

Well, from our previous discussions I have enjoyed our back and forth on proper subjects, such as various .500 and .510 calibers, we share a fondness of 50/90 and Ruger #1s..... and many other proper things......... I am going to miss you. Buffalo eat people that shoot 375s, I don't know this to be a pure fact, because I refuse to hunt with anyone that has a 375, and I damn sure don't own such, nor do I even allow anyone on my range with one of stupid things, but I heard such.

Well, lets hope your PH has a real cartridge to back up with, you might get by...... if not, I will miss our conversations.... Maybe you can take one of your real rifles/cartridges for the PH to use?

HEH...........


HEH... Good, that was the intent. Sometimes these guys are way too serious, lighten up, enjoy. Normally I too carry a real gun and do all my own backing up, but even at times having a rifle/cartridge with limitations, I have still be good to go, and not required any backup ever.... Just shoot more, fill them full of holes until the problem is solved, its really rather simple actually. I did have a PH once that was carrying a 375 as backup, well, I had to back him up on one occasion, his mess was not getting the job done, I came running to aid, and I had a 50 B&M which sorted out the problem, he had fired 3 of those things already but this buffalo kept coming, ok, well it was down to less than a full run, but none the less the 50 put it in the dirt ....... I think that was the only time I can remember a PH having a 375......... I just remembered this, I have to revise my statement above, none the less, this buffalo wanted to eat us, because he was shooting a 375...... You see what I mean........ The rumor above must be true...............

Hey behave...its my job to insult the 375 .....