.375 vs .404 jeffry

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I will add my Zimbabwe 2 bond to the fray, (the govt. took all of real money away). I have watched buffalo hit with .450-400 & 400 J, there is a notiable difference thump, both make a buff dead if hit in the right place. The .404J is really a pleasant rifle to shoot and with the 300grn bullet. I believe it is pretty much a equal to the .375 H&H. My wife just passed her Zimbabwe PH shooting test, her rifle CZ. 404J shooting her last two shots (accuracy test) from the prone position (.300 grn.). She would much rather shoot her .404 J than her .375 H&H. There is a real difference when you hit a gong with a .404J. Not sure about all of the ballistic stuff, but even with my ears I know the difference between a "whack" & a "WHUUCK"!

 

[BeeMaa]

I will add my Zimbabwe 2 bond to the fray, (the govt. took all of real money away). I have watched buffalo hit with .450-400 & 400 J, there is a notiable difference thump, both make a buff dead if hit in the right place. The .404J is really a pleasant rifle to shoot and with the 300grn bullet. I believe it is pretty much a equal to the .375 H&H. My wife just passed her Zimbabwe PH shooting test, her rifle CZ. 404J shooting her last two shots (accuracy test) from the prone position (.300 grn.). She would much rather shoot her .404 J than her .375 H&H. There is a real difference when you hit a gong with a .404J. Not sure about all of the ballistic stuff, but even with my ears I know the difference between a "whack" & a "WHUUCK"!

I've said it before...
There is no replacement for displacement.

 

[Newboomer]

Eric,
I see you mentioned 375 Ruger. Have you compared 375HH to your 404? Might be a difference.
404 has a bigger frontal area and more weight. Kind of like comparing a nail hammer to a sledge. Bigger and heavier hits harder.

 

[AZDAVE]

When it comes to bigger bore I have always had more faith in the TKO ballistics than in just muzzle energy figures. Both will kill with a proper placed shot, I like a bigger hole in the vitals method.
375 Ruger 300gr at 2600 gives 4502ftlbs of muzzle energy, momentum of 111, and a TKO of 41
404 Jeff, 400gr at 2400 gives 5115ftlbs of muzzle energy, momentum of 137, and TKO of 58
458 Lott 500gr at 2300 gives 5872ftlbs of muzzle energy, momentum or 164, TKO of 75

 

[John458Lott]

I have shot Cape Buffalo with both a 375 H& H with 300gr Woodleighs and 404 Jeffery with 400gr Woodleigh. The 375 was going at 2550fps and the 404J 2150fps. They both killed Buffalo equally dead! However the 404 had a noticeable increase in "authority" or thump. Can't say one killed better than the other. The second Buffalo I shot with the 404J took 3 shots. The first shot was good right in shoulder but he turned so I put a solid in and then he was down I fired another soft to finish at about 10 feet.

I hear what is said about shot placement is everything and generally I agree but in hunting the fight in each animal is different. This buff was smaller than my first buff but the fight in him was bigger. He was truly battle scarred.

As to the 375 being less recoil yes on paper but at 2150 if you put it in the ballistic program the recoil velocity of a 404 is less. I actually find it more pleasant to shoot than my 375. Recoil is less sharp if I can put it that way. My rifles are within 1oz in weight of each other so it's a good back to back comparison.

IMHO both kill well but for Buffalo the 404 does seem to hit with more thump!

 

[Flipper Dude]

I rather like the 404 & consider it to be more in the class of a 458 than a comparison to the 375. However, for me, the main disadvantage of the 404 is the lack of cheap cup & core bullets. Practice and range time can be had at a reasonable cost with either the 375 or the 458, but just try and find a cheap bullet in .423". One feels bad getting range time at $2 a shot.

Gotta love these old threads. $2 a shot. Hilarious!

 

[cmk]

Gotta love these old threads. $2 a shot. Hilarious!

I guess that most reloading components have gotten more expensive in the last year or so, but... I can still find quality bullets (Northfork) just a little over USD 2 apiece. I don't think there ever were anyone making/selling jacketed 'practice' bullets a really low price.

If you want to do it cheap, casting your own is probably the way to go.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

With .375 Holland & Holland Magnum

With .404 Jeffery.

Heavier bullets from larger calibers tends to deliver comparatively more shock to the central nervous system of game (assuming that the velocity is proportionate to the bullet weight and the bullet has sufficient sectional density). They are also much more useful for body shots on big bull elephant. The heavier calibers punch larger wound cavities into the vital organs (i.e heart & lungs) of the elephant and accelerate the rate of blood loss… which in turn causes the game to hemorrhage quicker.

Take one bull tusker, for example. I put a full magazine (6 rounds) of 300Gr Remington round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids into his heart-lung region from a BRNO ZKK602 (in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). He actually managed to cross a stream and expired on the other side of the stream after 45 minutes or so (we found him after an hour). Postmortem showed that no less than 3 of the solids had gone through his heart. It didn’t seem to slow him down one bit.

Now, some might say “Modern .375 solids would have been far more effective on the elephant bull”. True, but in this case… those Remington FMJ solids had done exactly what they were supposed to do- Punching through the heart. A modern Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid couldn’t have done any better in this regard. But despite all that, they didn’t punch wound cavities into the animal’s vital organs which were large enough to cause him to hemorrhage from blood loss quickly.

I strongly believe that if I was armed with a .404 Jeffery on that day (loaded with modern 400Gr Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solids), then that bull elephant wouldn’t have been able to get away so far. Oh, and one more thing. I don’t like the old English .404 Jeffery loadings which achieved only 2150fps. I much prefer the Continental European .404 Jeffery loadings (as pioneered by the German firm, DWM) which achieved 2330fps. The ballistic performance and terminal effect on big game are much more apparent with the souped up high velocity loading.

 

[Andrew62]

The .404 has the cool factor. The .375 just gets it done. Can’t go wrong either way. Have fun!

^^^^^. Excellent analogy. ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Ray B]

the difference between the 375 & 404 can be visualized regarding the closed system recoil. Upon ignition of the powder the bullet starts through the bore followed by the burning powder. when the bullet was chambered the rifle would have had a balance point. then the bullet moved to the end of the barrel and the powder was more or less evenly distributed behind it. Basically the rifles balance point would be the same if a bullet was placed on the muzzle and a weight equal to the powder charge was placed at the midpoint of the barrel. Since the 404 has a heavier bullet, the shift in balance point would be further forward but since the rifle wants to balance the forces, it would like to have both balance points at the same point on the bench, So the rifle would move rearward until the balance point of the fired bullet was at the same location as the balance point of the unfired. So the 404 would have more rearward movement of the rifle- however, Since the bullet takes more time going from breech to muzzle, the rifle takes more time in moving to the new position. The time it takes is approximated using 1/2 the muzzle velocity (the average speed of the bullet going from 0 at the breech to its muzzle velocity. Since the 375 has a faster average speed, it takes less time getting to the muzzle and so the recoil of the rifle is quicker.

This is why a 404 may have a larger amount of recoil but the 375 has a quicker recoil which may be more noticeable.

 

[Rob404]

And thats why I enjoy shooting my 404 Jeffery over my 375HH.

 

[colorado]

Why stick with medium bores? Keep your 375 and get a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery?

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Why stick with medium bores? Keep your 375 and get a 505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery?

One good reason,not many people can handle the recoil and recovery with the very impressive .505 Gibbs or .500 Jeffery. If they can handle a .375 H&H they can handle a .404J. One mans opinion.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

One good reason,not many people can handle the recoil and recovery with the very impressive .505 Gibbs or .500 Jeffery. If they can handle a .375 H&H they can handle a .404J. One mans opinion.

Exactly. I had three major surgeries in left eye 2003-04 for retina detachments + multiple torn spots repaired in both eyes over the next ten years. I long ago received the green light to shoot trap league, hunt geese, etc. But no sense in looking for more trouble. I generally hunt most big game with my WWII 30-06 Springfield. However, I have also killed a couple of Cape buffalo with a borrowed 375. I have fired a total of five shots through that gun. One shot at the range each trip and one shot to kill first buff plus two bullets to take one the second trip. I have aspirations of shooting more but prefer a moderate felt recoil. Don't expect the 404 I'm building will be doing much range time. But I obviously don't need much range time ... and my bank account doesn't need it either.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Exactly. I had three major surgeries in left eye 2003-04 for retina detachments + multiple torn spots repaired in both eyes over the next ten years. I long ago received the green light to shoot trap league, hunt geese, etc. But no sense in looking for more trouble. I generally hunt most big game with my WWII 30-06 Springfield. However, I have also killed a couple of Cape buffalo with a borrowed 375. I have fired a total of five shots through that gun. One shot at the range each trip and one shot to kill first buff plus two bullets to take one the second trip. I have aspirations of shooting more but prefer a moderate felt recoil. Don't expect the 404 I'm building will be doing much range time. But I obviously don't need much range time ... and my bank account doesn't need it either.

Good for you. If I wanted to save money it would be in not so fancy wood and simple but strong sights. Any money left over would go into function. Possibly mercury recoil reducer. Your eyes are more important than some peoples ego.

 

[Rob404]

I got lucky a few years back and Bought a 50th Anniversary Cabelas 375HH stock off E-Bay at a decent price and put it in the closet. When I decided to build another Jeff I used the Cabelas, maybe not quite as fancy it looks ok to me

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The damage is done by impulse, the speed of the recoil. I have no eye problems yet and don't want any, and my 450/400 double is surprisingly well mannered, I feel it less than my 375 Ruger No1 used to dish out.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Good for you. If I wanted to save money it would be in not so fancy wood and simple but strong sights. Any money left over would go into function. Possibly mercury recoil reducer. Your eyes are more important than some peoples ego.

Just picked up the stock for this build. A plain Jane with strong straight grain walnut, forward lug installed, no finish, no checkering, no pad. Little over a hundred bucks US. The bottom metal is on the way - $500. Barrel should be done any day - $400. Timney trigger, safety kit, and sights just arrived and waiting to be picked up at post office. I bought used front and rear sights off a 1990s Win Model 70 Safari Express - $120. Traded a box of Winchester commemorative shotgun shells for a pair of Williams "Fire Sight" front sight blades, one for each rifle. Warne QD rings yet to be ordered when I can determine proper height (after the action is in the stock). When the build is finished, the 404 Jeff will be almost identical to my 30-06 Springfield except the 404 will be wearing the Springfield's 40 year-old retired Weaver K3 scope.

 

[colorado]

The damage is done by impulse, the speed of the recoil. I have no eye problems yet and don't want any, and my 450/400 double is surprisingly well mannered, I feel it less than my 375 Ruger No1 used to dish out.

I believe Ruger No. 1s as pretty as they are, are notorious for their brutal recoil. We (my sons and I ) have a 7.5 lb with scope 375 Weatherby which also shoots 375 H&H factory, a 9 lb Model 70 Classic in 416 Rem and a 11 lb CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. The recoil is as you would expect it increasing from 375 H&H > 375 Weatherby > 416 Rem > 500 Jeffery (a big step up).

 

[HWL]

However, for me, the main disadvantage of the 404 is the lack of cheap cup & core bullets. Practice and range time can be had at a reasonable cost with either the 375 or the 458, but just try and find a cheap bullet in .423". One feels bad getting range time at $2 a shot.

You easily can make it from .430 dia. Sierra 300 gr. soft point.
Just swadge it down to .423 dia.
Reloading data from Quick Load.

HWL