1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5x54, Questions

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Dean Macdonald, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    the picture of the rotary magazine from the rear poses some questions. (post no 43).
    are the cases in the mag fired? - the primers appear to have been struck by a firing pin.
    if fired, they appear flattened by high pressure or excess headspace.
    they also seem to be relatively large in diameter, fired or un fired.
    could they have had cases with no standard diameter primers at some time or other place?
    bruce.
     

  2. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    @ Brian Rothhammer ....about the ring in the magazine…

    I checked my little collection and found a 8x60 with ring, built in 1927, and 6,5x54 M-S without ring, built in 1938!

    What I think is possible, between 1924 and 1945, both type of magazines were manufactured, probably depending on caliber.

    Left is the 8x60 (1927) and Right is 6,5x54 MS (1938)

    But nontheless, you are right, the M1924 had a ring!!!

    DSC02483.JPG
     
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  3. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    If you mean this one;
    MS 3511_83_52-mannlicher-schoenauer-bolt.jpg

    This view (a drawing in cutaway, of course) is from the front, looking toward the rear, of cartridges being loaded from a stripper clip through the clip guides as one would with a Mauser. The bolt handle, if it were shown, would be to viewer's left. What may appear to be primers are the projectiles.
    Spent cartridges would be ejected as the bolt is pulled back, the magazine may also be cleared of cartridges by depressing the cartridge release button alongside and to the right of the magazine well. When ejected, the cartridges would fly out to viewer's upper left (with clip removed, of course).
    MS magazine unload.png

    Here, from the 1939 Stoeger, is a similar drawing of the magazine loaded and with clip removed, again viewed from the muzzle end.
    ST39 400dpi 51 Mannlicher Schoenauer 2 001 (8).jpg

    Here is a similar drawing of a 'postwar MS, showing magazine from front and from rear:
    MS Features (2).jpg
     
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  4. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    I didn't think Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) would be mistaken on this.

    That 8x60 would be what is generally referred to as a M1925, I believe. Is the receiver ring marked 8X60 in place of M---- ? Herr Eichendorff indicated that M1925 had the ring.

    This is so much of what makes sites like these valuable, the exchange of knowledge. With the Mannlicher Schönauer, it seems one can never stop learning!
     

  5. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    thank you brian.
    bruce.
     
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  6. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    The receiver ring is marked 8x60,......but the rifle is a 8x60S.

    It has a something strange history.

    The former owner of this rifle was Hugo Adolf Bernatzik, you can google….

    He was a scientist, ethnologist, photographer, writer, hunter, world traveler and Nazi, all together a quite unfortunate combination.

    I bought the rifle from his inheritors, togehter with a bunch of pre WW2 8x60S cartridges!

    Because the rifle has factory stamped marks of .318 dia and .323 dia on the barrel, it was checked at the proof house of Munich.

    It definitely is a 8x60S.

    DSC02484.JPG

    HWL
     
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  7. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    Your 8X60 is quite lovely.

    The item of particular interest to me, from this discourse, is that your M1924 magazine does not have the 'ring'.

    What is the proof date of your M1924, and has it a low serial number?

    From what I have read, the M1924 were originally produced for import to the United States to tap such market with an MS chambered for the .30-'06 cartridge and that the original order of 1000 did not sell well resulting in unsold 'Sequoias' being returned to Steyr where many were rebored and rebarreled to accept other cartridges. Some sources, however, dispute this.

    MS Sequoia Ad.jpg
    Also Steyr-Mannlicher Schoenauer doubles and big game rifles... Sole North American Factory Agents for Steyr-Mannlicher Schoenauer lines.

    To accommodate the .30-'06 required a longer magazine which would result in design modification and retooling. The longer magazine thus created allowed for flexibility with 'custom' chamberings such as those offered in the 1939 Stoeger catalog as 'High Velocity'.

    I'm taking a guess but it stands to reason that with such reconfiguration, and coinciding with the change of the bolt release from round to rectangular, that it would have been the time to modify the Schönauer magazine to include the 'ring', particularly as the 'M1925' were made in several different calibers.


    What is the proof date of your 'ringless' M1924?
    Is it a low serial number? Lower than the Sequoia range?

    Perhaps it would be worthwhile to survey owners of M1924 and 'M1925', or 'High Velocity' MS of pre WW2 manufacture to see if their magazines are with or without the ring?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
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  8. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    The M1903, M1905, M1908 and M1910 were still being manufactured during that period as evidenced by your 'built in 1938' example, which is interesting in itself (Is it Austrian or German proofed and / or stamped?).

    The change of magazine design, I suspect, would have been one of model rather than of caliber. There would have been no reason to reconfigure magazines intended for the MS proprietary cartridges of 6.5x54 (M1903), 9x56 (M1905), 8x56 (M1908) or 9.5x57 (M1910), as they worked flawlessly when fed with DWM , Kynoch, or other ammunition of the proper specification.

    I may have misunderstood your previous post. Do you have an M1924 (.30-'06) without the guide ring?
     

  9. Brian Rothhammer

    Brian Rothhammer AH Senior Member

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    Though the drawing showed projectiles viewed head on rather than primers, here's something for you from the 1939 Stoeger catalog:
    ST39 400dpi 299 Berdan Primers, Loading DWM 001 (3).jpg

    ST39 400dpi 275 MS DWM Cartridges 001 (2).jpg
     

  10. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I do not have a M1924 in .30-06, but a M1952.

    The 8x60(S) is from 1927.

    The 6,5mm is "Made in Germany" stamped…. DSC02494.JPG DSC02495.JPG
     
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