Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89 vs. Blaser S2

Opposite Pole said:

Come on, show us more

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Here we are:

Those are some beautiful rifles!! Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Philip Glass said:

yhc,
...
I recently took it to JJ Perdue, a top gunsmith, and had it fitted for a Kahles red dot sight. I will post a report soon on this new development.
...

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Actually, Heym comes from the factory with the ability to add red dots (RMR or Docter), all you need is to purchase the base for it from them for the red dot of your choice. No gunsmith trip needed.

Philip Glass said:

You failed to mention that the K gun also has the anti doubling feature. A big selling point for me. I’ve heard many stories of Heym doubling but maybe they were older models.
Philip

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Interesting, Heym does have the intersecting sears to prevent doubling. I don't think others mentioned here do.

Overall, I can't think of a feature I want that the Heyms do not have. The automatic safety on/decock feature that some rifles have when action is opened is actually a deal breaker for me.

Now, I am not familiar enough with all the double rifles to be able to make a call on the best resale value.

spike.t said:

VC round body...

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I know nothing about the VC round body. Went to their web site and it is awful (at least English side) with no information on their double rifles with the exception of a picture on the last page of their catalog.

Can you tell me about them?

Tanks said:

I know nothing about the VC round body. Went to their web site and it is awful (at least English side) with no information on their double rifles with the exception of a picture on the last page of their catalog.

Can you tell me about them?

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Their website sucks. I’ve handled their 577DR once, it was a custom order southpaw stock which did not fit me at all - I’m right handed and much taller then the owner so this is not a criticism. It fit him well. Other than the stock been unusable for me the rifle felt solid and was rather handsome. It was nicely balanced but rather heavy as you’d expect given the chambering.

yhc said:

One Day, Would you mind sharing your thoughts for opting to have the single leaf rear sight?
Regards,

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Certainly

Single leaf rear sight...

Like many others, I love their romantic aesthetics, but I always found folding leaves rear sights quite "optimistic" on dangerous game caliber rifles (double or bolt) for five reasons.

1) I am not entirely convinced (wink, wink) that cartridges like the .470 NE or .500 NE were designed with long range potential in mind. 200 or even 300 yards leaves on classic British doubles in .450, .470, .500 etc.? Really?

2) But, let us pretend for a moment. This gets us to point #2. Modern world (hmm... I did not say "better" world) shooters raised on a 5-25x variable scopes diet, engaging at 200 to 300 yards with iron sights? Really?

3) Oh, and by the way, we are talking dangerous game "stopper" calibers. So, here comes point #3. 200 or 300 yards shooting at dangerous game? Really?

4) And here comes the cherry on the cake. I will happily bet you about any amount of money you wish that NONE (yep, it is in upper cases) of the folding leaves on any modern production rifle are actually sighted (i.e. filed down to proper height) so that they actually allow hitting the intended point of aim at the stated distance. Never mind that most of them are not even labelled for which distance they are supposedly intended.

5) As to folding leaves graduated in 25 yards increments, even assuming they are actually sighted, I am not entirely sure that folks will think of and take the time to unfold the 75 yards leaf as the buff runs away from the 50 yards shot...

Moral of the story: in so many words, modern multiple folding leaves rear sights are purely decorative.

Solid leaf rear sight...

Yes, they look cool, but I personally fail to see what advantage the "see through" skeleton rear sights provide.

If anything, I can plainly see what disadvantage they provide: a potentially confusing sight picture for a fast shoot. Seeing the front bead through the rear sight is not going to do anyone any good. The only place where that front bead serves any life serving purpose in a self-defense shot, is when it is nested inside the "V" of the rear sight...

Blued receiver...

Since we are at it, I might as well address this one...

To begin with, I am not a fan of flashy rifles, but truly: to each their own.

What really convinced me is that I saw one used Krieghoff Big Five for sale some years ago with nickel plating flaking off, and it was ugly. Undoubtedly the rifle was exposed to harsh conditions ... but in my mind rifles should be capable of surviving those. This, by the way, is why I do not spend vast amounts of money on rust bluing and hand rubbed linseed oil finished 5 stars French walnut stock anymore. Watching my $xx,xxx bespoke Griffin & Howe rifle rust blue turn to rust, and French walnut stock turn to a gray twisted plank over the course of a two week non-stop rain hunt in a Newfoundland moose fly camp cured me of that...

I had my period of "safe Queen" rifles, but - right, wrong or indifferent - I am not on this wagon anymore. I bought my K gun for hunting, and hunting only, and I selected the options which, in my mind, make it the most effective hunting rifle.

Truth be told, I would instantly trade my blued steel / walnut .470 NE K gun for a .470 K gun in stainless steel with non-glare black ferritic nitrocarburized finish and kevlar stock. How is that for a shocker !?!?!?

But certainly others can make different choices. To each their own

One Day... said:

Watching my $xx,xxx bespoke Griffin & Howe rifle rust blue turn to rust, and French walnut stock turn to a gray twisted plank over the course of a two week non-stop rain hunt in a Newfoundland moose fly camp cured me of that...

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OUCH!!!

Thanks for this very thorough reply.

Regards,

One Day... said:

Certainly

Single leaf rear sight...

Like many others, I love their romantic aesthetics, but I always found folding leaves rear sights quite "optimistic" on dangerous game caliber rifles (double or bolt) for five reasons.

1) I am not entirely convinced (wink, wink) that cartridges like the .470 NE or .500 NE were designed with long range potential in mind. 200 or even 300 yards leaves on classic British doubles in .450, .470, .500 etc.? Really?

2) But, let us pretend for a moment. This gets us to point #2. Modern world (hmm... I did not say "better" world) shooters raised on a 5-25x variable scopes diet, engaging at 200 to 300 yards with iron sights? Really?

3) Oh, and by the way, we are talking dangerous game "stopper" calibers. So, here comes point #3. 200 or 300 yards shooting at dangerous game? Really?

4) And here comes the cherry on the cake. I will happily bet you about any amount of money you wish that NONE (yep, it is in upper cases) of the folding leaves on any modern production rifle are actually sighted (i.e. filed down to proper height) so that they actually allow hitting the intended point of aim at the stated distance. Never mind that most of them are not even labelled for which distance they are supposedly intended.

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Here’s my take on it. I like the look of folding leaf sights. And yes, mine are in fact correctly sighted in for distances engraved on them that is 50, 75 and 100m ;-). They aren’t useless though. I think for practical use a big bore rifle can use one folding leaf in addition to standing shallow V. Combine the V with large popup bead (I believe they are called moon sights) and you have a very fast if inaccurate set of sights, great for fast shooting at a large target, say side on buffalo. Fold over the moonsight and pop the leaf up and you have yourself an accurate set of target sights. I’ve tried to take a photo of it with my phone but it doesn’t really show. The main difference is between the V and the notch. It doesn’t look like much, but is a target vs combat sight difference.

One Day... said:

Actually Philip I did not fail to mention it because Krieghoff rifles do not have an "anti-doubling feature" otherwise technically known as "intercepting sears." Heym rifles do, Krieghoff or Blaser rifles do not.

PS: to be 100% sure, I just called Krieghoff International in Ottsville, PA to verify

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My dealer took mine apart and showed me exactly how it works. It does have it but I am not a gunsmith to explain the engineering.
Philip

Tanks said:

I know nothing about the VC round body. Went to their web site and it is awful (at least English side) with no information on their double rifles with the exception of a picture on the last page of their catalog.

Can you tell me about them?

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More of English classic style... similar to how heym went with the 89b....have handled a few in various calibres from 9.3x74r to .577 NE at sci in different years and i really liked the feel and balance of them......if I was going to get a new double it would be from them....as unfortunately I am double free at the moment due to painful lawyers bills......

Philip Glass said:

My dealer took mine apart and showed me exactly how it works. It does have it but I am not a gunsmith to explain the engineering.
Philip

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Dang! You are right!

That is fascinating Phil, I stand corrected, and it will not improve my relationship with clueless salesmen...

When I bought my Classic Big Five, and when I called Krieghoff yesterday to verify, I asked the question using the words "intercepting sears" and the answer was "no." You would think that double rifles salesmen would know what "intercepting sears" do and would answer, "no, they do not have intercepting sears, but they do have our own Krieghoff anti-doubling device" or something to that effect, right? Wrong! They always answered "no, they do not have intercepting sears." End of discussion.... Hence my conclusion that the K gun did not have a mechanism to prevent mechanical failure-caused doubling (shooters strumming the two triggers under recoil is different).

But your reply intrigued me because I know that you are reliable, so after two hours of research today on both US and German sources, I finally discovered this 2019 Krieghoff price list that lists among the "basic specifications" an "UAS anti-doubling device." Now, I certainly do not know how this UAS (Universal-Abzug-System or universal trigger system) "anti-doubling device" works, and it likely does not involve intercepting sears, but I do not think that there is any doubt about the net outcome: "anti-doubling." Why would they not list this feature prominently among the "Standard Features" of the Classic Big Five on their website is beyond me...

Do you recall what is actually blocked in their "anti-doubling device?" It could be the triggers, the hammers, the firing pins, etc.

Thank you for your reply, I apologize for being wrong, and this increases even more my liking of my Classic Big Five...
Pascal

BTW, if any left handers want an S2, saw one on Gunbroker for $18.5K
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/861673944

VC will make it with custom fit stock, intercepting sears, extract or eject and a few other custom features as you prefer as well as just about all the NE calibers available...or multiple barrel sets...

Hi,
We tried a 375 H&H double rifle (second hand) without scope.
Cartridges different from those of the factory setting.
It shoot 1,5" at 55 yards.
Holes one above the other in the same axis. Left shoot under right shoot.

Why do you think please ?

Rule of thumb is faster to bring the holes closer and slower for moving them apart longitudinally. So, I'd say you need a little less velocity for your rounds. I'd try a grain of powder less then see.

Thank you for the advice but I do not charge.

But what do you think of this shooting tests? Do you think accuracy of the rifle is good ... or bad?

If I'll buy it, I could try other industrial cartridges with differtent loads and bullets.

Tanks said:

Rule of thumb is faster to bring the holes closer and slower for moving them apart longitudinally. So, I'd say you need a little less velocity for your rounds. I'd try a grain of powder less then see.

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Guépard said:

Thank you for the advice but I do not charge.

But what do you think of this shooting tests? Do you think accuracy of the rifle is good ... or bad?

If I'll buy it, I could try other industrial cartridges with differtent loads and bullets.

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1.5" at 55 yards?!? I wouldn't change a thing. Nothing. Nada. You are good to go! Most doubles leave the factory these days with, if one is lucky, a three-inch LxR on the test target at fifty yards.

Buy a hundred rounds of that particular load and lot number and don't look back. I also would fire it at seventy and 100 yards so you know what each barrel does at those ranges. A seventy yard shot is common on buffalo, and getting a second bullet into something quickly as he runs off (the hundred yard opportunity) can also be critical. Sounds like you have a keeper on your hands.

Agreed in all respects!

We currently have a tie between Krieghoff and Heym at 21:21!! We need a tie breaker folks...cast your vote if you haven't done so already.

Regards,

yhc

I don't have a dog in this fight but I love the conversation and pics.