Are We Our Own Worst Enemy?

I posted this on Facebook recently, after getting sick and tired of all the bickering about whats right and what not... Thought you guys may also weigh in on my opinion.


Recently, a lot of flack has been slung back and forth between different countries’ outfitters, PH’s and even hunting clients. Our Namibian guys try and downplay the South African outfitters smaller (on average) game farms, their hunting of captive bred lions, and breeding of game animals for larger horn size or different colours. The South Africans normally retaliate with the fact that a lot of bred game are sold across the border to Namibia, that Namibia is a dry country thus the farms have to be bigger, and recently they even try to make the suggested ethics training of Namibia’s MET off as a point against Namibian hunting.

As a Namibian with interests in both countries, my two cents:
All this does, is create divide amongst like minded people. And like it or not, we are playing right into the hands of the anti-hunting brigade by doing this. I understand that everyone is under pressure to try and promote their business, and one of the most effective ways is to distinguish it from your competitors. But, this should never be done by slandering someone else’s way of doing business.
Just remember, the anti-hunting people really does not care HOW we hunt wild game, they are only concerned by the fact that we actually kill it, and by the perception that we may even enjoy it. So, by criticising someone else’s way of earning a living, we are playing right into their hands. Who are we to decide who should enjoy hunting, and how?
I personally have no problem with outfitters that breed game, restock game, hunt captive bred animals, hunt on smaller farms, etc. Whatever you need to do to make your piece of land profitable and accessible for hunting, hell, do it! (As long as it’s within the law.) There is a market for all these ways of hunting, and all these animals, so feed the market, get more land under conservation, and most of all, stand together to form a united front against the ant hunting onslaught.

Are there problems? Hell, YES! But I think most of these can be traced to simple lying to clients. The moment you have to revert to lying to sell your product (a hunting safari), you are part of the problem, just like the individuals that revert to name calling and trying to badmouth another person’s way of earning a living.
The moment you sell your dropped off game, as “born on the property”, the moment you start calling a game farm “a concession”, the moment you start calling lions on a 5000 acre area “free roaming”, the moment you start restocking your 1000 acre property just before the next hunters arrive, the moment you start telling clients that to shoot a captive bred lion is “better” than a wild lion, the moment you tell a client that a buffalo bull out of a breeding project is “the same thing” as hunting a truly wild animal, the moment you have to revert to shooting drugged animals, you are part of our problem. Please note, all above are examples of lies being told to clients.

Please note, I am not necessarily against the practice of captive bred lion hunting, or hunting on smaller properties, or shooting bred up animals. I am just against the lying associated with this.If the client KNOWS this, and he or she has no problem with it, and it is a legal activity, by all means you have my blessing. It may not be how I choose to hunt, but I will not criticize you for doing it. (I personally have an issue with the color variants though, but that's a personal thing. I would still not criticize anyone doing it if this means more land is conserved for game. We should just guard against when it is considered game and when it becomes livestock... not that Brahman bulls that became wild are not fun to hunt...),
So please, let’s stop BS clients, stop fighting amongst ourselves, and rather help each other against the onslaught.

Well said Mr. Karl.... I have to agree.

Thanks for posting. This is a very important discussion because if we don't define the activity someone else will!

I personally struggle with my idea of hunting. For me being in the right environment is about 90% of the experience I call 'hunting'. I pay for the right to access those areas. So there are activities or locations that I personally do not view as 'my kind of hunting'. But, your statement that

Ndumo Hunting Safaris said:

We should just guard against when it is considered game and when it becomes livestock...

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is probably as close to a useful working definition as I have seen. I do believe we have to be critical of activities that masquerade as hunting so we can clearly show what is hunting. But, you are correct that throwing mud at a valid form of hunting helps only the antis.

I don’t think any of us should throw any form of negetivity at form or tactics or methods of hunting including fenced game ,etc. here in the states the bow hunters and rifle hunters bicker and some states can’t even rifle hunt. It’s all ridiculous and we ARE killing hunting ourselves! From lowering limits on animals for no reason to restricting access to some public lands. We all better get our act together because in the long term it will be bad if we stay the course! I’m getting prepared for what it may become by purchasing land so that I have it Incase my family needs it to survive. Just wish my family had a lot of land because then I could spend my money on ....Africa!

Yep.

Thank you for posting. I agree with your fundamental point - that people in the hunting industry should stick together to promote the industry and the sport. You give examples of people not doing this, whether it be by lying to hunters or being critical of the practices of others. Again, all good.

We assume that there is a client for each type of hunting out there - whether it be bred game, brought in game, free ranging game, etc. And while that may be right in theory, is it right in practice? That is, are there enough clients for each type of hunting to ensure a viable industry for that type? And is the hunting industry being entirely honest with hunters, or do outfitters feel they must pretend to be something they are not in order to stay in business?

I ask this because after many (many) hunts in many different parts of Africa, I can truly say that I've never had a hunt I didn't enjoy. But in great part that's because I've come to understand the different types of hunts available, and to appreciate each type for what it has to offer. For example, last summer, I spent a very nice week at a beautiful property in the Karoo, with the sole aim of culling. My record was about 50 springbok in one day, but I also had a great time with multiple blesbok, fallow deer, etc. Was any of this hunting, at least as most hunters I know would think of it? Not a bit, and if it had been sold as such, I would have been very disappointed. But it was not, and the result was a great time was had by all.

Many outfitters who sell "olde Africa" type safaris in South Africa are really selling nothing of the kind. Now before you jump all over me, yes, some, even many, are. But a true hunting experience in my view requires that there be some reasonable uncertainty that you will even see the animal you're looking for in a short period of time, let alone find a mature specimen to take. I did not even see a kudu on my first hunt to Africa many years ago (10 days of hunting in Zimbabwe). It took me two hunts to get a leopard. It took me 12 days to get a bongo in the Cameroon jungle (where I took two animals in 14 days). It took me 6 days to get a shot at a mountain nyala in Ethiopia, and I never got the leopard (note that there you pay the trophy fee in advance and no refunds!). I'm not sure most hunters from North America would find those types of hunt acceptable, but I'm not sure (or maybe I'm not a good hunter?!).

Most hunters expect that they will be able to take at least one, more usually two, and sometimes even more, animals in a day in South Africa. That's not 'natural' - game densities in nature are rarely, if ever, that high. In the safaris of old, even with the game densities in East Africa, safaris lasted a month or more to get the game people were looking for. The Green Hills of Africa anyone? When was the last time you worked that hard for an animal in South Africa? There are hunts like that in South Africa - certain species can be hard to take - grysbok, suni, serval, caracal (without hounds), etc., come to mind, but these hunts aren't the norm.

The South African model seems to focus - by and large - more on the number of animals than on the experience. Namibia, at least in may experience (limited there, I admit), seems to offer fewer animals but a more traditional experience. Both have their place, it just depends on what people are looking for.

So that brings up the question: What do hunters expect when they book a hunt in South Africa? Trophies or an experience? If the latter, what type of experience?

The answer of course depends on the person, but it also depends on what is being sold. And I don't think that most outfitters in South Africa are selling the olde Africa experience. Which may be just fine, so long as the market is happy with that.

Karl so much truth to what you say. Anytime something is turn into a business you will have guys willing to throw others under the bus to gain some kind of advantage.

It is a slipper slope in so many ways. From how lions get sold in SA as cattle killers that came across the river and now must be hunted. To the over kill how fenced hunting is thrown under the bus as all the same.

I think now a days the biggest problem is some think nothing has changed for the better. Guys still bring up story's from 10 or more years ago on how things may have been done or heard done. Yes there is still bad apples around and will do what ever is needed to sell a hunt. But a lot of the bad apples have been pushed out or found out and gone or doing very little now.

To me Sa takes the must bashing but could be looked at as one of the biggest gains for us as hunters. Taken a country that had next to nothing left in game numbers to now one of highest numbers of game . The main problem is as we all know if it pays it stays and for that country that meant fences. More landowners with smaller areas then most countries and all want to keep what they brought back on there land. So the victory of bringing animal numbers back came with a price of sometimes smaller areas and fence. Also came with the need to add animals sometimes to vary the gene pool and bring animals that once may have been there and were shot out. So many good things to look at in the whole story.

I think what Namibia did better was landowners worked better together. Some of that was by watching what had happen in SA. Once the fence went up in SA no landowners wanted to take it down and maybe work with there neighbors to make bigger areas. Namibia had large ranches to start but then some Landowners teamed up to make the large conservancies. Less people more land and willing to work together equaled a different kind of hunting.

Now just like some in Sa made up story's to sell hunts some in Namibia do the same. From not telling people a lot of the impala, black wildebeest ,blesbuck and even blue wildebeest may be behind fence. In some areas maybe even the eland will be behind fence. Could be large 10,000 plus acre areas but fenced all the same.

You also see how they brought in animals like nyala , sable , red lechwe and yes even colored springbuck in some places. I am sure some in Namibia do not like this and may not do it but it is there now.

I think it has come to the point were more fence will be going up and it is just the way it will be. Hell there is even some place in Zambia that are fenced. The only way to hunt Botswana is behind fence and there is some great hunting there in large fenced areas.


I think as hunter we all need to get past the whole mine is better then your yours because of add any of the many reason one can use there. Like you said in your post Karl all hunting is under attack because any killing of any animal is looked as a bad thing to many. I think one fact many can not understand for some reason not sure why. All of the above have a place in hunting if we want to keep hunters numbers up. Fenced or unfenced all have a way of making hunting doable for most people and needed in my eyes.

Divide and conquer, the eventual losers easily forget they are willing participants.

Couldn’t agree more . I’ve been given false information multiple times in the last week by ph’s . straight up lies . I’m not sure if these outfits think we hunters , or new African hunters are naive or they’re just desperate to sell a hunt , and saying whatever to a potential client might want to hear. I’m frankly getting very discouraged with these outfits , starting to turn me off from the thought of hunting in Africa all together.

revturbo9967 said:

Couldn’t agree more . I’ve been given false information multiple times in the last week by ph’s . straight up lies . I’m not sure if these outfits think we hunters , or new African hunters are naive or they’re just desperate to sell a hunt , and saying whatever to a potential client might want to hear. I’m frankly getting very discouraged with these outfits , starting to turn me off from the thought of hunting in Africa all together.

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You must be talking to all the wrong ones. Plenty of good outfits on this site with outstanding references and proven records of providing great hunts. Pick a few and talk with them. You should be able to find one that suits your needs.

Hogpatrol said:

You must be talking to all the wrong ones. Plenty of good outfits on this site with outstanding references and proven records of providing great hunts. Pick a few and talk with them. You should be able to find one that suits your needs.

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I’ve spoken to more then one outfit on this site that have provided false information. Call it stretching he truth or lying. I’ve also spoken to a few hot heads who have some kind of complex and/or bad additude . I’m not saying every outfit I’ve spoken with has been like this, some very pleasant and nice to talk to, I’m just saying there are some scabs floating around and it makes things quite difficult when trying to find a place to hunt .

revturbo9967 said:

Couldn’t agree more . I’ve been given false information multiple times in the last week by ph’s . straight up lies . I’m not sure if these outfits think we hunters , or new African hunters are naive or they’re just desperate to sell a hunt , and saying whatever to a potential client might want to hear. I’m frankly getting very discouraged with these outfits , starting to turn me off from the thought of hunting in Africa all together.

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Really - I have been at this a while and can count on perhaps two fingers when I have to deal with either a liar or hothead. I have no doubt that most outfitters will focus on the best aspects of their operations - they are in a highly competitive business. A bit like you posing at the south end of that bear in your picture? Nice bear I am sure, but it does make him look larger right? But actually lying or having a combative attitude is a fairly rare attribute for folks engaged in a customer oriented business - at least in my experience. Anyway, I would urge you carefully review the hunting reports here and use that as an initial cut to engage with outfitters who have a proven track record.

Karl, interesting you note the new Namibian MET mandatory "ethics" course for license renewal and this being twisted negatively.
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...-the-re-registration-of-hunting-guides.42627/

Holding Professionals to a higher standard and requiring training is being ridiculed?
That is sad and obviously an example of exactly what your concern is.

Hey Karl I found you here:
captive bred lion ("hunting") goes beyond the ethics of individual hunters or the Breeders profit from it. It is the lighting rod the Anti-hunters used to ban all lion Hunting. I could give a rats ass what others do until it effects me. Selfish yup guilty as charged. All my life I had just one long term goal (Dream) to hunt a wild male lion on foot in the African Bush. Finally at the point in my long life where I just might scrape up the $$$ to do a traditional 21 day Lion Safari and....Now it's on an "Individual basis" if USF&W will approve it??? (reads have your personal law firm submit the request?) So for purely selfish reasons I'm for ending captive bred lion ("hunting") if it protects the opportunity to preserve Wild Lion Hunts.

Red Leg said:

Really - I have been at this a while and can count on perhaps two fingers when I have to deal with either a liar or hothead. I have no doubt that most outfitters will focus on the best aspects of their operations - they are in a highly competitive business. A bit like you posing at the south end of that bear in your picture? Nice bear I am sure, but it does make him look larger right? But actually lying or having a combative attitude is a fairly rare attribute for folks engaged in a customer oriented business - at least in my experience. Anyway, I would urge you carefully review the hunting reports here and use that as an initial cut to engage with outfitters who have a proven track record.

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I’m not looking to get into an argument over my expierences here . I have had some good expierences , and I’ve already stated that. But having more then one negative conversation with an outfit In a short amount of time is not something that makes me feel good about the experience at all.


And Actually, it’s a sow, and not big at all, maybe only 220lbs. That is where the animal died and that’s where I sat to take the picture , not to try and exaggerate it’s size . The only reason I actually have a picture of that bear is because it was taken with a 4 inch revolver.

Ndumo Hunting Safaris said:

............

Are there problems? Hell, YES! But I think most of these can be traced to simple lying to clients. The moment you have to revert to lying to sell your product (a hunting safari), you are part of the problem, just like the individuals that revert to name calling and trying to badmouth another person’s way of earning a living.
The moment you sell your dropped off game, as “born on the property”,
the moment you start calling a game farm “a concession”,
the moment you start calling lions on a 5000 acre area “free roaming”,
the moment you start restocking your 1000 acre property just before the next hunters arrive,
the moment you start telling clients that to shoot a captive bred lion is “better” than a wild lion,
the moment you tell a client that a buffalo bull out of a breeding project is “the same thing” as hunting a truly wild animal,
the moment you have to revert to shooting drugged animals,
you are part of our problem. Please note, all above are examples of lies being told to clients.

.................

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and plenty more problems are from clients lying to themselves and not looking at the story they are being told.
Education is the only way to manage the problem.

Managing Expectations and bringing it in line with the reality on the ground is the only way to be satisfied with your hunt.

Southern Africa was first settled by Europeans in 1652. Think about it.

Ndumo Hunting Safaris said:

I posted this on Facebook recently, after getting sick and tired of all the bickering about whats right and what not... Thought you guys may also weigh in on my opinion.


Recently, a lot of flack has been slung back and forth between different countries’ outfitters, PH’s and even hunting clients. Our Namibian guys try and downplay the South African outfitters smaller (on average) game farms, their hunting of captive bred lions, and breeding of game animals for larger horn size or different colours. The South Africans normally retaliate with the fact that a lot of bred game are sold across the border to Namibia, that Namibia is a dry country thus the farms have to be bigger, and recently they even try to make the suggested ethics training of Namibia’s MET off as a point against Namibian hunting.

As a Namibian with interests in both countries, my two cents:
All this does, is create divide amongst like minded people. And like it or not, we are playing right into the hands of the anti-hunting brigade by doing this. I understand that everyone is under pressure to try and promote their business, and one of the most effective ways is to distinguish it from your competitors. But, this should never be done by slandering someone else’s way of doing business.
Just remember, the anti-hunting people really does not care HOW we hunt wild game, they are only concerned by the fact that we actually kill it, and by the perception that we may even enjoy it. So, by criticising someone else’s way of earning a living, we are playing right into their hands. Who are we to decide who should enjoy hunting, and how?
I personally have no problem with outfitters that breed game, restock game, hunt captive bred animals, hunt on smaller farms, etc. Whatever you need to do to make your piece of land profitable and accessible for hunting, hell, do it! (As long as it’s within the law.) There is a market for all these ways of hunting, and all these animals, so feed the market, get more land under conservation, and most of all, stand together to form a united front against the ant hunting onslaught.

Are there problems? Hell, YES! But I think most of these can be traced to simple lying to clients. The moment you have to revert to lying to sell your product (a hunting safari), you are part of the problem, just like the individuals that revert to name calling and trying to badmouth another person’s way of earning a living.
The moment you sell your dropped off game, as “born on the property”, the moment you start calling a game farm “a concession”, the moment you start calling lions on a 5000 acre area “free roaming”, the moment you start restocking your 1000 acre property just before the next hunters arrive, the moment you start telling clients that to shoot a captive bred lion is “better” than a wild lion, the moment you tell a client that a buffalo bull out of a breeding project is “the same thing” as hunting a truly wild animal, the moment you have to revert to shooting drugged animals, you are part of our problem. Please note, all above are examples of lies being told to clients.

Please note, I am not necessarily against the practice of captive bred lion hunting, or hunting on smaller properties, or shooting bred up animals. I am just against the lying associated with this.If the client KNOWS this, and he or she has no problem with it, and it is a legal activity, by all means you have my blessing. It may not be how I choose to hunt, but I will not criticize you for doing it. (I personally have an issue with the color variants though, but that's a personal thing. I would still not criticize anyone doing it if this means more land is conserved for game. We should just guard against when it is considered game and when it becomes livestock... not that Brahman bulls that became wild are not fun to hunt...),
So please, let’s stop BS clients, stop fighting amongst ourselves, and rather help each other against the onslaught.

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Good post Karl. I would disagree with you on just one point, I don't think this has been a recent issue. In my opinion it's been going on for years. My first DSC convention as a U.S. rep was in 2012. While repping for a RSA outfit, I have intentions of hunting other countries in southern Africa. It hasn't happened yet, but that's another story.

But with the intention of hunting other countries, I have taken the time starting in 2012 to stop by a number of outfitters from these other areas. One of these was at that first for me DSC in 2012. I was wearing my badge of course with the outfitters name on it. I wasn't greeted by this quite well known outfitter/PH with a hello, how are you? I was greeted with "Ahh a South African" which was followed by some derogatory remarks regarding RSA. I replied with something along the line of "Actually I'm American, I'm a rep for this company, but thank you for your time" and walked away dumbfounded.

And that wasn't the last time I've heard that sort of thing. I'm certain it goes the other way too at times. What's the point of doing so?

While I know there are exceptions, a great many foreign to Africa hunters get their start in RSA and I'd throw Namibia in there as well, on less expensive PG hunts. They may do one or two or more of these and then "graduate" if you will to DG hunting in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Zambia or Tanzania, etc. If they had never taken that first PG hunt in RSA/Namibia, likely they never would have gone to these other countries.

Does RSA have some disreputable outfitters? They have in the past and I'm sure they still do. Does Zim or Moz or other southern countries have some disreputable outfitters? Same answer.

We can choose to work together for the betterment of conservation, hunting and each other's businesses. Or we can choose a more destructive path and let the chips fall where they may. Personally I'd prefer we work together.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

While I know there are exceptions, a great many foreign to Africa hunters get their start in RSA and I'd throw Namibia in there as well, on less expensive PG hunts. They may do one or two or more of these and then "graduate" if you will to DG hunting in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Zambia or Tanzania, etc. If they had never taken that first PG hunt in RSA/Namibia, likely they never would have gone to these other countries.

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Well stated Phil. I believe RSA gets the bulk of the U.S. hunters mostly by word of mouth and honest salesmanship. I was recently at a gun club and ran in to a man I had not seen in a couple years who I had recommended RSA for his first safari. He did a hunt in RSA in '17 and told me that our previous conversation helped him decide to go to that country. Of course he had a fantastic time and was planning to return in '19.

Ndumo Hunting Safaris said:

I posted this on Facebook recently, after getting sick and tired of all the bickering about whats right and what not... Thought you guys may also weigh in on my opinion.


Recently, a lot of flack has been slung back and forth between different countries’ outfitters, PH’s and even hunting clients. Our Namibian guys try and downplay the South African outfitters smaller (on average) game farms, their hunting of captive bred lions, and breeding of game animals for larger horn size or different colours. The South Africans normally retaliate with the fact that a lot of bred game are sold across the border to Namibia, that Namibia is a dry country thus the farms have to be bigger, and recently they even try to make the suggested ethics training of Namibia’s MET off as a point against Namibian hunting.

As a Namibian with interests in both countries, my two cents:
All this does, is create divide amongst like minded people. And like it or not, we are playing right into the hands of the anti-hunting brigade by doing this. I understand that everyone is under pressure to try and promote their business, and one of the most effective ways is to distinguish it from your competitors. But, this should never be done by slandering someone else’s way of doing business.
Just remember, the anti-hunting people really does not care HOW we hunt wild game, they are only concerned by the fact that we actually kill it, and by the perception that we may even enjoy it. So, by criticising someone else’s way of earning a living, we are playing right into their hands. Who are we to decide who should enjoy hunting, and how?
I personally have no problem with outfitters that breed game, restock game, hunt captive bred animals, hunt on smaller farms, etc. Whatever you need to do to make your piece of land profitable and accessible for hunting, hell, do it! (As long as it’s within the law.) There is a market for all these ways of hunting, and all these animals, so feed the market, get more land under conservation, and most of all, stand together to form a united front against the ant hunting onslaught.

Are there problems? Hell, YES! But I think most of these can be traced to simple lying to clients. The moment you have to revert to lying to sell your product (a hunting safari), you are part of the problem, just like the individuals that revert to name calling and trying to badmouth another person’s way of earning a living.
The moment you sell your dropped off game, as “born on the property”, the moment you start calling a game farm “a concession”, the moment you start calling lions on a 5000 acre area “free roaming”, the moment you start restocking your 1000 acre property just before the next hunters arrive, the moment you start telling clients that to shoot a captive bred lion is “better” than a wild lion, the moment you tell a client that a buffalo bull out of a breeding project is “the same thing” as hunting a truly wild animal, the moment you have to revert to shooting drugged animals, you are part of our problem. Please note, all above are examples of lies being told to clients.

Please note, I am not necessarily against the practice of captive bred lion hunting, or hunting on smaller properties, or shooting bred up animals. I am just against the lying associated with this.If the client KNOWS this, and he or she has no problem with it, and it is a legal activity, by all means you have my blessing. It may not be how I choose to hunt, but I will not criticize you for doing it. (I personally have an issue with the color variants though, but that's a personal thing. I would still not criticize anyone doing it if this means more land is conserved for game. We should just guard against when it is considered game and when it becomes livestock... not that Brahman bulls that became wild are not fun to hunt...),
So please, let’s stop BS clients, stop fighting amongst ourselves, and rather help each other against the onslaught.

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justin wiles said:

I don’t think any of us should throw any form of negetivity at form or tactics or methods of hunting including fenced game ,etc. here in the states the bow hunters and rifle hunters bicker and some states can’t even rifle hunt. It’s all ridiculous and we ARE killing hunting ourselves! From lowering limits on animals for no reason to restricting access to some public lands. We all better get our act together because in the long term it will be bad if we stay the course!

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Hank2211 said:

Thank you for posting. I agree with your fundamental point - that people in the hunting industry should stick together to promote the industry and the sport. You give examples of people not doing this, whether it be by lying to hunters or being critical of the practices of others. Again, all good.

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Karl thank you for this GREAT post!

I personally can not quite understand why hunters are so divisive. I just ignore the antis they are not the problem. Hunters against hunters, outfitters against outfitters, associations against associations, this is the real problem. Lots of judgements about what is right or correct, lots of who or what is better, what kind of hunting is right or wrong. All of this is just not good for us as a community. If it is legal then you get to decide for yourself what is ok. To me it is very straight forward. I hunt the way I choose but I don't need to tell you what my personal code of ethics is because it only matters to me. I will not judge someone else for hunting the way they choose to as long as it is legal. We just need to stop this moral superiority, this attitude of I am a better man because I hunt this way...

Let the free market decide what kind of hunting should continue, as hunters we vote with our money. If you only want to hunt free range great! If you want to hunt on a smaller fenced property who am I to judge? If you believe that bow hunting is the only way to go, fine! If a bigger trophy is better for you, cool! You can hunt a deer that has a first name...whatever floats your boat! But hunters have an awful lot of judgement and I don't get it. If we want hunting to be here for future generations than we had better get on the same page and stop bashing each other.

Judgement is the poison that is killing us slowly. Like @PHOENIX PHIL said this has been going on for a while.

So here is the question, how do we come together? My answer is that we have to get off our high horses and adopt an attitude of acceptance amongst ourselves and realize that we all want and enjoy the same thing. I would really be interested to hear other people's opinions as to what you think we should do to mend our fractured community.

Not to be argumentative...but the free market is adept at setting price within the constraints of supply and demand..not morals!