Soooo you got a new President...

Howdy folks,
I haven't been around for quite a while so I hope you all don't mind me jumping in to the conversation. I didn't see any other hot button topics going on like religion or abortion so I figured it might as well be politics

On the topic of the so called "Ban on Muslims", it seems to me that anyone willing to be even a little objective can see that this is simply politics designed to divide and undermine by the left. Political Fodder and nothing more.

Regarding that border wall, I have a personal story to share with you. This is my families first hand experience. I seek no sympathy, that's not my motivation for sharing.

My daughter is married and has two children. She works as a waitress to help make ends meet. One night she was on her way home from work around midnight. Not much traffic on the roads as it was middle of the week. She looked in the mirror and saw a bunch of flashng red and blues coming up behind her but still a ways back. As she was merging into the right lane to pull over and let them by she remembers just catching a glimpse of a car without its lights on almost right on her rear bumper. The next thing she remembers is being removed from the car by paramedics.
The car that hit her was fleeing from police. He hit her going an estimated 80 miles an hour, spun the car around multiple times through the oncoming lanes and ended up wrapped around a tree. She had a concussion, neck and shoulder injuries in addition to lots of bumps and bruises. I thank God and count myself lucky every day. My daughter is still around to be a mom, a wife and a daughter.
The person who hit her was in this country illegally. For the second time. He had been arrested for drugs and deported once before.
He was drunk, drivng a stolen car, fleeing from police. The police suspect he tried a pit maneuver that went badly in an effort to slow down or stop the pursuit.
He was deported less than a week later and never really had to pay for his actions. Hell, he's probably back in the country illegally. Again.
Yet, my daughter continues to pay for those actions. She will have neck and shoulder problems for the rest of her life. Her insurance company pointed the finger at the owner of the other car, as it was "borrowed" from his brother. The other insurance company, yes the brother had insurance, refused to pay because the car was "stolen". I ended up hiring a lawyer to go after the insurance companies.
In the meanwhile my daughter was unable to work, had no car, doctors and hospitals want to get paid, the landlord wants to get paid, etc.
They had to move into a cheap apartment because the couldn't afford the place they were living in. Waitressing is hard enough with two working wings... She ultimately went back to work as a hostess for a while as she recovered, but without tips her income was cut by about 2/3.

So, to anyone that has a problem with Trump or ANYONE ELSE securing our borders, not letting people in except through the proper LEGAL process and building a wall on our southern border, I ask you this question:
WHY? Why do you have a problem with that? Are we not a country of law and order? If someone wants to migrate to this great country for a better life, become an AMERICAN, make a positive contribution to society, and do so
LEGALLY, I say God Bless America! But if you come here illegally you should expect consequences. And if you harm someone while you are here illegally you should expect to pay dearly!
I hear the liberals talking about Trump ripping families apart. I guess if someone like Trump had started enforcing our laws and securing our borders a long, long time ago none of these families would be in that position now would they? Half (probably more like 3/4) of this country seems to believe actions have consequences. The rest seem to think we are obligated to provide food, shelter, medical care and a participation trophy to anyone that shows up.

Yes, I know my experiences color my judgement. Sorry 'bout that.
Regardless of your point of view or political leanings I wish you well. At least we can agree on the subject of captive bred lion hunting, right?

Seriously, I do respect those who's view point may differ from mine. I mean no one any disrespect. Be well my friends.

Glad to have you back @IdaRam .

And glad it wasn't even worse for your daughter. ... appreciate the story and the perspective. Thanks.

@IdaRam, thanks for the post. No need to apologize for your opinion based on experience, that's worth a lot more to me than an "academic" that has little to no real world experience. Glad your daughter is still with us.

The 2 Judges blocking Trumps travel ban are Obama appointees. This deep state sabotage by the Democrats, is thinly veiled anarchy. Trump really needs to start dropping the Hammer of Thor on these people.

Attack the leftists from more angles then they can defend.

@Royal27 and @K-man thank you both for the well wishes. Much appreciated.

Compared to the socially liberal wing my party, I'm certainly middle right when it comes to immigration because I think illegal immigration has been one of the chief causes that has decimated the working and middle class economy. I understand there are jobs americans aren't going to do --- picking fruit in 90 degree weather for minimum wage is a prime example of that. However, construction is an industry that supplied hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs to middle class workers. Taking good 20 dollar an hour jobs and companies turning them into 5-12 dollar an hour jobs is just plain wrong.

I don't think the government claiming eminent domain on thousands of property owners to build a 20 billion dollar wall is the way to go for a variety of reasons.
1. Illegal border crossings have been WAY down for the last decade. I will concede that could in theory trend up again.
2. Most of the drugs smuggled into the country come in through existing checkpoints.
3. You can easily climb over or dig under the thing.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, you go after business owners and you hold them accountable for hiring legal workers and you hold them accountable for dismissing workers when their time here expires. And you make the punishments HARSH if they do not comply. The problem, from my perspective, is the republican politicians do not want to do that because they defend "free market capitalism" at all cost. Sorry, but employing illegals is not part of free market capitalism.

curtism1234 said:

I understand there are jobs americans aren't going to do --- picking fruit in 90 degree weather for minimum wage is a prime example of that.

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Not correct. Picking fruit correctly is a SKILL. Since it is not taught in schools and most "Americans" grow-up in an urban setting, they are not exposed to such training. The children in families that follow the crops are trained in this skill from a very young age and by the time they are teenagers are very accomplished. the goals of the families involve providing a service - harvesting a crop, for which they are paid by quantity harvested. All that the harvesters and the growers ask is that the government, its lawyers and its unions go back to their office and focus on some other issue rather than trying to be do-gooders. Or if the government wants "Americans" to pick fruit, belong to a union and support the Demonrat party, they should teach the proper method of picking fruits and vegetables as part of the non-existent vocational education department in the public schools.

Curtis,

I have to respectfully disagree with some of your assessment.

A border wall can be highly effective, if it is built properly. The current corrugated metal wall along some of our Arizona border is a joke.

Much of the drugs smuggled in are by groups of Mexicans with backpacks, and armed escorts. Many of the big shipments get busted at the border crossings.

Many ranchers along the border would probably agree to an easement. They suffer from the plague of illegal crossings.

If this wall is built, it needs to be done right. If so, nobody will climb it, or dig under it. A 50' tall wall with a parapet curved outward with razor wire will cure that. Guard towers with hi-tech surveillance, motiob sensors, infrared, lights, and constant patrols. It would still be cheaper in the long run, over all the collateral costs we deal with now.

curtism1234 said:

Compared to the socially liberal wing my party, I'm certainly middle right when it comes to immigration because I think illegal immigration has been one of the chief causes that has decimated the working and middle class economy. I understand there are jobs americans aren't going to do --- picking fruit in 90 degree weather for minimum wage is a prime example of that. However, construction is an industry that supplied hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs to middle class workers. Taking good 20 dollar an hour jobs and companies turning them into 5-12 dollar an hour jobs is just plain wrong.

I don't think the government claiming eminent domain on thousands of property owners to build a 20 billion dollar wall is the way to go for a variety of reasons.
1. Illegal border crossings have been WAY down for the last decade. I will concede that could in theory trend up again.
2. Most of the drugs smuggled into the country come in through existing checkpoints.
3. You can easily climb over or dig under the thing.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, you go after business owners and you hold them accountable for hiring legal workers and you hold them accountable for dismissing workers when their time here expires. And you make the punishments HARSH if they do not comply. The problem, from my perspective, is the republican politicians do not want to do that because they defend "free market capitalism" at all cost. Sorry, but employing illegals is not part of free market capitalism.

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Well it was certainly the left wing that went berserk when Arizona passed the last bill to fight illegal immigration. What no one in the media focused on with that bill was how it came down hard on businesses that employed illegal aliens.

Arizona has a history of passing restrictions on illegal immigration, including legislation in 2007 that imposed heavy sanctions on employers hiring illegal aliens.[35] Measures similar to SB 1070 had been passed by the legislature in 2006 and 2008, only to be vetoed by Democratic Governor Janet Napolitano.[2][36][37] She was subsequently appointed as Secretary of Homeland Security in the Obama administration and was replaced by Republican Secretary of State of Arizona Jan Brewer.[2][38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070

Perhaps this is part of the explanation of why so many blue collar union guys in typically Dem states such as Wisonsin and Michigan voted fro Trump?


Regarding the wall, I actually agree with you. I've been to the border in various places and while it may deter / slow down it won't stop someone who is determined to enter the country. Regarding your numbers 1-3 in your post.

1. If illegal immigration has been way down, it's because the economy has sucked and the jobs just haven't been there. I never thought I'd see a landscaping crew that consisted of U.S. citizens, but you see plenty of them now. Landscaping in 100 plus degree heat is a job and better than being unemployed I guess. If the economy improves to where there are better and higher paying jobs available, you'll see I believe an increase in illegal immigration. Simple matter of supply/demand.

2. Not sure where you get your data, you may be correct but I'd like to see the data that shows that. One of the ironic issues that has been established and may explain also why illegal immigration is down are the drug cartels. They are preying on these people and forcing them into acting as mules to carry drugs into the country as well as charging them for the privilege. Many either don't have the money or have determined the risk of being around the cartels isn't worth it.

3. Easily? No not easily. Try digging into rock or the rock hard soils we have in the desert. Regardless I don't think the return on that investment makes it worthwhile.

Brent in Az said:

It would still be cheaper in the long run, over all the collateral costs we deal with now.

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You may be right about that Brent, but I'd like to see the numbers. That stretch of mountains along the Arizona southern border, mighty tough place to build that wall.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

You may be right about that Brent, but I'd like to see the numbers. That stretch of mountains along the Arizona southern border, mighty tough place to build that wall.

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True. The topography is pretty rugged in many areas. I am not optimistic about Trumps cost projection of 15-20 billion. To do it right would cost considerably more. Especially with the terrain over a thousand plus miles?

curtism1234 said:

I understand there are jobs americans aren't going to do

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Interesting statement. There is a certain demographic in this country that is perfectly happy just getting by. They refuse minimum wage jobs because they would do worse by forfeiting the entitlements that support them now. They have no desire or ambition to get better educated or learn a skill, and the more children they have, the more their monthly stipend increases. We currently reward this mentality and it has to stop or the dependency on government hand outs never will.

BSO Dave said:

Interesting statement. There is a certain demographic in this country that is perfectly happy just getting by. They refuse minimum wage jobs because they would do worse by forfeiting the entitlements that support them now. They have no desire or ambition to get better educated or learn a skill, and the more children they have, the more their monthly stipend increases. We currently reward this mentality and it has to stop or the dependency on government hand outs never will.

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The free handouts have got to go and should have never been implemented in the first place.
There are several programs that I do agree with but be damned you will be properly screened and rescreened to get assistance.

curtism1234 said:

If you want to stop illegal immigration, you go after business owners and you hold them accountable for hiring legal workers and you hold them accountable for dismissing workers when their time here expires. And you make the punishments HARSH if they do not comply. The problem, from my perspective, is the republican politicians do not want to do that because they defend "free market capitalism" at all cost. Sorry, but employing illegals is not part of free market capitalism.

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We dont agree on a whole lot.. but this I can agree with you on...

We keep trying to attack the supply side of the illegal immigration problem.. same thing on the "war on drugs"... and dont do a whole lot on the demand side of the equation..

Eliminate the reason illegal immigrants want to come here.. and they will stop coming... punish the companies that employ them and make the jobs dry up.. get rid of the free food, free healthcare, and free everything else that can be taken advantage of.. and there will be no motivation to come here unless you do it RIGHT and LEGALLY (then you can get a job, take advantage of the healthcare, etc..etc..)..

Im not saying dont build a wall... and dont punish the actual illegals harshly as well... I think both of those things should occur..

I think the solution is a combination of attacking both supply (the illegals themselves.. make it both difficult to get her, and painful if you get caught here illegally).. and the demand (hammer anyone or any business caught employing them)..

Just today, a killer who was deported got caught trying to sneak back in.

I just read the post by @BRICKBURN in the News & Announcements section about the new Meercat system being employed by SANParks in Kruger to combat Rhino poaching. Seems like there could be an application for that system on the southern US border.
And I agree wholeheartedly with attacking the demand side as well as the supply side of the illegal immigration issue. Employers who hire illegal workers are a part of the problem as well and should face stiff penalties if caught.

Anyone hear the list of jobs that are too hard or lowly for Americans and think Boy that's what we did when we were kids to pay for our muscle car, beer, and money to take a girl to drive-in?

Brent in Az said:

Just today, a killer who was deported got caught trying to sneak back in.

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A few swift and proper examples be made with these people and I think the "risk vs reward" will diminish greatly.

David Middleton said:

Anyone hear the list of jobs that are too hard or lowly for Americans and think Boy that's what we did when we were kids to pay for our muscle car, beer, and money to take a girl to drive-in?

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When I was a kid I worked on our rice farm for free, and loved it. I remember the first summer my grandfather paid me. I was stunned and so excited. I hadn't expected a dime.

So yeah... The whole "jobs Americans won't do" comment made me throw up in my mouth, just a little bit... It isn't just the children in our society that are spoiled.

Royal27 said:

It isn't just the children in our society that are spoiled.

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^^ This ^^

I tarred commercial roofs the summer of my junior year of high school... 16 years old, mid July, on top of a building in 100+ degree southeastern heat.. for 10+ hours a day.. spreading black tar...

for minimum wage...

Thew newspapers in the rain, snow, heat, etc.. between the ages of 13-15... for less than minimum wage plus tips..

and was proud to do all of it.. loved "making my own money" and being responsible...

Times have certainly changed..