The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

Doug Hamilton said:

So what if it falls on you to stop the charge? If you start the crisis, you should be able to end it. That happened on my first safari. A "dead" buffalo got up and started for the PH at about ten feet. Due to a mechanical failure of his rifle, it just went "click." I broke that bulls neck with my .458 Win. On my last safari I used the same rifle to blow out the top of another bulls heart. He went about 20 yards and folded up never to move again.

I can't say that I really like the recoil of a .458, but I shoot my other rifles enough that a flinch has not been a problem. One is f those other rifles is a .300 Win the I have set up with an identical Timney trigger and fire controls. I just don't see the benefit of pushing the ultra small boundary into marginal performance.

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Gee! I swear, I do not know Doug Hamilton and I did not pay him to post this, minutes after my last post

Would a .375 have broken the Buff neck? Maybe. But since Doug Hamilton clearly shoots the .458 well, he for sure was better armed with it for what happened, however rare it is.

No doubt the .375 (or 9.3x62) is a better gun for one-rifle safaris, and no doubt most clients shoot it better than a 40 something (Red Leg's point -- with which I agree, although he also shoots the big stuff well), but, no doubt also a .45+ hits harder the day it counts when things get hairy on Buff or Ele (and I would add Hippo on land; and probably Black Rhino too but it is so far out of my financial reach that never mind...).

Thank you Doug for a real-life example illustrating the point I was making, and making the salient point that a cannon is not always a myth ... if you can shoot it well, which has been my point from the beginning, although I agree that those who are bruised by the cannons are infinitely better served with a .375 they can shoot

I think I’ve figured out this forum’s version 9mm vs 45 ACP.

Safari Dave said:

On my last DG trip to Africa, I took a .375 H&H and .416 Rigby to the range and shot them both without using a bench rest.


I was more accurate with the .416 and couldn't feel the difference in recoil. (As could my son)


The .416 made the trip.

The .375 stayed home.


Bullet placement beats energy (almost) any day, but if you can shoot a more powerful rifle just as accurately, as a less powerful rifle, it's a "no-brainer."

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Bullseye! ... Or maybe this is the wrong place to use that term? At any rate, very well said!

One Day... said:

The part we have a different perspective on, as you know, is that even as a client, and because I shoot the Lott well enough, I want the ability to be able to handle wounded DG with the highest probability (not certainty!) of success. There are enough cases out there, all the way to 'today', of the PH getting hammered or running out of ammo, and the client saving the day. Rare? Yes. Unheard of? No. I want this last ditch ability, however remote the chance of using it, and I want the best tool I know how to use for it.

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Exactly. I have been charged before and I was the one that brought the elephant down as the PH was blocked by one of the trackers. The .500 MDM did the job.

Houston Bill said:

Well, for me I guess I don't have a trade off to worry about. My new Rigby Shikari in 500 NE is comfortable for me to shoot and while not quite as big a bruiser as the 577 or 600 NE, I think it is big enough to be considered an "overkill" by your definition.

In general my belief when hunting the big DG critters, buffalo, elephant, rhino and hippo is shoot the biggest caliber you can comfortably and accurately shoot. Now one has to be honest with themselves about what caliber they can comfortably shoot and there are many, many stories of the hunter who shows up in Africa with calibers such as the 460 Weatherby or the 577 NE and they cant hit the broad side of barn door because they excessively flinch or they peek or both. I completely agree that correct 1st shot placement is the most important aspect of shooting dangerous game (assuming you have a sufficient caliber with a proper bullet).

I suspect most hunters can comfortably shoot a 375 H&H if the rifle is of sufficient weight and it fits them reasonably well. All DG can ethically be hunted with a 375 H&H with the proper bullets.

My good friend @Mark Biggerstaff is a big man and he can comfortably shoot a 458 Lott very accurately. I have shot his rifle and the recoil is a bit to much for me, but the felt recoil when I shoot my Rigby 500 NE is quite a bit less than Mark's 458 Lott even though their recoil energy figures are similar....go figure

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Difference of weight beetween your 2 rifle ...maybe ...and P.S.I of exercise surely of your two rounds.

Flbt said:

I know more about defense type shooting than buff and elephant hunting.
I have heard people say in defense use I use a 22 lr and plan to just shoot them in the head the 22 will work as good as any thing in the head,
( your 9.3 cns)
My question to them is how do you know you will get a brain shot?
When shit gets bloody there are no guarantees of what you will get and that very much is including A brain shot

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Say you don’t get the brain shot, which is certainly possible when things go wrong. In that situation, no shot from any caliber is going to prove fatal if it isn’t placed properly.

Tanks said:

Exactly. I have been charged before and I was the one that brought the elephant down as the PH was blocked by one of the trackers. The .500 MDM did the job.

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I'm sure it was the man behind the gun that played a big role in putting the charge down. Now if you placed the exact shot using a say 300 grns solid, do you think it would have made any difference?
I want to genuinely understand your perspective as I do know you are very experienced in this field.

I guess I have shot well over 100 animals, maybe as many as 150 with my 375, 270 grain TSX, from Africa, Alberta, Quebec, Louisiana. I have shot about 15 animals with my 500 A2, 570grn TSX. The difference in the animals reaction is very easy to see, it is instantly devastating. Like Nigel my ph says it hurts them so bad, so quickly they do not even think about you.
I shoot it from the bench all of the time, I have it in a Bell&Carlson synthetic stock, with a Pachmyer 990 pad and sometimes put a piece of closed cell foam between stock and my shoulder. It is a crazy accurate rifle and never notice the recoil on an animal.

SStomcat said:

Say you don’t get the brain shot, which is certainly possible when things go wrong. In that situation, no shot from any caliber is going to prove fatal if it isn’t placed properly.

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This is where the stopping caliber rifles come into play. The shot as you say might not be fatal, but can it stop the charge or at a minimum stun the animal long enough to get a fatal shot into him. I personally believe a minimum stopping caliber starts at 458 and arguably 500. Body shots with the 9.3 or 375 have little chance of slowing down a charge.

First couple buffalo I shot was with a 375. Very little reaction to the shot. Next couple of buffalo were taken with a 458 Lott. Unbelievable difference in the animals reaction. The Lott just about took them off their feet and resulted in very quick kills. Next hunt is going to be with my 500 Jeffery. Looking forward to seeing the buffalo's reaction to a 600 grain Woodleigh or 647 grain TSX. And yes there will be a lot of practice time at the range before I take it to Africa.

MLindsay said:

I guess I have shot well over 100 animals, maybe as many as 150 with my 375, 270 grain TSX, from Africa, Alberta, Quebec, Louisiana. I have shot about 15 animals with my 500 A2, 570grn TSX. The difference in the animals reaction is very easy to see, it is instantly devastating. Like Nigel my ph says it hurts them so bad, so quickly they do not even think about you.
I shoot it from the bench all of the time, I have it in a Bell&Carlson synthetic stock, with a Pachmyer 990 pad and sometimes put a piece of closed cell foam between stock and my shoulder. It is a crazy accurate rifle and never notice the recoil on an animal.

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Understood, no denying the power of the 500 A Square if I get it right. Depends on what your goals are, as you say you have killed over 150 animals with 270 grns TSX, is killing ethically and properly the goal or is it to create a catastrophic wound and see the animal reaction more important to you. Ultimately its your choice and I respect that, there is no right vs wrong, in the end both kills right.

Mark458 said:

This is where the stopping caliber rifles come into play. The shot as you say might not be fatal, but can it stop the charge or at a minimum stun the animal long enough to get a fatal shot into him. I personally believe a minimum stopping caliber starts at 458 and arguably 500. Body shots with the 9.3 or 375 have little chance of slowing down a charge.

First couple buffalo I shot was with a 375. Very little reaction to the shot. Next couple of buffalo were taken with a 458 Lott. Unbelievable difference in the animals reaction. The Lott just about took them off their feet and resulted in very quick kills. Next hunt is going to be with my 500 Jeffery. Looking forward to seeing the buffalo's reaction to a 600 grain Woodleigh or 647 grain TSX. And yes there will be a lot of practice time at the range before I take it to Africa.

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Ok, I will beg to disagree agreeably. I have asked before, will a shot from your 458 in the rumen, or the thick muscle mass of its neck stop or even stun a close charge from a adrenaline filled wounded buffalo?
I agree there will be more shock and awe, just like firing from a bazooka will create more noise.
I do not feel it will. Your mileage may vary.

1. Proper shot placement is the most important aspect.
2. Properly fitted rifle.
3. Shot as big a rifle as you can shoot accurately 100% of the time.
4. Understand your strengths and weakness as a shooter/hunter and know when to walk away from a shot.
5. Show up in shape for the hunt!!!!!!!!!, doesn't do you or the PH team any good if you can stay on track for the duration of the hunt.
6. enjoy the experience first and foremost.

I have shot big bore since i was a young lad. Everyone's recoil tolerance is different. some folks top out at the wicked recoil of a 30/06 and others at 4 bore.

There has been many different threads where we have discussed recoil management, proper shot placement on all of the worlds game at length. So read them as you prepare for your DG hunt.

SStomcat said:

Ok, I will beg to disagree agreeably. I have asked before, will a shot from your 458 in the rumen, or the thick muscle mass of its neck stop or even stun a close charge from a adrenaline filled wounded buffalo?
I agree there will be more shock and awe, just like firing from a bazooka will create more noise.
I do not feel it will. Your mileage may vary.

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I never said it definitely would stop or slow the charge, but it definitely stands much more of a chance than the 9.3. A charging Buffalo will be hard to hit in the rumen without going through something else first. I know Kevin Robertson has discussed this several times and has first hand experience with stopping buffalo with shots to the chest with 600 grain Woodleighs softs (I believe) from his 505 Gibbs. I've seen plenty of videos of large caliber shots that have stunned and turned buffalo and elephant. I have also seen videos where the shots had little to no affect from large caliber guns.

It's not a sure thing by any means, but it does give you some odds with large calibers where small calibers give you almost no odds at all. Better a longshot over a no shot. My two cents once again.

I own one +40 caliber rifle ... that I built. Would have been 375 H&H but it is more difficult to fit into a standard Mauser action. I knew 404 Jeffery would just fit with minimal modification to receiver. Well, relatively minimal. I'm not sure it's "stopping power" greatly exceeds 375, but I'm quite certain I'll never need to find out. If I kill any more buffalo, it will be culling and no need to get up close and personal for that work. If a good shot doesn't present itself, I can pass, pay the daily rate, and walk away with some scenery shots on my phone. I'm fine with that. "What's next?" I find it's difficult to get overly excited about culling. No stress = less probability of taking or making a bad shot.

The objective, I feel with buffs is to kill it and incapacitate it quickly preventing any danger to hunting party. A person could do that with a 308 and brain shoot one perfectly, however if the bull moves his head at the instance of trigger pull a problem will arise. The 375 does not have the reaction I want, I have shot 20 or more feral hogs with my 375 in the shoulder and some have run over 50 yards. You shoot a buff in the shoulder with my 500 and I guess the average movement is at most 10 yards

Mark458 said:

I never said it definitely would stop or slow the charge, but it definitely stands much more of a chance than the 9.3.

It's not a sure thing by any means, but it does give you some odds with large calibers where small calibers give you almost no odds at all. Better a longshot over a no shot. My two cents once again.

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I think we are coming to an agreement, shot placement in the right caliber trumps everything else.
IMHO, when you have a charging buffalo at 10 yards or less, it is a choice between life and death. You do not take chances or leave anything to chance you pay the price if you do.

BTW - is the pelican 1200 in the mail?

SStomcat said:

I think we are coming to an agreement, shot placement in the right caliber trumps everything else.
IMHO, when you have a charging buffalo at 10 yards or less, it is a choice between life and death. You do not take chances or leave anything to chance you pay the price if you do.

BTW - is the pelican 1200 in the mail?

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Yes, BOTH pelican cases are in the mail.

SStomcat said:

I think we are coming to an agreement, shot placement in the right caliber trumps everything else.
IMHO, when you have a charging buffalo at 10 yards or less, it is a choice between life and death. You do not take chances or leave anything to chance you pay the price if you do.

BTW - is the pelican 1200 in the mail?

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I prefer to make certain that I am doing everything in my power to insure that situation has no chance of occurring. That means a dead accurate first shot. With respect to a buffalo or elephant at ten yards, you better brain him and in that case it matters not whether you are using a forty or a .375. What does matter is that the rifle in your hands is one you can shoot quickly and instinctively.

Red Leg said:

I prefer to make certain that I am doing everything in my power to insure that situation has no chance of occurring. That means a dead accurate first shot. With respect to a buffalo or elephant at ten yards, you better brain him and in that case it matters not whether you are using a forty or a .375. What does matter is that the rifle in your hands is one you can shoot quickly and instinctively.

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Couldn’t agree more.

There are two things at play here. Killing power versus killing with stunning/stopping power. Yes, a .375 H&H will kill all of the DG animals. I have used a .375 H&H many times and will again. A .458 Lott will also kill. The difference is that the Lott (or similar 4s or 5s) will transfer more energy to the animal and stun it more, which can be helpful if shot placement wasn’t perfect. I have seen the reaction differences between these two calibers many times on brown bears, buffalo and elephant. There is a difference and to deny it is silly. The larger bore can give you more time to keep shooting.

I have also seen different reactions in smaller big game with everything from arrows to big bores. A well placed arrow (heart/both lungs) will kill an elk very quickly but we don’t see elk instantly drop to arrows in the heart/lungs like we sometimes do when shot with a .30 caliber or larger rifle cartridge. It’s just physics.

I’ve seen the same reaction differences on plains game and big game here in the States. Just yesterday we guided a moose hunter shooting a .308. His first two shots were fatal hits but the moose just stood there. One of the other guides actually called the first shot as a miss but it was not. We told the hunter to keep shooting because most of the time nobody knows exactly where an animal is hit unless you can rewind a video and watch. The moose finally reacted to the fifth shot and fell over. I guarantee that if that moose was shot with a .458 Lott, you would have been certain it was hit on the first shot.

Like others have stated, shoot a .375 if that’s your recoil limit or you want to generalize or bring just one rifle. If you can shoot something larger very well and like to specialize more, bring two rifles on a combined DG and PG safari.