450 Rigby vs 460 Weatherby

Not to belabor the point, but at least 50% of the perception of recoil boils down to rifle weight and stock design. I have rifles in 378, 416 Weatherby, and 500 A2, and the recoil in all three is very acceptable. The 378 is a Brevex Mauser, the 416 is from H-S Precision, and the A2 is is an original A2. Don’t confuse the chambering with poor rifle design.

analog_peninsula said:

Not to belabor the point, but at least 50% of the perception of recoil boils down to rifle weight and stock design. I have rifles in 378, 416 Weatherby, and 500 A2, and the recoil in all three is very acceptable. The 378 is a Brevex Mauser, the 416 is from H-S Precision, and the A2 is is an original A2. Don’t confuse the chambering with poor rifle design.

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You might be correct in your assessment. The 460 I shot was a Weatherby rifle with a muzzle break. I have also shot a 416 and a 378 in the past. Both were Weatherby rifles and both of those were also very stout in the recoil department.

Perhaps Weatherby should design the cartridge and leave the rifle design to someone else. Beautiful guns, but seems like they are a bit light for caliber.

Mark458 said:

I'm a bit late to the party but here's my 2 cents. I shot a 460 Weatherby once, and once was enough to know I wasn't into self abuse. I personally don't see enough advantage in the FPS to justify the additional recoil. My caliber of choice is the 458 Lott so I'm not scared of recoil within reason. I have a 450 Rigby that I'm going to shoot for the first time next Monday. I'm meeting someone at the range that wants to step up in caliber from his 375 for a buffalo hunt and I'm bringing the 450 Rigby, a 458 Lott and a couple of 416 Rigbys for him to try. I'm looking forward to seeing what the 450 Rigby feels like, and how it shoots.

My biggest deciding factor has been touched on a bit within this thread. How many of you out there know of any PH'S that carry a 460 Weatherby. I've been going to Africa for about 25 years now and 13 trips in and I've never met a PH with a 460 Weatherby. The guys who do it for a living know what's going on. I feel it's worth paying attention to what they use because they put their life on the line every day.

Not trying to talk anyone out of using the 460. If that's your caliber of choice then by all means go forth and have fun. It's just not for me.

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Your logic is sound.

To me, the 460 is more velocity than is useful, sort of like an Indy car used for grocery runs. A 500 grain bullet at 2600-2700 actually can decrease penetration and often leads to failure of bullets not designed for those speeds.

The 450 Rigby is my choice for a 500gr at 2400, as long as the rifle is heavy enough. Any 9.5 pound rifle firing a cartridge of this power level is going to beat you to death. Those with thin barrels, light synthetic stocks and no optics usually result in otherwise nice folks taking the Lords name in vain immediately after pulling the trigger.

The same ammo fired in a rifle with a longer and heavier barrel, a heavy wood or laminate stock and set up with optics usually results in a smile and these same folks comment "That wasn't that bad!".

Schüler Jumbo said:

So what? What point are you trying to make here?

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— Factory Mark V .460 Wby rifles are predominantly push-feed, and not optimal for DG.

— Even from a CRF action, the .460 Wby ballistics of 500gr/2700fps are neither necessary, nor helpful, on buffalo as 2350-2500fps MV is ample if not ideal. (.460 Wby cases have also been known to stick.)

Schüler Jumbo said:

Do you consider the .450 Dakota common place with PH’s?

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— I suspect more African PHs today use the .450 Dakota than the .460 Wby. This seemed possible even in 2007 from Boddington's Safari Rifles II.

Schüler Jumbo said:

Do you consider the .450 Dakota common place with PH’s?

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— Although the .375H&H has much historical inertia and rifles/ammo abound, the standard action beltless .375 Ruger is gaining market share. Folks don't use it for the belt, but because it's common and effective enough. Without its 109 year head start, I doubt the .375H&H could compete against the .375 Ruger today. In fact, the popularity of the standard action 9.3x62 (a beltless .366/286gr) illustrates my point. Had not WWII intervened, I believe that it and its bigger brother 9.3x64 would be the workhouse DG calibers in Africa today, not the .375H&H.

Schüler Jumbo said:

There are engineering reasons and operating experience as to why the .458 Winchester is considered the best of the big bores.

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Uh, what? Its max of 465gr/2200fps and 500gr/2050fps is "considered the best of the big bores"???
That's 450fps less than what a .450 Dakota can deliver (and without compression.
Its MV is less than the 100yd impact velocity of the .458 Lott (which is no .416 Rigby cased beast).
I think it more accurate to say that "the .458WM is the .30-30 of big bores".
(The late Finn Aagaard liked it, but the excellence of the man made up for the caliber.)

You're a curious fellow, advocating for .458/500gr MV extremes of 2050fps and 2700fps, while eschewing the well-proven 2350-2500fps. Ek verstaan jou nie.

Good day.

.460 Weatherby case capacity is extremely useful with a wide range of bullet weights and designs, especially monometals. You don’t have a basis for what you suspect. PH’s will shoot what they can afford and what ammunition is available. What are the advertised ballistics on a factory box of .450 Dakota? I haven’t found any available. “The downside of the Dakota cartridges include the high cost of brass, the lack of readily available factory ammunition along with the non standard case head design. This last issue is unfortunately the major limiting factor regarding the mainstream popularity of the Dakota cartridge line”- not a chance a PH invests in this. Weatherby factory ammo and component brass very much alive and well. Where is Dakota?

The .375 Holland & Holland is the mainstream of Africa. Period.

Research the .458 Winchester engineering to help you understand.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

The late Finn Aagaard liked it, but the excellence of the man made up for the caliber.)

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Let me help you here. You meant to write “cartridge”. A cartridge is the completed assembly of case, primer, powder, and bullet. “Caliber is simply the diameter of the bullet.

A basic understanding of internal and external ballistics would help you; Kennis is krag

Schüler Jumbo, if you want to take a push-feed Rem 700 .458 Win Mag to Africa for DG, do so.

I don't mind that we completely disagree on such, but I find you tedious and pointless to correspond with. Good day.

I would have absolutely no problem in either taking a push feed designed rifle and/or the excellent .458 Winchester Magnum against dangerous game. The Great American PH and my friend, George Hoffman carried a Weatherby MKV action chambered .416 Hoffman for several years and used it with complete satisfaction against dangerous game. To help you a little further, George developed the .416 Hoffman which is the forerunner to the wonderful belted .416 Remington Magnum.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

I find you tedious and pointless to correspond with.

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Lekker vir my

The 458's in question (460WBY 450 Rigby and Dakota) are very similar in case capacity, and all work through similar actions and magazines. The primary difference is operating pressure. The Weatherby operates at 65000psi, the Dakota at 62000psi and the Rigby at 58000psi. In quality brass cases they could probably all be loaded to the 65000psi pressure level and give near identical ballistics.

In factory rifles, none have been produced in any great quantity, especially compared to the 458 Winchester. Ammunition and brass has never been widespread, but the Weatherby seems more common than the other 2, but that may change in the future.

In my opinion the 458 Winchester will hold on, but the 458 Lott will grow in popularity among client hunters. My prediction is the 460 Weatherby and 450 Dakota will gradually fade but remain available leaving the 450 Rigby in a niche among PH's as a backup or stopping rifle. I currently know 2 PH's that have 450 Rigby rifles they use daily, and another 2 PH's that are actively looking for 450 Rigby rifles.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

— Factory Mark V .460 Wby rifles are predominantly push-feed, and not optimal for DG.

— Even from a CRF action, the .460 Wby ballistics of 500gr/2700fps are neither necessary, nor helpful, on buffalo as 2350-2500fps MV is ample if not ideal. (.460 Wby cases have also been known to stick.)


— I suspect more African PHs today use the .450 Dakota than the .460 Wby. This seemed possible even in 2007 from Boddington's Safari Rifles II.


— Although the .375H&H has much historical inertia and rifles/ammo abound, the standard action beltless .375 Ruger is gaining market share. Folks don't use it for the belt, but because it's common and effective enough. Without its 109 year head start, I doubt the .375H&H could compete against the .375 Ruger today. In fact, the popularity of the standard action 9.3x62 (a beltless .366/286gr) illustrates my point. Had not WWII intervened, I believe that it and its bigger brother 9.3x64 would be the workhouse DG calibers in Africa today, not the .375H&H.


Uh, what? Its max of 465gr/2200fps and 500gr/2050fps is "considered the best of the big bores"???
That's 450fps less than what a .450 Dakota can deliver (and without compression.
Its MV is less than the 100yd impact velocity of the .458 Lott (which is no .416 Rigby cased beast).
I think it more accurate to say that "the .458WM is the .30-30 of big bores".
(The late Finn Aagaard liked it, but the excellence of the man made up for the caliber.)

You're a curious fellow, advocating for .458/500gr MV extremes of 2050fps and 2700fps, while eschewing the well-proven 2350-2500fps. Ek verstaan jou nie.

Good day.

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Where are you finding brass or ammo to feed a .450 Dakota?

skydiver386 said:

My prediction is the 460 Weatherby and 450 Dakota will gradually fade but remain available leaving the 450 Rigby in a niche among PH's as a backup or stopping rifle. I currently know 2 PH's that have 450 Rigby rifles they use daily, and another 2 PH's that are actively looking for 450 Rigby rifles.

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Perhaps among PHs the .450 Rigby will edge out the .450 Dakota due to brass availability in Africa. Many of their choices are dictated by local supply, whereas in America such is much more rare.

I think the utility and reliability of a magnum-action beltless .458 sending 500gr/2400fps with no pressure issues will always be desirable. I also think the .450 Dakota is better designed than the .450 Rigby, so that's why I chose it. I'd be fine with a .450 Rigby, though its 45° shoulder will wear out sooner than something like ~30°.

Tex .416 said:

Where are you finding brass or ammo to feed a .450 Dakota?

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For me there is no "are finding" since I stocked up on brass when I bought the rifle years ago. My max loads are 500gr/2400fps, which is perfectly lethal on buff, doesn't recoil excessively, and extends case life. I think 100 hulls, carefully used, monitored, annealed, etc. will be a lifetime supply for this middle-aged man. Primers, powder, and bullets abound. It's an easy magnum round to handload, and likes RL-15 and 4350. (Now, if I begin to often use it as my medium rifle, well I'd then probably need to start looking for more brass.)

However, if .450 Dakota brass has since my day become very difficult to procure, that's news to me. I'd still have a hard time believing that .450 Rigby brass was significantly more available. Is it?

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Perhaps among PHs the .450 Rigby will edge out the .450 Dakota due to brass availability in Africa. Many of their choices are dictated by local supply, whereas in America such is much more rare.

I think the utility and reliability of a magnum-action beltless .458 sending 500gr/2400fps with no pressure issues will always be desirable. I also think the .450 Dakota is better designed than the .450 Rigby, so that's why I chose it. I'd be fine with a .450 Rigby, though its 45° shoulder will wear out sooner than something like ~30°.



For me there is no "are finding" since I stocked up on brass when I bought the rifle years ago. My max loads are 500gr/2400fps, which is perfectly lethal on buff, doesn't recoil excessively, and extends case life. I think 100 hulls, carefully used, monitored, annealed, etc. will be a lifetime supply for this middle-aged man. Primers, powder, and bullets abound. It's an easy magnum round to handload, and likes RL-15 and 4350. (Now, if I begin to often use it as my medium rifle, well I'd then probably need to start looking for more brass.)

However, if .450 Dakota brass has since my day become very difficult to procure, that's news to me. I'd still have a hard time believing that .450 Rigby brass was significantly more available. Is it?

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You may have stocked up years ago, but your comments suggesting the .450 Dakota is more popular than and will outlive the .460 Weatherby is hard to support without any brass or ammo available to the general market. Where are all of these PH’s that are supposed to have .450 Dakotas buying their brass or ammo?

I have a .330 Dakota and love it. But ammo for it is extraordinarily rare, the .450 Dakota is even rarer. Bottom line is the Dakota cartridge line is obsolete at this point. The .450 Rigby is close behind teetering on the edge of the obsolete abyss which is a real shame. .460 Weatherby brass is readily available and can be loaded from mild to wild. As long as Weatherby exists, they seem to do a good job supporting their chamberings, unlike Remington, Ruger, and less so Winchester.

I really want a .450 Rigby for no particular reason, but I am not in the mood to add another soon to be obsolete chambering to the safe. Perhaps Rigby could contract for a large run of brass?

Factory 450 Rigby ammo is certainly more available than 450 Dakota although most definitely not overly plentiful and very pricey. Grizzly Cartridge shows in stock 450 Rigby ammo for sale and Hendershots has custom loaded ammo in new cases.

I love the Dakota 76 rifles and proprietary cartridges. Have seen some nice big bore Dakota 76 rifles for sale chambered in Dakota’s proprietary 404, 416 and 450 Dakota at excellent prices due to hard to find ammo no doubt, but they are just very nice clubs to me unless I can get at least 100 loaded rounds or cases.

I’ll just stick with my 458 Lott with 500 grain bullets at 2300 FPS but if given a choice between a 450 Dakota or 450 Rigby, I’d select the 450 Rigby for much better odds in securing ammo.

When it comes to handloads, there is no need to discuss the ballistic advantages of the three cartridges caliber 458 mentioned. It is reasonable to assume that these cartridges are frequently reloaded, especially the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum which is more common that the two others among hunters but also shooters who do not hunt with. The latter group quite often uses reduced loads, and I am also fairly certain that the majority of hunters use this cartridge with loads comparable to those of the cartridges 450 Rigby or 450 Dakota. The still somewhat overloaded factory loads 460 Weatherby Magnum are a matter of tradition rather than a necessity. I don't know if there is a good market for them. The only advantage of the higher muzzle velocity would be tactical long range shooting, but I don't know of anyone who actually does that with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum.

BTP-KennethWRoyce said:

Perhaps among PHs the .450 Rigby will edge out the .450 Dakota due to brass availability in Africa. Many of their choices are dictated by local supply, whereas in America such is much more rare.

I think the utility and reliability of a magnum-action beltless .458 sending 500gr/2400fps with no pressure issues will always be desirable. I also think the .450 Dakota is better designed than the .450 Rigby, so that's why I chose it. I'd be fine with a .450 Rigby, though its 45° shoulder will wear out sooner than something like ~30°.



For me there is no "are finding" since I stocked up on brass when I bought the rifle years ago. My max loads are 500gr/2400fps, which is perfectly lethal on buff, doesn't recoil excessively, and extends case life. I think 100 hulls, carefully used, monitored, annealed, etc. will be a lifetime supply for this middle-aged man. Primers, powder, and bullets abound. It's an easy magnum round to handload, and likes RL-15 and 4350. (Now, if I begin to often use it as my medium rifle, well I'd then probably need to start looking for more brass.)

However, if .450 Dakota brass has since my day become very difficult to procure, that's news to me. I'd still have a hard time believing that .450 Rigby brass was significantly more available. Is it?

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skydiver386 said:

Bertram 450 Rigby Brass

Buy new Bertram .450 Rigby unprimed brass cases from the authorized U.S. Bertram distributor. Domestic inventory, support, and volume programs.

deserttechmunitions.com

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I have routinely been able to get 450 Rigby brass and Hendershots has it in stock with a good variety of loads available. They can also customize any load you need. I don't see any available 450 Dakota brass and Hendershots is out of stock as well. This seems to be the norm lately.

grand veneur said:

When it comes to handloads, there is no need to discuss the ballistic advantages of the three cartridges caliber 458 mentioned. It is reasonable to assume that these cartridges are frequently reloaded, especially the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum which is more common that the two others among hunters but also shooters who do not hunt with. The latter group quite often uses reduced loads, and I am also fairly certain that the majority of hunters use this cartridge with loads comparable to those of the cartridges 450 Rigby or 450 Dakota. The still somewhat overloaded factory loads 460 Weatherby Magnum are a matter of tradition rather than a necessity. I don't know if there is a good market for them. The only advantage of the higher muzzle velocity would be tactical long range shooting, but I don't know of anyone who actually does that with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum.

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The 460 Weatherby was and always will be a powerful, but short to medium range heavy and dangerous game round. It is only good for the biggest and the toughest, but then again that is exactly what it was designed for.

The 416 Rigby case was the basis for quite a number of cartridges under discussion in this thread. The only bolt action cartridges available that give an increase in powder capacity are the 505, the Nitro Express cartridges with the rim removed and the 50BMG.

The 338 Lapua based on the 416 Rigby is the one to use for long range. Several individuals tried the 338 Winchester for long range shooting, but found it lacked the velocity with heavy bullets to be viable. The 338 Lapua was brilliant in that it used a combination of existing ideas and components to deliver a round with good accuracy and energy at extended distances. Lapua simply developed it before anyone else did.

Novices argue over tactics, professionals discuss logistics. Military history shows lack of logistics planning and support leads to defeat such as both Napoleon and Hitler invading Russia, and Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

Paraphrasing for our passion,
Collectors and Devotees argue over their preference, experience favors logistic sustainment (availability). Unobtainium anything must be avoided!

Ammunition logistics include,

• Ammunition is readily available in one’s home country and country of hunt.
• Is that cartridge’s popularity waxing or waning? If it waning, one better stock up for several years supply.

Loading ammunition logistics for Africa hunting include,

• Is properly head stamped brass available?
• Are adequate bullets available?
• Are adequate powders and primers available?

I’ve spent more than a few years maintaining, supplying, procuring, and planning sustainment or in olden days’ terms, Integrated Logistics Support (ILS) for combat essential weapons systems. Of course I started as a farmboy where if machinery was inoperable good weather conditions might me missed resulting in loss of harvest. Having spare parts on hand was critical on the farm and to ensure high operational availability of combat systems.

Toward this subject, my years shooting and collecting vintage firearms which taught me, if the shot is critical for life, finances, or to win a trophy be it via targets of game animals, don’t mess around with being special. It’s the old keep it simple rule. What works and is it available?

I love guns like many of you readers. My logistic rule for buying rifles that I want to hunt with is can I obtain several hundred new cartridge cases? 200 to 300 cases should be a lifetime supply. For wildcat cartridges converted from popular cartridges such as the .416 Taylor, the available brass can be formed for practice rounds saving properly head stamped brass for international hunts.

Considering the big .458 cartridges .450 Dakota, Rigby, and .460 Weatherby, any will be excessively adequate for dangerous game. Owning a .450 Rigby I hate to admit it but the Weatherby may prove to be the most available brass a decade from now. Of course, I think the .458 Lott is perfectly adequate for dangerous game and that my Trusty .458 Win properly loaded hasn’t let me down.





Going from logistics of brass to cartridge performance, the aforementioned Big Three .458 cartridges are really comparable to the .500 cartridges for dangerous game stopping power. Is the Lott a stopping rifle? Many PH’s use one if nothing more than rifle and ammunition availability. There’s logistics again.

Oh, if these .458’s aren’t comparable to a .500 Nitro, .500 Jeffery, or .505 Gibbs in stopping power, then why bother?

The .450 Dakota, Rigby, and .460 Weatherby, and larger bore rifles are adequate stopping rifles in the hands of a “good under pressure” marksman. Do most shooters need their power level with corresponding increased recoil? The following recoil table lists energy and recoil for the same weight rifles. I didn’t derive recoil for rifles heavier than 11.5 pounds. Ten percent more rifle weight will reduce felt recoil by 10%. If you must, at 13 pounds felt recoil will be 10% lower than for 11.5 pounds.



Since I will NOT shoot a muzzle brake in Africa due to my tracker’s hearing, I find the .458 Win recoil healthy and that of the Lott gets my attention! My .450 Rigby doesn’t get shot as much as my other .458’s and you can guess why. But then, I like to practice shooting. Much dry firing in my basement followed by shooting full loads on the range. I’ll add in practice with a 10 pound Winchester Model 52 .22. Offhand (unsupported standing) at 50 yards with a .22, I take pleasure in ringing a 4 inch hanging target.

Will the flatter trajectory of the Big Three .458’s be useful for dangerous game? If one desires to shoot their trophy buffalo at 100+ yards then certainly. I am a long range marksman but I don’t travel to Africa to shoot dangerous game at more than 50 yards, if I can close the distance. That’s what hunting is, isn’t it? Is any animal dangerous if more than 50 yards distant? A lion will simply look at humans as annoyance. Elephants can’t determine what people are at distance. Do buffalo charge from more than 50 yards? For my money, I don’t go to Africa to shoot dangerous game like I would a woodchuck at home.



The above stated, I admit killing a buffalo at 100 years because it would not cooperate for a closer shot. Of course one shot from my Trusty .458 Win and it took refuge to die after another 50 yards. My standard load for my .458 Win is 2150 fps muzzle velocity with a 470 gr Cutting Edge Safari Raptor, or 500 gr Cutting Edge solid for elephant. Last year for tuskless and zebra I shot a 420 / 450 gr Cutting Edge combination at 2300 fps. The performance was to my eyes the same as for the heavier bullets at 2150 fps.

So there’s my rambling for today. Logistics, energy, and effective range.
Shoot whatever rifle and cartridge that flips your trigger!

I have friends that have slain more trophies in Africa than I will ever see and they killed them all with a .375 H&H. I think their hunting skill and marksmanship (shot placement) contributed to their success!

The biggest plus for the Rigby is that you can walk into Safari Outdoors in Johannesburg and buy one off the shelf, if you have the $$$. I won’t lie: they were really pretty.

Also ammo is available there. I've even had a ph friend buy some Norma 450 Rigby brass from there that was on sale and had him bring it over to the US with him to SCI.

I had my 460 wby built on a cz 550 action that I had gotten off gunbroker for a steal of a deal, originally I had wanted a bigger .458 so that narrowed it down to the dakota, rigby and weatherby but then I looked at trying to source brass and dies and found that the wby was much easier to source so I decided to go with the wby and load it to the same levels as the rigby, its still a work in progress as i need iron sights or the new red dot system that hill country rifles just announced and a thread protector as i wont take the brake to africa