450 Rigby vs 460 Weatherby

[Mark458]

Novices argue over tactics, professionals discuss logistics. Military history shows lack of logistics planning and support leads to defeat such as both Napoleon and Hitler invading Russia, and Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

Paraphrasing for our passion,
Collectors and Devotees argue over their preference, experience favors logistic sustainment (availability). Unobtainium anything must be avoided!

Ammunition logistics include,

• Ammunition is readily available in one’s home country and country of hunt.
• Is that cartridge’s popularity waxing or waning? If it waning, one better stock up for several years supply.

Loading ammunition logistics for Africa hunting include,

• Is properly head stamped brass available?
• Are adequate bullets available?
• Are adequate powders and primers available?

I’ve spent more than a few years maintaining, supplying, procuring, and planning sustainment or in olden days’ terms, Integrated Logistics Support (ILS) for combat essential weapons systems. Of course I started as a farmboy where if machinery was inoperable good weather conditions might me missed resulting in loss of harvest. Having spare parts on hand was critical on the farm and to ensure high operational availability of combat systems.

Toward this subject, my years shooting and collecting vintage firearms which taught me, if the shot is critical for life, finances, or to win a trophy be it via targets of game animals, don’t mess around with being special. It’s the old keep it simple rule. What works and is it available?

I love guns like many of you readers. My logistic rule for buying rifles that I want to hunt with is can I obtain several hundred new cartridge cases? 200 to 300 cases should be a lifetime supply. For wildcat cartridges converted from popular cartridges such as the .416 Taylor, the available brass can be formed for practice rounds saving properly head stamped brass for international hunts.

Considering the big .458 cartridges .450 Dakota, Rigby, and .460 Weatherby, any will be excessively adequate for dangerous game. Owning a .450 Rigby I hate to admit it but the Weatherby may prove to be the most available brass a decade from now. Of course, I think the .458 Lott is perfectly adequate for dangerous game and that my Trusty .458 Win properly loaded hasn’t let me down.

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Going from logistics of brass to cartridge performance, the aforementioned Big Three .458 cartridges are really comparable to the .500 cartridges for dangerous game stopping power. Is the Lott a stopping rifle? Many PH’s use one if nothing more than rifle and ammunition availability. There’s logistics again.

Oh, if these .458’s aren’t comparable to a .500 Nitro, .500 Jeffery, or .505 Gibbs in stopping power, then why bother?

The .450 Dakota, Rigby, and .460 Weatherby, and larger bore rifles are adequate stopping rifles in the hands of a “good under pressure” marksman. Do most shooters need their power level with corresponding increased recoil? The following recoil table lists energy and recoil for the same weight rifles. I didn’t derive recoil for rifles heavier than 11.5 pounds. Ten percent more rifle weight will reduce felt recoil by 10%. If you must, at 13 pounds felt recoil will be 10% lower than for 11.5 pounds.

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Since I will NOT shoot a muzzle brake in Africa due to my tracker’s hearing, I find the .458 Win recoil healthy and that of the Lott gets my attention! My .450 Rigby doesn’t get shot as much as my other .458’s and you can guess why. But then, I like to practice shooting. Much dry firing in my basement followed by shooting full loads on the range. I’ll add in practice with a 10 pound Winchester Model 52 .22. Offhand (unsupported standing) at 50 yards with a .22, I take pleasure in ringing a 4 inch hanging target.

Will the flatter trajectory of the Big Three .458’s be useful for dangerous game? If one desires to shoot their trophy buffalo at 100+ yards then certainly. I am a long range marksman but I don’t travel to Africa to shoot dangerous game at more than 50 yards, if I can close the distance. That’s what hunting is, isn’t it? Is any animal dangerous if more than 50 yards distant? A lion will simply look at humans as annoyance. Elephants can’t determine what people are at distance. Do buffalo charge from more than 50 yards? For my money, I don’t go to Africa to shoot dangerous game like I would a woodchuck at home.

Small Woodchuck at 45 Yards with Heym 88B .458 Win, My Trusty .458​

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The above stated, I admit killing a buffalo at 100 years because it would not cooperate for a closer shot. Of course one shot from my Trusty .458 Win and it took refuge to die after another 50 yards. My standard load for my .458 Win is 2150 fps muzzle velocity with a 470 gr Cutting Edge Safari Raptor, or 500 gr Cutting Edge solid for elephant. Last year for tuskless and zebra I shot a 420 / 450 gr Cutting Edge combination at 2300 fps. The performance was to my eyes the same as for the heavier bullets at 2150 fps.

So there’s my rambling for today. Logistics, energy, and effective range.
Shoot whatever rifle and cartridge that flips your trigger!

I have friends that have slain more trophies in Africa than I will ever see and they killed them all with a .375 H&H. I think their hunting skill and marksmanship (shot placement) contributed to their success!

Good job on the woodchuck. Always use enough gun in case of a charge.

 

[Mark458]

The PH I hunted buffalo with last week just sent me this picture from Buffalo taken today. It was a second buffalo that was wounded during a hunt yesterday. Client hit it during a follow-up shot. Followed up today and luckily got him before he got them. PH uses a 458 win mag.

 

[skydiver386]

Well said Mark.

There are client hunter rifles and calibers and there are PH rifles and calibers. The 375's, 416's and 458 Win will remain popular as client rifles because they are available, priced moderately and recoil is within what most experienced shooters can handle. Their design purpose is to be carried, shot and used frequently by large numbers of hunters.

The hot 458's, 505's, XL Nitro Express and 577 T Rex will never be big sellers. They are not widely available, are outrageously expensive, and recoil far above what even seasoned shooters can handle. Their design purpose is for emergency use by a small number of extremely experienced client and Professional Hunters.

Christo Van Dewenter is a PH and good friend of mine that dearly loves the 450 Rigby and is an outspoken advocate for it. His brother in law Neal desperately wants a 450 Rigby to use as his stopping rifle. Christo loads his with 600gr bullets made in South Africa. He told me of a group of 3 clients that wanted to hunt Buff and Hippo and use his rifles, which were a 375 and the 450. At the shooting range the first shooter being the largest and most experienced shot the 450 Rigby off sticks well and used it to good effect on the hunt. The second shooter shot the Rigby, but decided the 375 was enough. The third hunter fired the Rigby and instantly shouted #@&+ THAT!

Hunters should use what they are comfortable shooting.

Far to many people have had a &@+# THAT moment for the really Big Bores to ever become popular.

 

[skydiver386]

Also ammo is available there. I've even had a ph friend buy some Norma 450 Rigby brass from there that was on sale and had him bring it over to the US with him to SCI.

And you didn't get enough for the rest of us?

Only thinking of yourself huh?

 

[Mark458]

And you didn't get enough for the rest of us?

Only thinking of yourself huh?

That does sound selfish doesn't it. Actually they only had 100 cases and I still have them and if someone absolutely had to have Norma brass I might be willing to part with them.

 

[BTP-KennethWRoyce]

The .450 Dakota, Rigby, and .460 Weatherby, and larger bore rifles are adequate stopping rifles in the hands of a “good under pressure” marksman. Do most shooters need their power level with corresponding increased recoil?

Mark A Ouellette, I didn't choose the .450 Dakota for its 500gr/2500+fps MV, but that it could deliver 2400fps without powder compression or pressure issues. Its case volume is ideal for that (and without a belt). It's even ample enough for 500gr Barnes TSX at 2400fps without compression. That is what I wanted...who wouldn't?

While the .458 Lott is certainly adequate at 2300fps, such is its max load. Although you and others have proven that the .458 Win Mag (if very well handled) can suffice, 465gr/2150fps doesn't provide the power margin I prefer, especially with 500gr.

Simply put, for an heirloom grade big bore DG rifle, I didn't want to "make do" on its caliber. In a world of frequent forced compromises, it pleases me to own what I considered the ideal caliber for my needs. (The .450 Rigby was a very close second. Its cases wear out more quickly due to the sharp shoulder, but I could have lived with that.) With the .450 Dakota I can use any bullet I desire (even out to 600gr), handload to any velocity I'd like, and carry it for hours in any hot climate. I don't have to use the second-heaviest bullet, a long powder drop tube to reduce compression, or (metaphorically speaking) keep my ammo in a cool box until I'm climbing down from the Rover.

_____
Thanks for the current information; .450 Dakota brass availability has certainly become dire than since my rifle's acquisition.

However, on the first page of my cursory web search I found at Grafs new unprimed .450 Dakota brass online for $87.75 (bag of 20, $4.39 per piece). The backorder delay was unspecified.

Also from Grafs, .460 Weatherby brass was $5.90 per piece (34% higher), though out of stock with no backorder option.

.450 Rigby brass I found for $155/20 cases ($7.75 each), from two suppliers.

One can also form practice .450 Dakota cases from .416 Rigby brass (FL sizing die, fire-forming, etc.), saving proper .450 headstamped cases for Africa (not that I've ever encountered trouble at the border with headstamps).

That the .450 Dakota hasn't really caught fire is not the fault of the cartridge itself. Don Allen's demise followed by the company's takeover by a blatantly dishonorable fellow, Remington's bankruptcy, etc. hobbled a very fine product line. African procurement by PHs became unrealistic; I get it. For them, the .450 Ribgy and .460 Wby make logistical sense. I get that, too.

I've enough cases to .450 Dakota hunt a lifetime's worth. If I ever do run out, I can form more from .416 Rigby brass. Such is the risk, the cost, I'm willing to pay to enjoy a rifle and cartridge that need no excuses. That "the world" usually stoops to the Buy now! mediocre is par for that course. I'm not a gun snob, but I do recommend having at least one unalloyed joy in your gun room.

In summary, the .450 Dakota brass situation has become expensive and inconvenient, but not impossible or even infeasible. Is it worth "going there" vs. the .450 Rigby or .460 Wby? For many/most hunters, probably not, and certainly not at all but for a few PHs. Perhaps the new owner Parkwest Arms can revive the M76 and its cartridges? As Jeff Cooper often quipped, "It is furious to hope! " That the .416 Rigby was resurrected from the dead gives one hope.

 

[Tex .416]

Kenneth,

I love my .330 Dakota. I almost sold it, but thankfully my wife stopped me. Sure would be great if Parkwest could obtain brass. I tried to commission a run of .330 Dakota brass from a couple of manufacturers, but they had zero interest at any price.

fwiw - ammoseek.com is a super useful search engine for ammo and reloading supplies.

It only displays in stock inventory, no back orders. Also, it may not pick up everything other search engines might find, but it is a very useful starting point.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Mark A Ouellette, I didn't choose the .450 Dakota for its 500gr/2500+fps MV, but that it could deliver 2400fps without powder compression or pressure issues. Its case volume is ideal for that (and without a belt). It's even ample enough for 500gr Barnes TSX at 2400fps without compression. That is what I wanted...who wouldn't?

While the .458 Lott is certainly adequate at 2300fps, such is its max load. Although you and others have proven that the .458 Win Mag (if very well handled) can suffice, 465gr/2150fps doesn't provide the power margin I prefer, especially with 500gr.

Simply put, for an heirloom grade big bore DG rifle, I didn't want to "make do" on its caliber. In a world of frequent forced compromises, it pleases me to own what I considered the ideal caliber for my needs. (The .450 Rigby was a very close second. Its cases wear out more quickly due to the sharp shoulder, but I could have lived with that.) With the .450 Dakota I can use any bullet I desire (even out to 600gr), handload to any velocity I'd like, and carry it for hours in any hot climate. I don't have to use the second-heaviest bullet, a long powder drop tube to reduce compression, or (metaphorically speaking) keep my ammo in a cool box until I'm climbing down from the Rover.

_____
Thanks for the current information; .450 Dakota brass availability has certainly become dire than since my rifle's acquisition.

However, on the first page of my cursory web search I found at Grafs new unprimed .450 Dakota brass online for $87.75 (bag of 20, $4.39 per piece). The backorder delay was unspecified.

Also from Grafs, .460 Weatherby brass was $5.90 per piece (34% higher), though out of stock with no backorder option.

.450 Rigby brass I found for $155/20 cases ($7.75 each), from two suppliers.

One can also form practice .450 Dakota cases from .416 Rigby brass (FL sizing die, fire-forming, etc.), saving proper .450 headstamped cases for Africa (not that I've ever encountered trouble at the border with headstamps).

That the .450 Dakota hasn't really caught fire is not the fault of the cartridge itself. Don Allen's demise followed by the company's takeover by a blatantly dishonorable fellow, Remington's bankruptcy, etc. hobbled a very fine product line. African procurement by PHs became unrealistic; I get it. For them, the .450 Ribgy and .460 Wby make logistical sense. I get that, too.

I've enough cases to .450 Dakota hunt a lifetime's worth. If I ever do run out, I can form more from .416 Rigby brass. Such is the risk, the cost, I'm willing to pay to enjoy a rifle and cartridge that need no excuses. That "the world" usually stoops to the Buy now! mediocre is par for that course. I'm not a gun snob, but I do recommend having at least one unalloyed joy in your gun room.

In summary, the .450 Dakota brass situation has become expensive and inconvenient, but not impossible or even infeasible. Is it worth "going there" vs. the .450 Rigby or .460 Wby? For many/most hunters, probably not, and certainly not at all but for a few PHs. Perhaps the new owner Parkwest Arms can revive the M76 and its cartridges? As Jeff Cooper often quipped, "It is furious to hope! " That the .416 Rigby was resurrected from the dead gives one hope.

That's great! As I posted above, Whatever flips your trigger!

 

[BTP-KennethWRoyce]

Tex, I understand loyalty to your .330 Dakota; it's a fabulous round.

Thanks for the ammoseek.com link; I was unaware of them.

 

[curt672]

Not sure what the hard on is about having a belt ??? There have been Millions of cartridges made with a belt ?? can someone enlighten me? Or at least blow some smoke up my ass --- hehehhe

 

[grand veneur]

I cannot also understand it either. Perhaps it comes down from a certain sense of aesthetics, because the belt does not always give the cartridge an elegant design. That aside, I use belted cartridges for decades without any issues.

It is a well established fact that few cartridges actually require a belt. Initially, the purpose was not reinforcement, but ensuring that the cartridges with tapered case shapes were properly maintained in the chamber. No one trusted the extractor from a CRF action to hold such a cartridge in the chamber. This refers primarily to the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum and the cartridge 300 H&H Magnum, as well as other similar high-performance cartridges of the time. Following the success of the two cartridges mentioned, particularly the 300 H&H in the 1930s, the belt became a trademark of such cartridges.

Weatherby cartridges would not have needed it, because due to their design they could have be considered as cartridges with headspaces on the shoulder.

 

[skydiver386]

Several reasons the belt is disliked.

First, it makes handloading slightly more complicated. Since headspace in the chamber is from the bolt face to the front of the belt, but sizing the case in the reloading die is on the shoulder, it can cause issues. The problem most often seen is a bulge in the case just ahead of the magnum belt.

Second, it increases the diameter of the cartridge which reduces magazine capacity.

Third, it can cause feeding issues in some magazine designs.

I have heard some extractor/ejector designs of double rifles the belt on the 375 H&H can give trouble during a rapid reload, but I can't give details as I'm not that familiar with doubles.

Most cartridge designs omit the magnum belt because as others have pointed out, cases without a sharp shoulder required it, but modern designs with a prominent shoulder do not.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

The .460 Weatherby Magnum is one of the finest .458” calibers to be placed on the market. The case capacity actually achieves advertised ballistics allowing the hunter of dangerous game to have confidence they are getting what they paid for in factory ammunition. The .460 has been alive and well since the 1950’s and it’s not going away. Historically sportsmen complain factory ammo does not meet advertised velocity when they run it over a chronograph. Now, in the Woke Era some sportsmen complain when the 460 Wby achieves advertised velocity……… higher impact velocity is a plus with monometal bullets. From a handloaders perspective the .460 Wby does everything that can be asked from a .458” caliber sporting cartridge; component brass made by Norma is highest quality and readily available, the .460 is very flexible regarding velocity ranges for handloaders, and there is no .458” bullet weight or length that the .460 Wby can’t handle and the big .460 is MOA. Roy Weatherby did sportsmen a good turn when he placed this .460 Weatherby Magnum on the market.

Note: The .416 Rigby has a 45 degree shoulder. I have .416 Rigby brass I have reloaded 15+ times and it performs no differently than a shallow shoulder cartridge.

 

[BTP-KennethWRoyce]

There are client hunter rifles and calibers and there are PH rifles and calibers. The 375's, 416's and 458 Win will remain popular as client rifles because they are available, priced moderately and recoil is within what most experienced shooters can handle. Their design purpose is to be carried, shot and used frequently by large numbers of hunters.

The hot 458's, 505's, XL Nitro Express and 577 T Rex will never be big sellers. They are not widely available, are outrageously expensive, and recoil far above what even seasoned shooters can handle. Their design purpose is for emergency use by a small number of extremely experienced client and Professional Hunters.

A maxim I believe in for both self-defense and DG is "Hit the hardest blow you can control." While my previous Model 70 Classic .416 Rem Mag with 400gr/2400fps was perfectly respectable for buff, I wanted an indisputably charge-stopping level of caliber/power, hence the .450 Dakota, which I can comfortably handle. (If I were a working PH, I might even want a bit more in a .470 Mbogo or even a .500.)

Sure, one can get by with a 9mm for daily handgun carry and .375H&H for DG, and if that's one's comfortable maximum, then so be it. But, if one can handle more, then one should consider wielding more to better the odds of success.

I'll continue to speak up for the .450 Dakota as a magnum-action case with no vices. The paucity of its market share is not its fault. "The play was a success, but the audience was a failure" as Oscar Wilde quipped. Due to recoil concerns, DG hunters generally settle for <5000 ft-lb MEs, when with a bit of training and practice >6000 ft-lb could be within their comfort level.

Several great cartridges have limped along until rescued: the .35 Whelen, the .338-08, the 10mm, etc. If Ruger, or Remington or CZ etc. offered the .450 Dakota in their rifles, it'd foment a deserved new popularity. If commercial rifles offered both .450 Dak and .450 Rigby, I believe the Rigby would slowly lose ground (because of its 45° shoulder).

Several reasons the belt is disliked.

...Most cartridge designs omit the magnum belt because as others have pointed out, cases without a sharp shoulder required it, but modern designs with a prominent shoulder do not.

Well written, amen! Belted case are not an anathema, but they are an outdated relic. Even Weatherby has moved on from the belt, as Boddington explained:

The world’s last belted magnum appears to be the 6.5-.300 Weatherby Magnum, introduced in 2016. Since then, even Weatherby has shifted away from the belt, introducing their 6.5 RPM (Rebated Precision Magnum) in 2019, following up with their .338 RPM in 2022.

 

[dogcat1]

To answer the original question about the 450 Rigby vs 460 Wby - not much difference. You will still need your teeth straightened and a shoulder replacement by the time you get good enough not to flinch.
Stay with the mere mortals amoung us and usa trusted .375 HH or at most a .416 Rigby...

Leave the big boys for the big boys.....

 

[BTP-KennethWRoyce]

To answer the original question about the 450 Rigby vs 460 Wby - not much difference. You will still need your teeth straightened and a shoulder replacement by the time you get good enough not to flinch.
Stay with the mere mortals amoung us and usa trusted .375 HH or at most a .416 Rigby...

Leave the big boys for the big boys.....

Oh, c'mon, 500gr/2400fps isn't all that bad. Now, 2600+fps would be a teeth rattler!

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

If Ruger, or Remington or CZ etc. offered the .450 Dakota in their rifles, it'd foment a deserved new popularity. If commercial rifles offered both .450 Dak and .450 Rigby, I believe the Rigby would slowly lose ground (because of its 45° shoulder).

If, If, If……..If “ifs and buts” were candies and nuts you’d have a merrier Christmas……….

Ruger, Remington, or CZ WILL NOT offer a .450 Dakota or a .450 Rigby because they are not economically feasible. The .416 Rigby has been with us since 1911 and it’s not losing ground. Period.

 

[Mark458]

If, If, If……..If “ifs and buts” were candies and nuts you’d have a merrier Christmas……….

Ruger, Remington, or CZ WILL NOT offer a .450 Dakota or a .450 Rigby because they are not economically feasible. The .416 Rigby has been with us since 1911 and it’s not losing ground. Period.

CZ did offer a 450 Rigby. I know this for a fact because I just sold one a few hours ago to a nice gentleman going on a double elephant and buffalo hunt with CMS next year in Zimbabwe. I know Buzz will be happy he stepped up in caliber from his 375 he used last year.

I met him at the range this morning. He was concerned about the recoil, but was plesently surprised that it seemed no worse to him than his 375. 500 grain solids at 2375 fps. Bought it on the spot along with 125 rounds of loaded ammunition as well as 100 new cases. He should be set for a long time.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

“Did” is the operative word. And that was through the CZ Safari Custom.

 

[Mark458]

“Did” is the operative word. And that was through the CZ Safari Custom.

Unfortunately it's "Did" because they stopped making their 550 line of rifles.

It was not a custom line gun. Just a standard 550 Magnum. It just wasn't as popular as the Lott or the 505 Gibbs if someone wanted to step up in power.