404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

Ontario Hunter said:

404J fits neatly into standard action Mauser whereas 416 Rigby is typically fitted into magnum length action. The advantage to standard length action is shorter bolt throw for cycling ( = faster cycling and less likely to short stroke) and lighter weight rifle ( = easier to carry but less easy on recoil). The 404 cartridge without an abrupt shoulder is famous for slick feeding. Ballistically they are both comparable or comparable enough.

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PCC600 said:

And yet as soon as the Rigby licence on Magnum Mauser lapsed in about 1912 - Jeffery started using the Magnum action and Mauser Type A 404J rifles were always built on Magnum actions . I do not think using the Standard Mauser action has much to recommend it . They were cheaper than Magnum actions but I doubt they were better .

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Ontario Hunter said:

Jeffery switched to magnum action because the bottom metal didn't have to be redesigned ( = time and $$$). For 404 a magnum action has no strength advantage over standard action. Even 375 H&H and 416 Rigby could be built on standard action, but it required rebuilding bottom metal and relieving some metal from the locking ring (but still plenty strong enough). Remember, during the interwar years magnum action production all but dried up and the big name British makers were forced to fall back on using standard actions to fill big bore orders. Ruark's Harry Selby shot a standard length 416 Rigby ... built by Rigby.

Making guns cheaper is "better" if nothing important is sacrificed to obtain it. A standard length 404 Jeffery can be just as beautiful as a magnum action 404. And there is no doubt the two actions are equal in strength or at least equal enough. The major difference is bolt throw and it is hard not to give standard action the advantage in that department. I don't own a magnum Mauser but I simply cannot fathom how one could possibly cycle any smoother or quicker than the standard Mauser 404 I built. I've posted a video of me cycling dummy rounds and it is genuinely effortless and flawless to operate.

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Rule 303 said:

You forget there are new bullets now, the mono metals. To get the best performance out of these (longer for weight) bullets the 404, 375H&H,416 Rigby need the magnum length action. Yes you could seat the bullets deeper into the case but you lose powder space so less powder, maybe not in the 416 Rigby.

In the interwar years Rigby and others used P14/M17 actions that with a little tweaking and no removal of metal handle those cases with the mono's very well. So they had access to, in all effects a magnum length action. Tweaking was normally the mag box, rails and feed ramp.

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Ontario Hunter said:

Jeffery switched to magnum action because the bottom metal didn't have to be redesigned ( = time and $$$). For 404 a magnum action has no strength advantage over standard action. Even 375 H&H and 416 Rigby could be built on standard action, but it required rebuilding bottom metal and relieving some metal from the locking ring (but still plenty strong enough). Remember, during the interwar years magnum action production all but dried up and the big name British makers were forced to fall back on using standard actions to fill big bore orders. Ruark's Harry Selby shot a standard length 416 Rigby ... built by Rigby.

Making guns cheaper is "better" if nothing important is sacrificed to obtain it. A standard length 404 Jeffery can be just as beautiful as a magnum action 404. And there is no doubt the two actions are equal in strength or at least equal enough. The major difference is bolt throw and it is hard not to give standard action the advantage in that department. I don't own a magnum Mauser but I simply cannot fathom how one could possibly cycle any smoother or quicker than the standard Mauser 404 I built. I've posted a video of me cycling dummy rounds and it is genuinely effortless and flawless to operate.

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PCC600 said:

For the life of me I cannot see how milling away part of the action improves a rifle . Doubt it makes it cheaper either . Your timing is wrong about the use of standard actions for Magnum calibres . The issue related to zero availability of Magnums post WW2 and zero availability of Magnums due to the Rigby licence pre WW2 .

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Rule 303 said:

You forget there are new bullets now, the mono metals. To get the best performance out of these (longer for weight) bullets the 404, 375H&H,416 Rigby need the magnum length action. Yes you could seat the bullets deeper into the case but you lose powder space so less powder, maybe not in the 416 Rigby.

In the interwar years Rigby and others used P14/M17 actions that with a little tweaking and no removal of metal handle those cases with the mono's very well. So they had access to, in all effects a magnum length action. Tweaking was normally the mag box, rails and feed ramp.

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Ontario Hunter said:

I load 400 gr mono Barnes bullets with 80 gr Accurate 4350 and they are running about 2200 fps. Dies are set for standard OAL. They shoot well. Seems to be enough room in the case. I'm not interested in gassing up my 404 to 416 ballistics. What's the point? I think 450 gr solids might be a tight fit but those are overkill for everything in my opinion. I'll never shoot them.

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Rule 303 said:

Simply put, that satisfies you but not most others. Each to their own.

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Ontario Hunter said:

In fact, many of the big bore cartridges require inert filler added to powder to avoid voids in the case. Voids, especially near the primer, can lead to inconsistent burning from cartridge to cartridge which affects accuracy.

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Ontario Hunter said:

"Most others" who reload don't have a problem with compressed loads in large caliber cartridges burning extruded powder (e.g. 4350). My moderate 30-06 loads fill the case with A4350 well above where the bottom of the bullet is seated. Not a problem. In fact, many of the big bore cartridges require inert filler added to powder to avoid voids in the case. Voids, especially near the primer, can lead to inconsistent burning from cartridge to cartridge which affects accuracy.

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