404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

[Russ16]

Again, no one said it will eliminate it. Reduce the potential to inadvertantly short stroke is not the same as eliminate it. In an unfamiliar threatening situation sometimes some folks tend to get in a hurry. Especially if a person, like myself, has become accustomed to shooting a standard action (I.e. sixty years hunting deer, elk, and moose with a Springfield 03A3), suddenly switching to magnum length could conceivably lead to short stroking a less familiar longer bolt throw in the heat of the moment. I would guesstimate the potential to short stroke a magnum would also increase if cycling from the shoulder (which is not how I shoot).

Just accept that people have different preferences. You like standard actions. Other like magnum. Personally I like magnum actions because the knots open to is easier to load. I would build every gun on a magnum action if I could. Even much smaller calibers. If all your guns are magnum actions you won’t shirt strike you’re used to the length.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

The thing I don’t like about the 404 is the lack of shoulder for proper head spacing. Yet it has had a long successful career so it must not be too much of an issue.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The thing I don’t like about the 404 is the lack of shoulder for proper head spacing. Yet it has had a long successful career so it must not be too much of an issue.

Yeah, one needs to have everything in perfect harmony. Gotta pay attention when setting up the loading dies. I couldn't get my 404 project to snap over. Spent better part of a week fighting with it. Turned out RWS brass I had was short in length and consequently dies were set up wrong. Fire formed them and started over with dies set for proper length Hornady brass. That damn RWS stuff would still not consistently snap over. On close inspection I discovered rim thickness was inconsistent. Hornady brass was initially also not snapping over. Cartridges were being shoved into chamber ahead of bolt face. Then I determined the extractor had WAY too much spring tension (had to pry it off the bolt with screwdriver!). Once I relieved enough tension to install and remove extractor with only finger pressure, snap over was consistent (for Hornady brass) and cycling was very smooth (cartridges jumping onto bolt face from magazine much better). The 404's gentle shoulder was thought to be necessary for its maximum length to feed properly in standard action. And in 1905 the belted case concept still had not been perfected.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Duane Wiebe built a lot of 375 that way. Doesn't require carving away much on a 98 Mauser. P14 and 1917 already had it carved away at the factory. Rigby built many 416 on standard action after the war. Cartridge is so long that they can't be ejected unless some of the locking ring is removed to make ejection port long enough. The bolt lug doesn't lock against that part of the ring anyway.

The rear ring/bridge can be thinned a bit on the inside of ejection side to allow fatter magnum cartridges to eject in standard action. Don't take too much or the extractor will jump its track. A magnum length extractor can fix it if that happens. A Dremel tool with grinding wheel did the job for me. Some makers will machine the rear bridge back and change extractors. Probably makes loading the magazine a bit easier. 404 just fits without needing to remove anything from the locking ring. It should: Jeffery designed the cartridge for standard length action.

Ok….
You are referring to the front receiver ring

Gumpy

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

To get the 404J or the 416R to fit a standard action it is best to relieve/open the action at the trigger end of the loading port. But there is a limit on how far you can go. Then a limited amount can be taken be taken at the front of the port which in effect takes material from the lower locking lug (not to outer diameter). Roy Dunlap and others have documented this mod. Ontario was NOT advocating the mod.

It’s ok, he was just using confusing terminology, the 404 I built ( not had others do it for me) on a standard action is documented on this site somewhere
Gumpy

 

[IvW]

Short stroking only occurs when the one handling the rifle does it wrong. Length of action will not eliminate that.....

Short stroking only occurs when the one handling the rifle does it wrong. Length of action will not reduce the potential.....

You either know how to reload a rifle correctly or not. Under stress or not, dg or not...
Very simple....the rifle cannot short stroke itself only the one handling it can cause the short stroke.....

 

[grand veneur]

I use standard Mauser 98 actions as also Mauser magnum actions for various cartridges. I don't quite understand how one could prefer a standard Mauser 98 action to a Mauser magnum action for some cartridges. Any cartridge with an OAL exceeding 81mm is better suited to a Mauser magnum action. The slightly longer bolt body really does not interfere with when feeding.

 

[Rule 303]

Short stroking only occurs when the one handling the rifle does it wrong. Length of action will not reduce the potential.....

You either know how to reload a rifle correctly or not. Under stress or not, dg or not...
Very simple....the rifle cannot short stroke itself only the one handling it can cause the short stroke.....

I can understand how the length of action may come into play with short stroke if you are used to nothing but short actions and have used them a lot and do not carry out due diligence when buying a longer action. By this I mean practice and practice hard with it under a timer till you are confident with it.
Just my view on things.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ok….
You are referring to the front receiver ring

Gumpy

That's the one the bolt locks into. As opposed to rear ring that nothing locks into.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

That's the one the bolt locks into. As opposed to rear ring that nothing locks into.

Do you know the difference between "c" ring and "h" ring and mausers have a third lug in the rear receiver ring, carry on now.
Gumpy

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It’s ok, he was just using confusing terminology, the 404 I built ( not had others do it for me) on a standard action is documented on this site somewhere
Gumpy

I did not have someone else build my 404. The barrel was made by by Lija and installed by a gunsmith because I didn't have a lathe to do the head spacing. The rest was done by me. Wait ... almost forgot a local machinist opened the bolt face. Again, because I didn't have a lathe and didn't see any sense in buying one to build one rifle. I'm sure if I'd had access to a lathe I could have finished the entire project.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Do you know the difference between "c" ring and "h" ring and mausers have a third lug in the rear receiver ring, carry on now.
Gumpy

The third lug is emergency only. It doesn't function unless the gun blows up. It doesn't lock into anything when the bolt is closed. However, the locking lugs can be lapped to bring emergency lug in contact with rear ring but not really necessary for the cartridges we are discussing. Gee, I thought you would have known this. Well, now you do. Glad to have educated you. Carry on.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I did not have someone else build my 404. The barrel was made by by Lija and installed by a gunsmith because I didn't have a lathe to do the head spacing. The rest was done by me. Wait ... almost forgot a local machinist opened the bolt face. Again, because I didn't have a lathe and didn't see any sense in buying one to build one rifle. I'm sure if I'd had access to a lathe I could have finished the entire project.

Not sure of the relevance, but good for you, , you’ve told everyone about it enough times and told people who did it for a living what to do.

The third lug is emergency only. It doesn't function unless the gun blows up. The locking lugs can be lapped to bring emergency lug in contact with rear ring but not really necessary for the cartridges we are discussing.

you should not really be touching the main lugs enough to make the third lug touch, good way to wear through the case hardening, and you are the one that said there are no lugs in the rear receiver ring, so make up your mind
Gumpy

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not sure of the relevance, but good for you, , you’ve told everyone about it enough times and told people who did it for a living what to do.


you should not really be touching the main lugs enough to make the third lug touch, good way to wear through the case hardening, and you are the one that said there are no lugs in the rear receiver ring, so make up your mind
Gumpy

No. Read it again. I said nothing locks into rear ring on standard Mauser. And nothing does. If the third lug isn't touching the ring when the bolt is closed (and it's not), then it's not "locked" into the receiver. I did not say anywhere that a Mauser bolt only has two lugs. Obviously, I don't advocate lapping the main locking lugs to add an extra locking lug into rear rear ring because for these calibers it would be redundant. That's what I said. I know it is done (and you would know it too if you'd done your homework). Presumably those who do it know what they're doing and know how to deal with hardness issues.

 

[Rule 303]

Do you know the difference between "c" ring and "h" ring and mausers have a third lug in the rear receiver ring, carry on now.
Gumpy

Grumps, I do not know what they are. Not being smart I am just ignorant to this.

 

[Jack Stevens]

404 just fits without needing to remove anything from the locking ring. It should: Jeffery designed the cartridge for standard length action.

Jeffrey designed the .404 cartridge for serious DG hunters and indigenous African game-department employees. The envisioned platform was an affordable rifle of the same size and weight as a typical .375 on a standard action.

Rigby designed the .416 for rich guys with big bucks to drop on elegant rifles using premium magnum actions. Yeah, their Rigbys might see a DG hunt once in a while, but they much prefer stalking East African haunts like The Thorn Tree Cafe where aspiring outdoor writers “shoot” whiskeys and swap stories about safaris they’ve never been on.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Jeffrey designed the .404 cartridge for serious DG hunters and indigenous African game-department employees. The envisioned platform was an affordable rifle of the same size and weight as a typical .375 on a standard action.

Rigby designed the .416 for rich guys with big bucks to drop on elegant rifles using premium magnum actions. Yeah, their Rigbys might see a DG hunt once in a while, but they much prefer stalking East African haunts like The Thorn Tree Cafe where aspiring outdoor writers “shoot” whiskeys and swap stories about safaris they’ve never been on.

404 was born in 1905 (possibly earlier). 375 H&H and 416 Rigby were not developed until after 1910. Therefore 404 Jeffery was not designed to emulate 375 in a standard length action ... because 375 did not exist when 404J was developed. Rigby had proprietary access to the first magnum length Mauser actions from about 1899 until 1912. Rigby exclusively had access to an early Mauser design with longer bolt throw and sloping magazine to handle a popular rimmed double rifle cartridge. Rigby then introduced 416 in 1910 when presumably the sloping magazine was abandoned for conventional. This new magnum action was made available by Mauser to the other London gunmakers (Jeffery and H&H) in 1912. So 404 was designed for standard action Mauser because that's all Jeffery had to work with. Though the magnum length action was eventually available to Jeffery after 1912, the company would be inclined to continue to still use standard action (but not exclusively) for this caliber because it worked well in a standard action and standard actions were more accessible and cheaper. Cheaper production was especially important for govt orders to supply African colonial game control officers.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

The thing I don’t like about the 404 is the lack of shoulder for proper head spacing. Yet it has had a long successful career so it must not be too much of an issue.

The 8 degree .404 shoulder angle is not an issue for factory ammo intended to be fired one time. Like the .300 H&H the shallow shoulder is of concern to handloaders. The .404 should only be partial neck sized when reloading case. Full length case sizing will lead to case separation at case head.

 

[DaddyFlip]

I don't have one but I like the 404J. It's long neck makes it well-suited to break action doubles (even if extraction/ejection is not ideal) and bolt guns (even if head spacing is not ideal). It sure is a sexy beast in either platform.

This short stroking thing is a moot point if the shooter works the bolt to the stop as intended. I'm sure there's folks out there who have developed the muscle memory to pull the bolt back only so far under stress-free conditions and maybe even "under stress"; but under stress, the fine motor skills degrade. That's why there's a stop. Short stroking has nothing to do with action length and all to do with training, overcoming stress factors, and working the bolt correctly.

 

[IvW]

Eaxactly.....