Another 458 Win Mag thread

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

For whatever reason I have never fired a .458 Mag in my life. I have observed many elephant shot with .458 W. Mag. They all died, some quicker than others depending on the skill of the man pulling the trigger.

A few days ago I was approached by our local rural council and was told that they have budgeted for 4 rifles for problem animal control. They asked me what kind of rifle they should buy and in what Caliber. In the past CZ has always been first choice. As we all know they are no longer available. When one of their rangers need a rifle they just grab one from the safe. Their first choice .416 Rigby, second choice, .458 Win Mag, last choice .375 H&H. This narrows our choices down to one rifle Zastava and one caliber, .458 Win Mag.

Why that make and caliber? Remember there is a arms embargo on Zimbabwe. Firearms, ammo or parts cannot be imported into Zim from the West. That means the rifles will have to come from the East. As far as I know that pretty much narrows it down to one mfg. Considering who is pulling the trigger and the fact that they usually have no back up. I believe the Zastava (which only make the D.G. rifle in .458 Win Mag is the only option. There budget for four rifles will only be able to buy two Zastava.

 

[Safari Dave]

If I could only have one choice between the .458 Win in a bolt action bolt action and the .470 NE in a double, I would go with the .458.

I'm not a fan of scoped double rifles, but put a detachable low power variable scope on a bolt-action .458 Win with modern ammo, and you are perfectly suited for any of the big, dangerous stuff.

 

[Piet-Vis]

Pieter …. Care to tell us what you have used on the past elephant hunts?

As for the .458 bad reputation, from what I have read it was a mix of what other members have said- bad bullets, poor powder/ powder caking.

Please do us all a favor and post pics of the Super Grade .458 if you end up making the purchase.

Hi DeeWayne

Let me unpack some thoughts here
There are only two gun shops in Bots and Hornady is the Ammo that you can reliably get, at an affordable price. I'm fairly certain that most of the ele's that are shot in Bots are with Hornady DGS. I have not heard any of the local hunters or PHs criticize the performance of their solids. My personal experience of them is good, we have recovered quite a few solids from elephant skulls and none of them was deformed. I have found one solid exiting an elephant's neck tail-end first, but curiously it seemed as if the bullet line of flight was straight.
I was incredibly fortunate enough to have been on several hunts as a backup shot and have had a few bulls of my own. It's fair game after the first guy pulls the trigger, according to the way we hunt, so everybody gets a chance and you greatly reduce the chances of having a wounded elephant roaming around the villages. Hunting ele's without an old leather-faced PH that keeps the nerves calm is pretty exciting stuff!
I used a 375 with 380-grain Woodleighs on my first few hunts, and although they seem to penetrate well and are in theory close behind the .40's it still feels a bit more reassuring if you can stick your pinky down the barrel of your gun. I did the rest of my hunts with my very elegant and pointable Blaser R93 416 Rem. It's a gorgeous gun and its action is incredibly fast. Too fast actually, as it is bloody difficult to put a bullet in the right place on a rapidly departing (or approaching!!) elephant when your nerves are up. I think the 416 Rem is an ideal bolt action rifle. The only reason I won't hunt with the gun in Zambia is dear Africa's strange gun laws. Besides that, do I really need to explain why I need another, bigger gun?
I don't know much practice the average hunter puts in with his double, and like I say - when the red fog of war descends after the first shot goes off it's muscle memory that counts, not the name engraved on the barrel. The last bull I shot turned so quickly to face me in the split second before the shot went off that I thought I fluffed a side-brain shot. I actually looked for the entry wound between the eye and the earhole and was flabbergasted when there was nothing. It took me minutes before I could visualize the sequence of events in which the bull turned, looked down at me from high above and awfully close. I shot him below the brain, with no apparent effect. I broke his hip when he was departing and finished him off while he was on his side.
I think that the ability to take measured, calculated shots when the heat is up is what elephant hunting is all about, not caliber.
That said, I am only human and I am impressed by the ability of a friend 458 Lott to change an elephant's mind. I don't believe in magic and consequently don't think any caliber can put a bull elephant down just because you shoot a 550-grain bullet at 2300 fps into the 1-ton skulls of an old, smooth padded Botswana giant. But, I do want a 500-grain bullet in my chamber the next time an elephant looks down on me. Maybe I won't be impressed and go back to my german mistress.
I bought the gun, it's one of the only 1226 x Winchester Pre-64 African Super Grade 458 Win Mag rifles that was ever made. He (it's not a she like my Blaser) was sadly refurbished when the previous owner thought he would get a better price for the gun if the barrel was blue, nice, and shiny..

My question is still to be answered, why is it that those who oppose the 458 Win Mag do not crucify the 470 NE as well?

 

[deewayne2003]

Pieter,

I was speaking about the older Winchester and Remington ammunition of the past; 25+ years ago I remember reading comments in gun magazines from here in the U.S.A. that bemoaned the poor bullet construction and powder issues, and one article even claimed that some of the Winchester factory loads had powder that was so tightly compressed that the bullets would eventually be pushed out of the casings ..... I have no idea if that is true or not but it certainly stuck in the minds of people and as the old saying goes "You only get one chance to make a first impression" and it seems people held onto their bad opinions of the .458Win; justified or not.

You mention Hornady Ammo and I am glad to hear you speaking well of an American ammo company; as I have heard plenty of people on this forum complain about Hornady dangerous game ammo - Most of those complaints being about the NON Bonded soft points.

As for your question.....

"why is it that those who oppose the 458 Win Mag do not crucify the 470 NE as well?"

I think this has to do with the romantic feelings of old Africa and british doubles; it's much easier for people to turn their nose up at the American made .458win and the fire of hatred was fueled by the ammunition issues of the old days.

Personally, I have zero experience with elephant hunting and have never been to Africa; but it is a dream of mine and I have a .470ne double rifle that I hope to one day take an elephant with. It's a Sabatti which is looked down upon by many double rifle shooters.

Also, Thank you for posting the pic of your new .458 Super Grade Safari as it is another one of my dream rifles and I hope to have one myself some day.

 

[Forrest Halley]

My question is still to be answered, why is it that those who oppose the 458 Win Mag do not crucify the 470 NE as well?

Because it is chambered in double rifles and crucified at the extraordinary peril of the critic. The champions and disciples will emerge from the cyber woodwork like zombies and will make your brain hurt. They will somehow attempt to invalidate the lesser sectional density with some oddly contorted frontal area argument and attempt to convince you and again themselves that it is somehow more decisive in action on dangerous game. The cost of equipment and human nature combine to form a very formidable defense of the cartridge lest embarrassment should take hold and lead to the deadly buyers remorse. Good luck Pontius Pilate!

 

[Badboymelvin]

I have reload that I have chronographed with a Labradar at the range. 458 Win Mag with 450 and 480 Gr peregrine copper monometal bullets (ie longer than standard so less powder space) at the following : 450 Gr- 2280 fps,480 gr- 2250 fps, @ Badboymelvin has plenty of reloads with Woodleighs that comfortable make 2150 fps with 500 gr conventionals and one other person chrono'd Hornadly factory ammo with 500 gr at 2180 fps or so. That will open the next can of worms on Hornady solids but my brother has used them in his 416 rigby to take 10 + elephant so.....

People will tell you it cannot be done but they have never tried, never chrono'd a round- The facts are there-buried in long rants if you are willing to dig through threads on this forum.

Hi Nhoro,

People who know me on here know I have a real soft spot for the .458 and I have actually owned 5 of them over the years.
Like you said, ln that time I have worked out some good loads for it.

I've told this story before but when I obtained my first .458 a CZ550 with the hogsback stock, I was actually going to ream it to the .458 Lott.
I was only ever after 2150fps with a 500gn projectile and I achieved it quite easily with the standard .458 so I left it as is.
Over the years playing with it in various rifles with various loads, I developed a real respect for it and what it can do.
It has eventually become my favourite round and I do most of my deer hunting with it - with full-power loads.

I have no experience with hunting buffalo or elephant and I have never claimed to be an expert.
I have always just shared my experiences I've had with it over the chronograph or deer hunting with it.

With the .458 Win Mag I have personally achieved the following velocities, all chronographed by me:

Woodleigh 480gn = 2150fps
Sierra 300gn = 2650fps (starting load)
Woodleigh 500gn PP = 2220fps
Woodleigh 550gn = 2080fps
Woodleigh 450gn HYDRO = 2318fps

So while I have never shot elephant or buffalo with the .458, I have corresponded with people who have.
Some of these people have shot thousands with it - and they assure me that a 450-500gn premium grade solid projectile at 2150fps is entirely adequate for DG.
As I've managed to safely achieve that, I see no reason why my loads wouldn't be suitable for the job.
I've always shared my load data to anyone who's asked (following all safety precautions of course) and have always tried to help where I can.

Not an expert, just a .458 Win Mag tragic!

Just my 2 cents.

Russ

 

[Forrest Halley]

I have no experience with hunting buffalo or elephant and I have never claimed to be an expert.
I have always just shared my experiences I've had with it over the chronograph or deer hunting with it.

With the .458 Win Mag I have personally achieved the following velocities, all chronographed by me:

Woodleigh 480gn = 2150fps
Sierra 300gn = 2650fps (starting load)
Woodleigh 500gn PP = 2220fps
Woodleigh 550gn = 2080fps
Woodleigh 450gn HYDRO = 2318fps

That 500gr and the 450 gr Hydro are moving. There's not a lot that can stand up to that. 5471 ft-lbs and 5368 ft-lbs respectively. That 550 gr load needs some more gas mate. Hahaha only 5283 ft-lbs. It just can't hang with the others...

I've always shared my load data to anyone who's asked (following all safety precautions of course) and have always tried to help where I can.

Not an expert, just a .458 Win Mag tragic!

Just my 2 cents.

Russ

Sharing is caring! There is nothing tragic about a .458 excepting that it makes you feel as though all other calibers are somehow lesser. I should have bought one years ago when the ammunition was on the shelf and I started shooting a 3½" 12 gauge.

I'm not saying the Lott is necessary, but it's fun to have two big cartridges to play with in one gun.

I definitely agree it is a fun cartridge to deer hunt with. It's like you've always got enough energy for everything.

 

[Nhoro]

Mine is reamed to Lott. Idid that because it was basically free and it helped my action feed flat nose solids because the longer cartridge has better angles. So I shoot 515 gr peregrines at 2195 fps as well as the win mags that I gave above. The most recoil is the 450 gr at 2280 fps the others are more mild mannered. So you have to consider that, I think you can have too much recoil.

 

[TSIBINDI]

...Just a thought. Perhaps, if the .470NE had had the bad press the .458WM experienced, maybe there would be NO opposition to either cartridge.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Read what Kevin Robertson has to say about the 458 WM in Africa's Most Dangerous. I had one. 'Traded "up" to 416 Chatfield-Taylor (necked down 458 WM, 2450 fps.) The 458 will work at modest range, but even the factory ammo is only doing <2,100 fps. There are better cartridges for DG. Read what the Dr./PH has to say about 'em. (He recommends conversion to Lott, Wyatt or Ackley-that 0.3" longer case gets you +300 fps). My only advice-get Close (and make sure your PH has more gun!) The "trampoline effect" can be very real...I did see that one of the major mfrs more recently came out with a load that supposedly results in 2350 fps, but I've not seen any independent chrony tests (I've done a lot and the results generally don't add up to the numbers on the pretty boxes. One 458 box said 2,150 fps. (Chronograped at 2,030!) Hot handloads were 2,090.

 

[TSIBINDI]

...Kevin Robertson's book is an interesting read. So are books by Pierre van der Walt, Ron Thomson and Richard Harland. Two gentleman who are not, shall be say, not enamoured by the .458 WM, and two who by all accounts praise the .458 WM

Ron Thomson states in his book "Mahohboh"

"I have heard many hunters say that the .458 Magnum is useless and overrated. they say this is wrong with it and that is wrong with it." "Well, I can tell you I have fired many thousands of .458 Magnum bullets into all of Africa's Big Five (except the rhino) and I have never found the caliber wanting. But then I've experienced success with the weapon-and success breeds success. I have unconsciously over-looked the calibre's possible shortcomings? Whatever, I am comfortable with the.458 Magnum and I am confident when I hunt with it"

Mr harland states in his book "Ndlovu"

"Hundreds of very experienced hunters have downed tens of thousands of elephants, and other big game, with this round, including during the bad old days of dodgy ammo. Personally, I always had absolute confidence in all four of my .458's."

 

[Badboymelvin]

Read what Kevin Robertson has to say about the 458 WM in Africa's Most Dangerous. I had one. 'Traded "up" to 416 Chatfield-Taylor (necked down 458 WM, 2450 fps.) The 458 will work at modest range, but even the factory ammo is only doing <2,100 fps. There are better cartridges for DG. Read what the Dr./PH has to say about 'em. (He recommends conversion to Lott, Wyatt or Ackley-that 0.3" longer case gets you +300 fps). My only advice-get Close (and make sure your PH has more gun!) The "trampoline effect" can be very real...I did see that one of the major mfrs more recently came out with a load that supposedly results in 2350 fps, but I've not seen any independent chrony tests (I've done a lot and the results generally don't add up to the numbers on the pretty boxes. One 458 box said 2,150 fps. (Chronograped at 2,030!) Hot handloads were 2,090.

When talking about .458 velocity, I have corresponded with someone on another forum who has hunted quite a few elephant with the .458 Win Mag.
Some of these elephant were killed with the 500gn Woodleigh solid at 2050fps.
He said this would be the minimum he would use - but he has several dead elephant to prove that it worked.
His other 2 loads were the Woodleigh 500gn solid at 2140fps and the Northfork 450gn at around 2200fps.
He mentioned that the Woodleigh at this speed left nothing wanting and the Northfork's penetration was simply outstanding.
But the 500gn Woodleigh at 2050fps worked and if I was to personally hunt Africa I'd probably use the 480gn at 2150fps (nice and mild) or use the Hydro and load it back to around 2250fps.

Russ

 

[Pondoro]

I have shot 4 ele with .458...all died.. I have also shot them with a .475NE double and .375H&H.. To get some relevant opinion one need to shoot a lot of animals to reach some sort of conclusion.. The bullets I used in .458 were Woodl. and Hornady DGS solids..both performed well..

I also did a penetration test..made a 1 meter block of 2" by 8" planks and fired at it from 20 metres.. the rifles where ZKK602 with 25" barrel and double rifle in .475NE, 23" barrel. The ammo was factory Federal with 500 grain Wood. in .458 and modern Kynoch with 480 grain Wood. Guess what...the .458 penetrated slightly better, some 30mm.. Now I did not crono the .458 ammo but the Kynoch made 2158fps on average..

The .458 ammo was about 25 years old at the time, BTW..

 

[C.W. Richter]

When talking about .458 velocity, I have corresponded with someone on another forum who has hunted quite a few elephant with the .458 Win Mag.
Some of these elephant were killed with the 500gn Woodleigh solid at 2050fps.
He said this would be the minimum he would use - but he has several dead elephant to prove that it worked.
His other 2 loads were the Woodleigh 500gn solid at 2140fps and the Northfork 450gn at around 2200fps.
He mentioned that the Woodleigh at this speed left nothing wanting and the Northfork's penetration was simply outstanding.
But the 500gn Woodleigh at 2050fps worked and if I was to personally hunt Africa I'd probably use the 480gn at 2150fps (nice and mild) or use the Hydro and load it back to around 2250fps.

Russ

Yes, as the Woodleighs were the shortest bullets out there. You can cross them off the list as the company is now closed. So long as you don't exceed a certain (short) distance, it'll work. My son shot a nice buffalo at 20 yds w/ my .458 using factory Fusion 500 gr softs. You won't always get that opportunity. This data below (typical for factory ammo-and I got same using the newer, denser duplex powders TAC, AA, etc.) shows that it's questionable even at 50 yds. The solid works as there's no deformation/expansion and it just penetrates. Softs are going to have issues at distance. The factory fusion bullet expands to about a 1" mushroom-that's going to need some more V and E
to drive it home. The V is high 1700s at 100 yds and E in the 3000s (like a 3006). It'll do. There are better tools.

A	A	A	A	A
Range	Drop (inches)	Velocity	Energy	Wind drift (inches)	Time (milliseconds)
0	-1.4899	2032	4583	0.0000	0
50	0.4397	1921	4096	0.0000

 

[John Wasmuth]

Woodliegh ain’t closed. They’re getting things set back up to start production again.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Yes, as the Woodleighs were the shortest bullets out there. You can cross them off the list as the company is now closed. So long as you don't exceed a certain (short) distance, it'll work. My son shot a nice buffalo at 20 yds w/ my .458 using factory Fusion 500 gr softs. You won't always get that opportunity. This data below (typical for factory ammo-and I got same using the newer, denser duplex powders TAC, AA, etc.) shows that it's questionable even at 50 yds. The solid works as there's no deformation/expansion and it just penetrates. Softs are going to have issues at distance. The factory fusion bullet expands to about a 1" mushroom-that's going to need some more V and E
to drive it home. The V is high 1700s at 100 yds and E in the 3000s (like a 3006). It'll do. There are better tools.

Range	Drop (inches)	Velocity	Energy	Wind drift (inches)	Time (milliseconds)
A	A	A	A	A
0	-1.4899	2032	4583	0.0000	0
50	0.4397	1921	4096	0.0000

As mentioned, Woodleigh is planning on reopening which is not just great for .458 owners - it's great for all big game hunters!

As for using the shortest bullets in the .458, at the moment I personally use the 550gn and 450gn Woodleigh Hydro's in my rifle and the 550's have a length of 1.414" and the Hydro's are 1.377" in length.
I have had no problems with either load.
They are compressed loads and I know not everyone likes compressed loads - but I have used compressed loads from the early 80's with no problem.

I know someone in the Northern Territory who frequently hunts Water Buffalo with the 550gn Woodleigh SP in his .458 - at an identical velocity to what I get (2070 fps).
In fact he's the reason I started using the 550's and he's turned into sort of a mentor to me.
His knowledge on not just the .458 (which he loves) but other big bores is vast and I owe a lot to him.
The NT is very hot and he has experienced no problems with his load and he has dropped Water Buffalo out to 200m using the 550gn Woodleigh at this velocity.
On FB there is a page dedicated to the .458 Winchester Magnum and he has posted pictures and hunt reports on his hunts using this load (and others) on Water Buffalo if anyone wants to check them out.
He has stated that the .458 drops them emphatically - although I'm not sure how a Water Buffalo compares to a Cape Buffalo in regards to size and toughness etc...

I'm certainly not arguing with you or trying to convince you of anything, just having a conversation thats all - and I wish good hunting to you!

Oh! And I'm not just a fan of the .458, I love the .416RM and the .404 too - and would own either in a heartbeat.
A Winchester M70 in .416 or a custom Mauser in .404 are both dream rifles to me...

Russ

 

[Badboymelvin]

All this talk of the .458 has inspired me to get my backside into gear and load up some ammo!
Here's some 450gn Hydro's loaded in front of some BM2 (BENCHMARK) powder that I loaded up today.

 

[saswart]

My brother and Father shoots 458 Win Mag, used it successfully on Big Game. (I have a 458 Express, it is to a Lott, what a Lott is to the WM - same case, with Exp being 3 Inches, rather than 2.8 of the lott or 2.5 of the WM). They all shoot straight and has some punch to them.

On the 470 v 458 debate, clearly the powder issues that the 458 experiences caused it harm. I personally would not mind a 470NE, but on paper and when I see people shoot them at our BASA events, they seem to be the same as the 458's. I would venture to say they have less options...and that together with it being a double, is where I personally with no expert knowledge think the success lies.

As so many has already written and paraphrased from authors, you had and still have 1000's of 458 WM in Africa. Thus, more people shooting them. 470 NE, not so much. Thus one would hear more stories (bad stories such as powder issues) from a 458, than from a 470NE. Also the shooters who shoot 470NE, are not your standard hunter, game ranger, warden etc., they probably bought new ammunition a month prior to the African safari and tested it, whereas you have rangers, hunters etc. using old ammo in the 458WM.

There is no doubt, if you read above from the likes of Thompson et al. the caliber is fine, with today's high quality powder and bullets, it is more than enough.

Also the fact that the 2 are not really comparable, although the numbers indicate the same almost...is one is found in a classic bolt action, one in double. No matter what, a double has an aura and history around, and almost always owned by individuals who are seemed to be more wealthy and have more prominence. Apart from that I see no reason why a 470NE shot at a Elephant would be different than a 458 WM shot at same Elephant, same place same all...But the backup shot might be quicker on the Double and the WM would be quicker on the 3rd...

I know a lot of PH's that use this caliber or Lott's. This is the bigger caliber they use for clients who use their 375's.... You do not need a PH with a 500NE/500/505/577/600, a 458 from a competent shooting PH any day of the week over a too rich highly confident PH who thinks his 500NE will merely kill the animal on sight of the gun.

 

[Foxi]

is already amazing

.450 NE

.465 NE

.470 NE

all in the same weight and speed class.

Everything is fine and much praised.

When the same energies come out of a .458 WM barrel, it just sucks

 

[CBH Australia]

Yes, as the Woodleighs were the shortest bullets out there. You can cross them off the list as the company is now closed

That statement is incorrect!
The Woodleigh factory burned down and they are in the process of rebuilding and plan to reopen.
I have followed this closely and gone to the source on more than one occasion.

FYI, I also hunted with @Badboymelvin ladt week.