Good Gun Deals This Week

[Red Leg]

Yes. Sorry about that error. Cogswell & Harrison made a fair amount of p14/p17 404Jeffery rifles. Not pretty. In my opinion, overpriced due to the euphoria over 404J recently. The mauser 98 C&H rifles are higher quality and aesthetically pleasing.

I don't know. I certainly would agree Art Alphin had no aesthetic clue in creating a P17 based rifle (however functionally perfect), but I don't think we should be all that critical of what the Birmingham trade could do with a P14. This C&H is a .318 from between the wars. With its long barrel and lean lines it is as elegant a rifle as sits in the gun room. That said, the 98 is certainly a lot less work when trying to create a well proportioned rifle.

Perhaps because of my age, I also have a weak spot for the Browning Superposed design as built in Belgium. By modern standards, the action is far too deep and a gun is typically as much as a pound too heavy for the bore size. But the Belgian guns were very robust, and all that weight sits cleanly between the hands. As you suggest, I won't own any Browning built during the salt years. I further agree that Browning is now little more than a modern Charles Daly without a master production house like Lindner to build its best guns. It is somewhat amazing the Brand has maintained any cache'.

This is a great thread to maintain or periodically launch. Like @rookhawk, I too often see things in classified that deserve something other than a positive comment. This is a great way to discuss brands and what to look for or beware of in any previously owned firearm.

 

[CJW]

I don't know. I certainly would agree Art Alphin had no aesthetic clue in creating a P17 based rifle (however functionally perfect), but I don't think we should be all that critical of what the Birmingham trade could do with a P14. This C&H is a .318 from between the wars. With its long barrel and lean lines it is as elegant a rifle as sits in the gun room. That said, the 98 is certainly a lot less work when trying to create a well proportioned rifle.

Perhaps because of my age, I also have a weak spot for the Browning Superposed design as built in Belgium. By modern standards, the action is far too deep and a gun is typically as much as a pound too heavy for the bore size. But the Belgian guns were very robust, and all that weight sits cleanly between the hands. As you suggest, I won't own any Browning built during the salt years. I further agree that Browning is now little more than a modern Charles Daly without a master production house like Lindner to build its best guns. It is somewhat amazing the Brand has maintained any cache'.

This is a great thread to maintain or periodically launch. Like @rookhawk, I too often see things in classified that deserve something other than a positive comment. This is a great way to discuss brands and what to look for or beware of in any previously owned firearm.

Nice rifle. Have a full pic to show the proportions with the barrel?

The salt wood era guns are good guns but a person must do their due diligence to make sure they don't get a salt affected one. My $.02.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don't know. I certainly would agree Art Alphin had no aesthetic clue in creating a P17 based rifle (however functionally perfect), but I don't think we should be all that critical of what the Birmingham trade could do with a P14. This C&H is a .318 from between the wars. With its long barrel and lean lines it is as elegant a rifle as sits in the gun room. That said, the 98 is certainly a lot less work when trying to create a well proportioned rifle.

Perhaps because of my age, I also have a weak spot for the Browning Superposed design as built in Belgium. By modern standards, the action is far too deep and a gun is typically as much as a pound too heavy for the bore size. But the Belgian guns were very robust, and all that weight sits cleanly between the hands. As you suggest, I won't own any Browning built during the salt years. I further agree that Browning is now little more than a modern Charles Daly without a master production house like Lindner to build its best guns. It is somewhat amazing the Brand has maintained any cache'.

This is a great thread to maintain or periodically launch. Like @rookhawk, I too often see things in classified that deserve something other than a positive comment. This is a great way to discuss brands and what to look for or beware of in any previously owned firearm.

Red Leg,
I agree with everything you and @rookhawk have said about the Browning brand. It IS a brand with no real "home", so to speak. However, I will be bringing my mid '90s Browning A Bolt .338WM to Africa next June for a PG hunt. It has been my elk rifle since I bought it and at 9.5lbs scoped, it is a real pleasure to carry (even with a 25-30lb pack) and is an accurate shooter. Now, to find more ammo for it. LOL
CEH

 

[VertigoBE]

@rookhawk thanks again for starting this thread up. Would it also be in the spirit of the thread to post rifles/guns I found in gunshops, for you and others to comment on? Or would you prefer to keep this thread to those you specifically find interesting?

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk thanks again for starting this thread up. Would it also be in the spirit of the thread to post rifles/guns I found in gunshops, for you and others to comment on? Or would you prefer to keep this thread to those you specifically find interesting?

Absolutely, @VertigoBE . As long as its not listed on the AH forum, post it up for discussion. I think a lot of people will comment on the merits of the piece.

The only wrinkle I see in all of our valuation opinions will be due to inefficient markets. Winchesters sell cheap in Europe, Birmingham box locks sell cheap in the UK, Drillings sell cheap in Germany, and American best rifles sell for a premium in the USA. We all need to remember regional price variations and lower or higher supplies around the world.

 

[VertigoBE]

Alrighty then

I have two rifles that might be of interest to receive a critique, I do not have much more information than what I list below, but with a visit to the store, I could obtain more info of course:

An FN Mauser K98 in .375H&H with a scope, with an asking price of 1400€

A Dumoulin Centurion in 7x64 with a Zeiss scope, with an asking price of 3150€

The first one, might clean up to be a nice workhorse .375H&H, while the second one would be a close to perfect stalking and high seat rifle for Europe.

Looking forward to your comments

V.

 

[CJW]

Alrighty then

I have two rifles that might be of interest to receive a critique, I do not have much more information than what I list below, but with a visit to the store, I could obtain more info of course:

An FN Mauser K98 in .375H&H with a scope, with an asking price of 1400€
View attachment 441794

A Dumoulin Centurion in 7x64 with a Zeiss scope, with an asking price of 3150€
View attachment 441795

The first one, might clean up to be a nice workhorse .375H&H, while the second one would be a close to perfect stalking and high seat rifle for Europe.

Looking forward to your comments

V.

The FN is nice but the DC is nicer.

Where's the drooling emoji?

 

[Justin.]

Yhe FN is nice but the DC is nicer.

Where's the drooling emoji?

+1

 

[rookhawk]

Alrighty then

I have two rifles that might be of interest to receive a critique, I do not have much more information than what I list below, but with a visit to the store, I could obtain more info of course:

An FN Mauser K98 in .375H&H with a scope, with an asking price of 1400€
View attachment 441794

A Dumoulin Centurion in 7x64 with a Zeiss scope, with an asking price of 3150€
View attachment 441795

The first one, might clean up to be a nice workhorse .375H&H, while the second one would be a close to perfect stalking and high seat rifle for Europe.

Looking forward to your comments

V.

Great guns you've posted for contrast @VertigoBE . There are things that are wrong with the guns that effect value, so lets discuss them.

The first gun, the FN Mauser in 375HH was built for european, not african tastes. Please note how high the optic is in relation to the gun's action. Usually, you see this on older mausers becasue the flag safety needs to clear the scope. However, with the FN, it has its safety on the side adjacent the bolt handle so the reason the scope is so high is the dimensions of the exit objective lens. As such, the gun will kick like a mule and will not come to the eye for rapid target acquisition. The tradeoff is that it will have superior light gathering for hunting boar in twilight. That was the devil's bargain. The price of 1400EUR / $1575 USD reflects these problems. Redoing the claw mounts and a new optic would add $3500 to the cost of the gun so it doesn't make sense. Hence, its in the camp of being low-priced because it has design issues that merit discount. Nothing structurally wrong with an FN 98 in 375HH, but I'd pass on this example as you're paying a surcharge for mounts and optics you'd rather not have on such a gun.

Deal level: low to low-moderate (***assuming competently looked over for any latent defects or hidden repairs in person)

The second gun is a Dumoulin Belgian mauser. Dumoulin made tons of guns and our American readers will recognize them in the USA as being sold under Montgomery Wards, Sears, and JC Penney names on their utility models at $150 all the way up to high grade examples sold under the Abercrombie & Fitch brand for many thousands of dollars. Dumoulin made blue collar guns all the way up to best guns but in both cases, very high quality actions were the same. The gun is clearly built in the high grade to best grade end of the scale (can't tell the difference with one small photo) and was designed as a safari rifle. Quarter Rib. Dual Crossbolts. Perfectly executed low scope mounts and straight tube for fast target acquisition. Barrel band swivel. XXX wood. Ebony forend tip. Winchester 3-position side safety. Rose and scroll Belgian style engraving. Jeweled bolt body. German claw mounts. One standing and two folding sights. Yes, it has all the right things going on. The only design flaw I find with the gun is relatively easy to remedy: you do not want a lever release floor plate for a stalking rifle. I know removable magazines and quick-dump levers on floor plates are a point of pride for european's sentiments about safety to and from the field, but risk to function outweighs the benefit in the eyes of global and african preferences. At 3150 Euro / $3550 USD it seems to be very fairly priced.

Deal level: high-moderate to high (***assuming competently looked over for any latent defects or hidden repairs in person)


Which points out another truth of all collectible items, real estate, and firearms about "deals". The higher the price of the item, the less potential buyers that exist. Thus, when you start to go into the $3000, $5000, $10,000 guns you can find incredible deals because people won't budge with their money easily even if they can afford it. People are reckless with their money when its cheap and for those reasons, the "bad deal" .375 will probably sell long before the "good deal" 7x64. Even though the latter is only 2x the money and 40x the quality, people gravitate to cheap rather than good and buy two of the first gun and zero of the second.

Strongly recommend looking into #2 in person. Especially since it has a present-value $800 Zeiss scope that is very functional already mounted in claws.

 

[Red Leg]

Because I am excited by it, I'll jump in. I love the Centurion - a lot. The Centurions were Dumoulin's "best quality" rifle - essentially bespoke custom rifles built on either 98 or Sako actions, and this one has a '98 action and lots of tasteful bells and whistles. I am confident such a rifle would run you in the north of 15K euro to have built today. This is the current Blue Book's comment. The one you are looking at has numerous exceptional (and certainly expensive) design upgrades.

ENTURION MODEL
.270 Win. through .458 Win. cals., 21 1/2, 24, or 25 1/2 in. barrels, French walnut stock with rosewood forearm tip and pistol grip cap, no sights, essentially custom made with Sako (disc.) or Mauser action, can be ordered with custom wood.
Prices for this model start at €13,000.

Stylistically, it is particularly desirable because it is built with the lines of a light express rifle rather than something more Continental. It's only negative that I can see in the photos is the 1-inch scope. That is a very fine Zeiss that will serve very well. Its only negative is that it will not have quite the light gathering power of a modern 30mm of the same quality. Because of the positioning of the claw mounts, should you ever want to upgrade, it will need to be another straight tube scope. If not Belgium, there are several German gunsmiths who could easily build and fit another set of rings.

If it is as nice in person as it is in the photo, I would race out of the shop with that rifle before the seller has a change of heart.

Like @rookhawk, I am unmoved by the .375. Looks like something built by folks who understood a highseat rifle but were somewhat confused by African, and certainly DG requirements.

 

[rookhawk]

Because I am excited by it, I'll jump in. I love the Centurion - a lot. The Centurions were Dumoulin's "best quality" rifle - essentially bespoke custom rifles built on either 98 or Sako actions, and this one has a '98 action and lots of tasteful bells and whistles. I am confident such a rifle would run you in the north of 15K euro to have built today. This is the current Blue Book's comment. The one you are looking at has numerous exceptional (and certainly expensive) design upgrades.

ENTURION MODEL
.270 Win. through .458 Win. cals., 21 1/2, 24, or 25 1/2 in. barrels, French walnut stock with rosewood forearm tip and pistol grip cap, no sights, essentially custom made with Sako (disc.) or Mauser action, can be ordered with custom wood.
Prices for this model start at €13,000.

Stylistically, it is particularly desirable because it is built with the lines of a light express rifle rather than something more Continental. It's only negative that I can see in the photos is the 1-inch scope. That is a very fine Zeiss that will serve very well. Its only negative is that it will not have quite the light gathering power of a modern 30mm of the same quality. Because of the positioning of the claw mounts, should you ever want to upgrade, it will need to be another straight tube scope. If not Belgium, there are several German gunsmiths who could easily build and fit another set of rings.

If it is as nice in person as it is in the photo, I would race out of the shop with that rifle before the seller has a change of heart.

Like @rookhawk, I am unmoved by the .375. Looks like something built by folks who understood a highseat rifle but were somewhat confused by African, and certainly DG requirements.

@Red Leg a chorus of opinions are really useful. I PM'd @VertigoBE my opinion on US private party and retail value. Care to post your opinion here and then I'll post the same, see how far off we might be?

 

[Red Leg]

Stateside? Basic Dumoulin DG calibers start around 6500 USD and will run into the high teens depending on model and what the seller thinks a buyer might pay. I would guess most of their basic DG rifles actually retail 8 - 12K. A Centurion like this in .416 would list 16-20K. Most general hunting calibers will retail 1500 to 6K, again depending on the model. I think this rifle would be priced by most dealers at 6-8K here in the States.

If it were my checkbook, I would hope to hope to snag it for just under 5.

And I do not presume to be authoritative on the subject. This represents what I have seen and what I would expect for a rifle of this apparent quality.

Your turn!

 

[rookhawk]

Stateside? Basic Dumoulin DG calibers start around 6500 USD and will run into the high teens depending on model and what the seller thinks a buyer might pay. I would guess most of their basic DG rifles actually retail 8 - 12K. A Centurion like this in .416 would list 16-20K. Most general hunting calibers will retail 1500 to 6K, again depending on the model. I think this rifle would be priced by most dealers at 6-8K here in the States.

If it were my checkbook, I would hope to hope to snag it for just under 5.

And I do not presume to be authoritative on the subject. This represents what I have seen and what I would expect for a rifle of this apparent quality.

Your turn!

I wrote @VertigoBE the following:

"If I were to appraise it stateside and there were no defects, I'd say it would sell private party for $4800-$5500 and a high-end retailer would ask $5800-$6800 for the gun.

Seems our appraisals were completely in alignment.

 

[VertigoBE]

@rookhawk and @Red Leg , thanks a lot for your invaluable opinion! I'll be going to check it out, with my checkbook in my pocket.

Now, what should I look out for? Heavy damage like pitting inside the barrel I could see, cracks in the wood too, but I suspect this 30 something year old rifle will have neither. But what else should I keep an eye out for?

Cheers,

V.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk and @Red Leg , thanks a lot for your invaluable opinion! I'll be going to check it out, with my checkbook in my pocket.

Now, what should I look out for? Heavy damage like pitting inside the barrel I could see, cracks in the wood too, but I suspect this 30 something year old rifle will have neither. But what else should I keep an eye out for?

Cheers,

V.

-Damage to the crown
-Throat erosion or pitting (highly unlikely in this example, but check)
-Excessive headspace (not applicable to this gun...it just wasn't used enough)
-Cracked/repaired pinned wood at wrist or tang of the rifle
-Cracked/repaired/signs of epoxy around the magazine well at the bottom (thinnest place where cracks form)
-Significant primer marks or erosion on the bolt face.
-Test the safety for function. It should require a slight amount of force. That force should be the sensation that the safety is intercepting the cocking piece and moving it off the sear by .018" or so.
-flattened engraving from polishing and rebluing of barrel or action
-Buggered screws indicating the gun has been tampered with

Just some of the things I look at in person

 

[Tucketed]

@rookhawk thank you for this post, will be very interesting to follow.

 

[Dakota300]

I guess I do and don't get where you're coming from. I don't care who puts their name on a rifle as long as it's built with good parts. For example my JC Higgins 30/06. FN action and Hi Standard barrel with a random name on it. Nothing special to look at but high quality.

I'm not sure you would find one of these in an FN for 1/4-1/2 the price. The lawyers did a good job building them. I think it would be ridiculous for a person to look past a nice one.

Edit to add: This is my '62 safari in 458 WM.

View attachment 441628
View attachment 441629

That is a beautiful early Safari Grade!

 

[kdenn]

Continue to be in awe of the collective knowledge and wisdom on this forum and I appreciate how easily and freely it is given. Thanks to all.

 

[Randy F]

Continue to be in awe of the collective knowledge and wisdom on this forum and I appreciate how easily and freely it is given. Thanks to all.

+1

 

[Edster]

WOW 3 pages in and the knowledge is amazing. Look forward to learning a bunch more. Meanwhile the wife is confiscating my CC’s and check book!!